Who created all things: God or the Son?

[Soapy]

Old testament about word of God ex:
Isaiah 40:8
Psalms 33:6
Judith 16:14

All three verses qualify the fact that the ‘word’ of God is his spoken utterance - not a ‘person’!

Thank you (I did mean that ‘the word: Son/Jesus’ is not mentioned)

Wisdom was created before anything else: Proverbs 8:22

Wisdom was ‘possessed by God’… Wisdom is female in gendered terms and wisdom did not DO the CREATION!

It was created by the word of God: Sirach 24:3

I don’t know what ‘Sirach’ is but it’s true that ‘Creation was created by the WORD of God’.

The argument is that trinitarian Christians claim that ‘The word of God’ is the Son of God / pre-existent Jesus!

My query is that how can pre-existent Jesus be GOD AND be the word of God when GOD uttered HIS word that created (as you point out in the three example verses … that show the creation is by the voice of God!)

God created by word rather than by power of by hands or by whatever Genesis 1:3

Good expression but I think we can forego that GOD does not have ‘hands’!!!…
A king does not use his HANDS to build a city but we do say in metaphoric terms: ‘The city was built by his (The king’s) own hands.’ Meaning that all the plans, layout, material, decisions,… were made by the king ALONE!!… (‘Hand: Power / Strength; in particular ‘right hand’)

Jesus indeed pre-existed his presence on earth: Revelation 3:14

Wow! That verse is so convoluted by interpretations… which one to pick!!!?

The truth: Jesus calls himself the ruler over the creation of God. We know this because Satan tempted Jesus to acquire it by underhanded means so he wouldn’t have to suffer death! Jesus declined and went the way the Father dictated: ‘[Father,] Not my way but yours!’

I don’t understand how you, one moment present one truth, only to, in the very next presentation, miscue and say the complete opposite!!

Father and Son are one: John 10:30

In regard to the debate here, that makes no sense - there’s not even a context attached to show what it is meant to mean concerning creation (the subject of this thread!)

 

[firedragon]

I am not quite grasping your full thought. Or maybe I just don't follow the logic you are presenting.

God = 'elohiym - Pural and singular. Let US make man in our image. Let US create.

To simplify a very complex subject, when I create--is it my soul or my body or both. Both are different in materiality and purpose yet both are one and thus "And the Word was God" even as the Father is God but completely one in essence.

The biggest hurdle people go through is when The Word left behind His power and authority to live as completely man and equate Him in view of man's essence as completely God.

Like I said, very complex but willing to walk through it to the best of my human capacity.

How come the "word" concept you are speaking of is not represented in the Synopitics but only John? Is it that the latest gospel writer knew more than the earliest?

 

[Bree]

The word is the utterance of God. If is GOD’s utterance …

Where does the word come from but the mouth of the speaker! Who is the speaker?

a spokesman can speak on behalf of someone and they can relate the words that come from the other.

If a king utters an edict to kill all the Jews, that is the word of the king. The emissary commissioned to delivery the edict to the nation delivers it perfectly - He is, again, the word of the king.

In the creation, God, called ‘Father (which itself means ‘Creator’) uttered an order for the world to be created. And it was so.

Later God said he would send a saviour because of the fall of man. He issued an edict that man is to be saved. And lo! A messiah was sent with the message which was delivered perfectly: the word of God.

The two utterances are not related to the same person as I see it which is why the present ‘The word/Jesus created all things’ is confusing to me.

Jesus is called 'The Word' because he is such a spokesman.

He carry's out the will of God.

But there is an interesting clue that could be drawn from reading the passage of scripture of Proverbs 8:22

22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,+
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.+
23 From ancient times* I was installed,+
From the start, from times earlier than the earth.+
24 When there were no deep waters,+ I was brought forth,*
When there were no springs overflowing with water.
25 Before the mountains were set in place,
Before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields
Or the first clods of earth’s soil.
27 When he prepared the heavens,+ I was there;
When he marked out the horizon* on the surface of the waters,+


If anyone was with God in the beginning of creation of all things, I think most christians would agree that person could only have been Jesus Christ.

 

[paradox]

All three verses qualify the fact that the ‘word’ of God is his spoken utterance - not a ‘person’!

