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Featured Who created all things: God or the Son?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Soapy, May 24, 2022.

  1. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning GOD created [all things]…’

    John 1:1 - ‘In the beginning [THE WORD] created all things’

    You all know the full verses … But clearly there is a problem - the two claims do not agree!

    Who, exactly, is ‘God’?

    Where did the WORD come from?

    We know the ALMIGHTY word spoken BY God that created a things in the beginning, don’t we? What was it? Was it not: ‘Let there be light!’

    Specifically, who are these words attributed to: God, or The Word…

    Or is it sensibly just, ‘The word of God’, that created all things?

    Reading further in Genesis, you will find absolutely no reference ‘The Word’… (as in ‘Son of God’ / Jesus)… is that strange seeing that certain Christian groups clearly claim that it was ‘Jesus’ who created all things (‘God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.’ (John 1:3)

    Not only does that verse alter the creation story in Genesis but it puts in place an entity that was never mentioned in Genesis. In fact, never mentioned in any verse anywhere in the whole of the Old Testament.

    Here, in John 1: 1-3 we have an entirely new ‘person’ who is also claimed to be GOD… ‘The Word’.

    But, again, nothing of ‘The Word’ is stated in the Old Testament. And even after Jesus does appear as the messiah, he himself says nothing about having created anything (carried out the greatest event in the whole of world activity!)

    I do ponder, though, that the term, ‘Father’, means: ‘Creator, Bringer into being, Giver of life’, yet Jesus (or ‘the word’) is not attributed to this term. Instead, an entity of God, exactly called, ‘The Father’, is attributed to creation!

    In fact, BOTH ‘GOD’ and ‘The Father’ are stated as ‘Creating all things’, which logically the two go together!! AND, Jesus, on appearing as a man on earth (that it’s claimed he created by some Christian groups) clearly states that he can do nothing except what he sees God (or the Father) doing first. In fact, he, Jesus was ‘Taught by God/The Father how and what to do and say’.

    So, how is it that Jesus/The Son is supposed to have carried out the greatest event of all time (!!) and yet has to be taught how to exist in that event? This is a problem when we are expected to believe that Jesus pre-existed, and is therefore a Spirit (that’s a problem in itself as the only spirits we know of at the time of creation are God and the angels - and we know God created the angels - or did Jesus/the Son/the word?) and not a man (human/flesh being).

    Can anyone throw light on this huge anomaly - a conundrum of almighty importance in Christian scriptural matters?
     
  2. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think you are taking "the word" to literally. The "word" is not something which exist or an entity, its more like someone saying "I have the power" or something, and then someone comes along and ask what, who and where did this "power" come from. Its a descriptive word for God's capabilities or authority.

    Jesus as far as I know, never claim to be God or even his equal. He is the son and God the father. There are very few verses in my opinion, which could be interpret to mean this and in support of the holy trinity, but in my opinion it is a far fetched conclusion, compared to when you read the bible as a whole and in that case I would say that it is very poorly supported.

    But for some reason, some people seem to value having to read more into the texts, than when Jesus straight up say that no one will be saved except by God or through him, which at least to me, doesn't refer to simply believing in Jesus, but to do the will of the Father, both things which again Jesus clearly state is the case, people that comes to him and ask if they didn't do what he said and followed him? etc. He answers that he don't know them and only those who do the will of his father will be saved. And this is also confirmed by God himself, when he say that no one besides him that can save you.

    If Jesus were God, then he would be lying about it, which would be a sin. And I doubt any believer would accept that God sinned, as that would pretty much ruin everything.
     
  3. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    I am not quite grasping your full thought. Or maybe I just don't follow the logic you are presenting.

    God = 'elohiym - Pural and singular. Let US make man in our image. Let US create.

    To simplify a very complex subject, when I create--is it my soul or my body or both. Both are different in materiality and purpose yet both are one and thus "And the Word was God" even as the Father is God but completely one in essence.

    The biggest hurdle people go through is when The Word left behind His power and authority to live as completely man and equate Him in view of man's essence as completely God.

    Like I said, very complex but willing to walk through it to the best of my human capacity.
     
  4. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    The Holy Trinity. :cool::)

    (It's in the Nicene creed)
     
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  5. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    I beg you NOT to bring CREEDS into scriptural debates as they are, in fact, just the same as an opinion - a badly worded opinion, to boot!

    Please, just from scriptures - not creeds - anyone can dredge up something someone said elsewhere, E.g. The gospel of Thomas, or a Anti-theist rambling, but it would not be Christian scriptural writings.
     
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  6. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    KenS, I think you got that right… As I know you are trinitarian I can safely say that you are confused by truth and thus naturally cannot follow the logic.

    However, I can inform you that there is confusion, not with MY logic or by the logic I asked for, but that the very question I am asking IS requesting to resolve the confusion of WHY there are two counter dedications to the creation: one to GOD (aka: the Father (Creator)) and the other to ‘The Sin’ or ‘The Word OF GOD’ who can only do what he first sees the Father (aka: God) doing and what God tells him to do!

    The clue to the understanding is in the question: ‘Who created or which is that created…?’