These 3 verses (out of many in OT) unravel the meaning of "word" of God.
A problem is that you stuck with your rushed explanation that "word" IS God (a person of God) according to gospel of John, now you look for biblical explanation that would back this, but there is no such explanation, explanation that can be found in OT and NT is in fact contradictory to your view.
With a bit of scriptural research you'll have no other option but to accept that.

I don’t know what ‘Sirach’ is

Sirach is a wisdom book that is part of the bible according to canon.

The argument is that trinitarian Christians claim that ‘The word of God’ is the Son of God / pre-existent Jesus!

I never heard that word of God is the son of God, gospel of John says "and the word became flesh", which means the word of the father made possible for his son to become man, the Father sent the Son, Jesus didn't come on it's own.

My query is that how can pre-existent Jesus be GOD AND be the word of God when GOD uttered HIS word that created (as you point out in the three example verses … that show the creation is by the voice of God!)

Jesus is not "word", how would you scripturally back up that Jesus is "word"?

Wow! That verse is so convoluted by interpretations… which one to pick!!!?

There are many interpretations of entire bible, but we know truth can be and is just one, logically there can't be 2 or more truths, therefore only one interpretation can be correct.
So how do you learn which interpretation is true?

From what I see you're unable to be 100% certain, anyone can claim "I'm certain", but in hearth no one can be.

I accept the interpretation of the Catholic church to be correct, not because I'm catholic but rather because I see the church as most committed toward defending the truth against heresies throughout 2000 years of history; heresy is nothing but misinterpretation whether intentional or accidental.

What is interesting is that even the church gone wrong with interpretation, ex. by saying that earth is flat, which can be backed up by scriptures but is fallacy because interpretation was taken literary rather than figuratively; surely today there are arguments for and against but what is good that the church corrected the problem unlike heresies which never correct theirs issues.

Therefore if church gone wrong it's no surprise that we could go wrong as well even more, especially in places such as forums where everybody defends their position just because nobody is willing to accept defeat, how sad.

I don’t understand how you, one moment present one truth, only to, in the very next presentation, miscue and say the complete opposite!!
"Father and Son are one: John 10:30"
In regard to the debate here, that makes no sense - there’s not even a context attached to show what it is meant to mean concerning creation (the subject of this thread!)

There is no context attached yes, I think the context is this Colossians 1:16

For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers;
all things were created through him and for him.

 

[Kenny]

How come the "word" concept you are speaking of is not represented in the Synopitics but only John? Is it that the latest gospel writer knew more than the earliest?

Of course, we can only theorize as to why since none of the gospels exactly say why they wrote it (other than Luke).

What we do know is that the revelation of all the purpose behind the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was progressive. Like saying, "Ohhhh, NOW I understand what he meant when he said".

John was the only one who had such and encounter with God that the book of Revelation was given to him on the Island of Patmos. He actually ascended to Heaven.

He received the revelation of Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come;"

So saw things that none of the other Apostles had seen. He also was the one who lived the longest as well as the one who understood the God of Love the most. Maybe time with experience has a way of deepening one's understanding.

In my view, he was also the one who already knew what had been written by three people and, perhaps, thought it to be redundant to add a fourth on the same lines.

 

[Colt]

Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning GOD created [all things]…’

John 1:1 - ‘In the beginning [THE WORD] created all things’

You all know the full verses … But clearly there is a problem - the two claims do not agree!

Who, exactly, is ‘God’?

Where did the WORD come from?

We know the ALMIGHTY word spoken BY God that created a things in the beginning, don’t we? What was it? Was it not: ‘Let there be light!’

Specifically, who are these words attributed to: God, or The Word…

Or is it sensibly just, ‘The word of God’, that created all things?

Reading further in Genesis, you will find absolutely no reference ‘The Word’… (as in ‘Son of God’ / Jesus)… is that strange seeing that certain Christian groups clearly claim that it was ‘Jesus’ who created all things (‘God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.’ (John 1:3)

Not only does that verse alter the creation story in Genesis but it puts in place an entity that was never mentioned in Genesis. In fact, never mentioned in any verse anywhere in the whole of the Old Testament.

Here, in John 1: 1-3 we have an entirely new ‘person’ who is also claimed to be GOD… ‘The Word’.

But, again, nothing of ‘The Word’ is stated in the Old Testament. And even after Jesus does appear as the messiah, he himself says nothing about having created anything (carried out the greatest event in the whole of world activity!)

I do ponder, though, that the term, ‘Father’, means: ‘Creator, Bringer into being, Giver of life’, yet Jesus (or ‘the word’) is not attributed to this term. Instead, an entity of God, exactly called, ‘The Father’, is attributed to creation!

In fact, BOTH ‘GOD’ and ‘The Father’ are stated as ‘Creating all things’, which logically the two go together!! AND, Jesus, on appearing as a man on earth (that it’s claimed he created by some Christian groups) clearly states that he can do nothing except what he sees God (or the Father) doing first. In fact, he, Jesus was ‘Taught by God/The Father how and what to do and say’.

So, how is it that Jesus/The Son is supposed to have carried out the greatest event of all time (!!) and yet has to be taught how to exist in that event? This is a problem when we are expected to believe that Jesus pre-existed, and is therefore a Spirit (that’s a problem in itself as the only spirits we know of at the time of creation are God and the angels - and we know God created the angels - or did Jesus/the Son/the word?) and not a man (human/flesh being).

Can anyone throw light on this huge anomaly - a conundrum of almighty importance in Christian scriptural matters?

God created Creator Sons who create their own worlds.

 

[firedragon]

Of course, we can only theorize as to why since none of the gospels exactly say why they wrote it (other than Luke).

What we do know is that the revelation of all the purpose behind the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was progressive. Like saying, "Ohhhh, NOW I understand what he meant when he said".

John was the only one who had such and encounter with God that the book of Revelation was given to him on the Island of Patmos. He actually ascended to Heaven.

He received the revelation of Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come;"

So saw things that none of the other Apostles had seen. He also was the one who lived the longest as well as the one who understood the God of Love the most. Maybe time with experience has a way of deepening one's understanding.

In my view, he was also the one who already knew what had been written by three people and, perhaps, thought it to be redundant to add a fourth on the same lines.

So your point is the writer of John, being the latest, took several decades to understand what he wishes not write. In that case he was not "inspired divinely". It was his own work based on his personal understanding that took time for him to figure out.

Then his gospel is not historical, not inspired, but is his own understanding. That was your explanation.

Anyway, do you have any reasoning based on the text itself that John knew all three synoptics like you said in your last statement? Remember, reasoning based on the text, not just post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Thanks.

 

[Kenny]

So your point is the writer of John, being the latest, took several decades to understand what he wishes not write. In that case he was not "inspired divinely". It was his own work based on his personal understanding that took time for him to figure out.

Then his gospel is not historical, not inspired, but is his own understanding. That was your explanation.

Anyway, do you have any reasoning based on the text itself that John knew all three synoptics like you said in your last statement? Remember, reasoning based on the text, not just post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Thanks.

Hmmmmm... no.

But I can see why you want to see it that way.

How do you know when he got the revelation vs when he wrote it?

 

[blü 2]

Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning GOD created [all things]…’

John 1:1 - ‘In the beginning [THE WORD] created all things’

You all know the full verses … But clearly there is a problem - the two claims do not agree!

Who, exactly, is ‘God’?

Where did the WORD come from?

We know the ALMIGHTY word spoken BY God that created a things in the beginning, don’t we? What was it? Was it not: ‘Let there be light!’

Specifically, who are these words attributed to: God, or The Word…

Or is it sensibly just, ‘The word of God’, that created all things?

Reading further in Genesis, you will find absolutely no reference ‘The Word’… (as in ‘Son of God’ / Jesus)… is that strange seeing that certain Christian groups clearly claim that it was ‘Jesus’ who created all things (‘God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.’ (John 1:3)

Not only does that verse alter the creation story in Genesis but it puts in place an entity that was never mentioned in Genesis. In fact, never mentioned in any verse anywhere in the whole of the Old Testament.

Here, in John 1: 1-3 we have an entirely new ‘person’ who is also claimed to be GOD… ‘The Word’.

But, again, nothing of ‘The Word’ is stated in the Old Testament. And even after Jesus does appear as the messiah, he himself says nothing about having created anything (carried out the greatest event in the whole of world activity!)

I do ponder, though, that the term, ‘Father’, means: ‘Creator, Bringer into being, Giver of life’, yet Jesus (or ‘the word’) is not attributed to this term. Instead, an entity of God, exactly called, ‘The Father’, is attributed to creation!