    God was speaking to the angels. The understanding here is that ‘IMAGE’ is the characteristics of a supreme being: Love, Power, intelligence, Freedom of Will, self-awareness, justice, inventiveness, high knowledge, Goodness, Righteousness… ability to rule, to judge, to condemn, to praise…

    All these things ANGELS also possess - In fact, you will read that man is made ‘a little lower than the angels’… saying that GOD possesses completeness of all in the list (and more, of course!), the angels possess less than God -but yet still greater than Mankind.

    By the way, KenS, making a BODY is not a hard thing for an angel. A human body is no more difficult to make than an expert baker baking a cake - THE BODY of a human being IS BUT A ANIMATABLE VEHICLE for the SPIRIT of the human that is put into it.

    You will, of course, note that in the final part of the creation of human being it is GOD that blew the Enlivening Spirit into the INERT, UNLIVENED, NON-LIVING body of the man…

    And, as I keep asking from others: Since when did ‘US’, and ‘WE’, mean THREE PERSONS where there is no indication priorly to a mention of three person (or two OTHERS)?
    KenS, KenS, KenS, YOUR MIND thinks up a things (Creative/Inventive) and after checking possibility and probability, worthiness, criteria, fitness, longevity, etc (Judging) INSTRUCTS your body to ACT.

    Two: Your SPIRIT and Your BODY. The body is a servant (or slave) to the SPIRIT that controls it.
    Two: God is the controlling (Ruling) SPIRIT that instructs the Angels to ACT! All God’s actions are carried out by the BODY (army /myriad) of angels God has at his disposal.

    At no time did Jesus (the word, the son) ever stake a claim of having anything to do with the creation event. Yet scriptures has GOD saying that he created all things or explicitly that the Father created all things. There is no EXPLICIT verse saying Jesus / Son / the word created anything!

    (Understand that by ‘The word’ I’m saying the trinity claim… since I also said that IT WAS THE Spoken / uttered word OF GOD that indeed, did create all things!)

    I hear all the time that ‘The word’ left behind / emptied himself / gave up being God in heaven … but down the line those same persons claim that the word DID NOT give up being God, did not empty himself of being God, did not leave off being God… but MERELY veiled his powers of being God, stayed being God, was 100% God… Which is it?

    The main problem: GOD CANNOT STOP BEING GOD… God is immutable! Trinitarians seem to forget their vocabulary and terminology as and when if suits them! Nothing PERFECT can become IMPERFECT (else it was never ‘perfect’ in the first place!!). Scriptures states that ‘The Son was PERFECTED’ … meaning he was previously NOT PERFECT (remember the question: Is Jesus ‘Good’? Well, Jesus was subject to sin - though he did not sin. God CANNOT sin. Difference: Jesus is man, imperfect… God is righteous Spirit, incapable of sinning. Cannot be tempted to sin: Temptation is the desire to acquire something not already held in hand… what did Satan try to tempt Jesus with, at least three things but likely more (unwritten).
    I look forward to your responses.
     
  7. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is God. Full stop. The three are One. I'm not seeing a problem.
     
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  8. Starlight

    Starlight Well-Known Member

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    According to most christians God the father created the world through Jesus.

    Colossians 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 6 him all things were created, lin heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. he is the head of the body, the church.

    Hebrews 1:2 Long ago, at many times and ain many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, bin these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

    John 1:3
    All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
     
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  9. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    To be frank, the below almost sounds like you already have your position and aren't really seeking a discussion. Trolling? Well... we all do it so that's ok :)

    No, you can't say that. It is your presentation that was confusing. Maybe your can restate it more clearly? :)

    I know it is logical for you... but the reader may not be following your logic.

    As we see it, there isn't a confusion. I mentioned the issue that most people creat, which you are very clearly demonstrating here, where you are equating the Word made manifest- Jesus (while on the earth) as the same when He was in and part of the Godhead.

    The Word came as fully man (Philippians 2) to model what man was suppose to do and how God wanted him to do. (The works that I do you will do also). He also came as man to operate legally as dictated in Genesis 1. (I assume you have some knowledge of what I am talking about but let me know if I went too far). So, as man, He was not in the state and composition of The Word

    So, no confusion on my part in as much as The Word is part of the Godhead (Father, Word and Holy Spirit) - and co-Creator of all that we see.

    A lot of assumptions here with no scriptural support as well as misapplications of scripture.

    Man was made a little lower than the angels can be interpreted two ways.

    1) Created lower than angels when man sinned since at the end it is man that will judge the angels and angels were created to serve man. (Scriptural support available upon request)
    2) A translation error since this word for angels is Eloyhim - which can also be translated God. Man created below God but above angels

    Yes, angels are powerful.

    As far as "When there were three". Well... since the beginning of course as He has stated and declared it throughout the word.

    Isaiah 48: “Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last. 13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens;
    when I summon them, they all stand up together.
    ...
    16 “Come near me and listen to this: “From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there.”And now the Sovereign Lord (Father) has sent me (The Word), endowed with his Spirit. (Holy Spirit)

    and other places
    There are just too many scriptures that contradict you position (some which you have already enumerated which is why you mentioned that you were confused)

    Again, the problem you create is when you try to make The Word the same as the parenthetical time frame of 33 years years when He appeared as man. So your points are quite mute.
     
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  10. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Sorry. but the "Word" was an entity that did exist. The Bible says the Word became fleshand dwelt among men. How can something that did not exist become flesh?
     
  11. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    This creed is not in the Bible. It was written by men.
     
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  12. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Except that Jesus said the Father was greater. How can all three be one if one of them is greater than another?
     
  13. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I think it may be wrong interpretation to think Jesus is the word, because Bible doesn't directly say so. And I think it is important to notice, Bible says things were created through him. I think it means God used Jesus to create things.
     
  14. paradox

    paradox Active Member

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    Old testament about word of God ex:
    Isaiah 40:8
    Psalms 33:6
    Judith 16:14

    Wisdom was created before anything else: Proverbs 8:22
    It was created by the word of God: Sirach 24:3

    God created by word rather than by power of by hands or by whatever Genesis 1:3
    Jesus indeed pre-existed his presence on earth: Revelation 3:14

    What it takes is to harvest verses that unravel the meaning of the "word" trough bible

    Father and Son are one: John 10:30
     
    #14 paradox, May 24, 2022
    Last edited: May 24, 2022
  15. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    This is were things become "messy" in my opinion and a good example of why I think a lot of people do support the holy trinity, because Jesus is depicted as a quite different "person" than in the other gospels.

    The "word" here refer to Jesus as far as I understand it. But my problem with it (not saying that its wrong) is that we don't see this in any of the other gospels except here.

    And personally, I find it strange that such important information is not mentioned in any other gospel and in general in John compared to the others, it almost appear to be a revised version of the others, if that makes sense. Sort of like "the first version" weren't interesting enough.

    If you take Jesus with Pilate and compare that between Matthew and John:

    Matthew 27:11-14
    11 - Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus said, “You have said so.”
    12 - But when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, he gave no answer.
    13 - Then Pilate said to him, “Do you not hear how many things they testify against you?”
    14 - But he gave him no answer, not even to a single charge, so that the governor was greatly amazed.

    John 18:33-40
    33 - So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?”
    34 - Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?”
    35 - Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?”
    36 - Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
    37 - Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”
    38 - Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” After he had said this, he went back outside to the Jews and told them, “I find no guilt in him.
    39 - But you have a custom that I should release one man for you at the Passover. So do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?”
    40 - They cried out again, “Not this man, but Barabbas!” Now Barabbas was a robber.


    There is a huge difference between the Jesus in Matthew and that of John. If you look at how Matthew depicts Jesus, he hardly talks, yet in John, Jesus is almost making a speech, which again seem to suggest the idea that he is God, with comments like "My kingdom is not of this world...." which we don't see in any of the other ones.

    So all in all, I think it depends a lot on which Gospel people "trust" the most as being the correct one. But again, personally I find John to stand out from the rest, as if the author wanted or had an agenda with Jesus. And given that the other Gospels are dated earlier than John, I simply would expect more of these extremely important information to have been in those.

    If Jesus is God, why is that not mentioned at all in these gospels, I find that very strange.
     
  16. Bree

    Bree Active Member

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    You could ask the question.... Could the Word have created anything on his own?
     
  17. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Non-debating member when I can help myself

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    In my religion, God created the Primal Will, or first intellect, which could be also be called the Logos, which here is translated as the Word of God. This in turn created the world. Jesus Christ was the perfect mirror so to speak of this Primal Will in my religion according to how I understand it.

    But in the end it doesn't matter. These are just theological disputes. What is important is that we live up to all of our teachings, in my opinion. Among those teachings is to love one another.
     
  18. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    You mean like: ‘The builder used a contractor to build his house’

    But in one place we say “The builder built his house’.

    Later, we say it was the contractor who built the house.

    Is that it?
     
  19. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    This place is a place to discuss these matters. Outside of here we can settle ourselves with our own belief.
     
  20. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    The word is the utterance of God. If is GOD’s utterance …

    Where does the word come from but the mouth of the speaker! Who is the speaker?

    If a king utters an edict to kill all the Jews, that is the word of the king. The emissary commissioned to delivery the edict to the nation delivers it perfectly - He is, again, the word of the king.

    In the creation, God, called ‘Father (which itself means ‘Creator’) uttered an order for the world to be created. And it was so.

    Later God said he would send a saviour because of the fall of man. He issued an edict that man is to be saved. And lo! A messiah was sent with the message which was delivered perfectly: the word of God.

    The two utterances are not related to the same person as I see it which is why the present ‘The word/Jesus created all things’ is confusing to me.

    It becomes even more confusing if it is to be believed that Jesus, himself, WAS GOD who issued that word!

    During my research I got to understand that the problem is the misinterpretation of the word (or term) ‘God’.

    I found that as well as referring to an entity of greatness, the word itself means: ‘Mighty, powerful, monumental, greatest, most high, …’ superlatives of that kind … Therefore it is perfectly ok to say that the word of God IS GOD because if uses both interpretations: ‘The utterance of the most mighty one is itself most mighty!’
     
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