In fact, BOTH ‘GOD’ and ‘The Father’ are stated as ‘Creating all things’, which logically the two go together!! AND, Jesus, on appearing as a man on earth (that it’s claimed he created by some Christian groups) clearly states that he can do nothing except what he sees God (or the Father) doing first. In fact, he, Jesus was ‘Taught by God/The Father how and what to do and say’.

So, how is it that Jesus/The Son is supposed to have carried out the greatest event of all time (!!) and yet has to be taught how to exist in that event? This is a problem when we are expected to believe that Jesus pre-existed, and is therefore a Spirit (that’s a problem in itself as the only spirits we know of at the time of creation are God and the angels - and we know God created the angels - or did Jesus/the Son/the word?) and not a man (human/flesh being).

Can anyone throw light on this huge anomaly - a conundrum of almighty importance in Christian scriptural matters?

Paul and the author of John held gnostic beliefs, unlike the authors of the synoptics. Thus Paul's Jesus and John's Jesus (but not Mark's, Matthew's or Luke's) pre-existed in heaven with God, and in the role of the gnostic demiurge ("craftsman") created the material universe ─ something the absolutely pure and hugely remote gnostic God would never think of sullying [him]self with. Each of these Jesuses then came to earth in a manner never described, but since both are said to be descended from David, the hypothesis that the spirit of Jesus entered the zygote of a Jewish couple and was born in the usual way seems to be as good as any.

One relevant passage in Paul is

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

and the relevant quote in John is the one you mention ─

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
​

 

[firedragon]

Hmmmmm... no.

But I can see why you want to see it that way.

How do you know when he got the revelation vs when he wrote it?

See Ken. Saying "You want to see it that way" is an ad hominem anyone can say to anyone. So I think someone like you should move beyond that kind of rhetoric.

Nevertheless, I don't know when they got revelations or if they did at all. I am asking you based on your own theology where you said John understood through time. Unless you want to take it back and provide a different apologetic. No problem.

If he got "revelation" early, when did he get this revelation? If he got revelation, then your thesis that he took time to understand will not count. Unless you claim he got revelation early, but he took time to understand which were like half a century or more. That would mean the gospel itself is not revelation, but John's understanding of revelation he wrote down many decades later. If that is the case, the revelations that came to the synoptic writers were very primitive. So the Holy Spirit gave different revelations to different people, and it was only time decided how they presented it.

Correct?

BTW, please give your thoughts on this question I asked earlier.

Anyway, do you have any reasoning based on the text itself that John knew all three synoptics like you said in your last statement? Remember, reasoning based on the text, not just post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Thanks.

 

[1213]

You mean like: ‘The builder used a contractor to build his house’
...

I understand these scriptures so that Jesus is the mediator. Perhaps he could be called figuratively the right arm of God.

...all things have been created through him...
Colossians 1:14-16

I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don't seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.
John 5:30

Jesus therefore answered them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
John 5:19

Jesus therefore said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing of myself, but as my Father taught me, I say these things. He who sent me is with me. The Father hasn't left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him."
John 8:28-29

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

 

[InChrist]

Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning GOD created [all things]…’

John 1:1 - ‘In the beginning [THE WORD] created all things’

You all know the full verses … But clearly there is a problem - the two claims do not agree!

Who, exactly, is ‘God’?

Where did the WORD come from?

We know the ALMIGHTY word spoken BY God that created a things in the beginning, don’t we? What was it? Was it not: ‘Let there be light!’

Specifically, who are these words attributed to: God, or The Word…

Or is it sensibly just, ‘The word of God’, that created all things?

Reading further in Genesis, you will find absolutely no reference ‘The Word’… (as in ‘Son of God’ / Jesus)… is that strange seeing that certain Christian groups clearly claim that it was ‘Jesus’ who created all things (‘God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.’ (John 1:3)

Not only does that verse alter the creation story in Genesis but it puts in place an entity that was never mentioned in Genesis. In fact, never mentioned in any verse anywhere in the whole of the Old Testament.

Here, in John 1: 1-3 we have an entirely new ‘person’ who is also claimed to be GOD… ‘The Word’.

But, again, nothing of ‘The Word’ is stated in the Old Testament. And even after Jesus does appear as the messiah, he himself says nothing about having created anything (carried out the greatest event in the whole of world activity!)

I do ponder, though, that the term, ‘Father’, means: ‘Creator, Bringer into being, Giver of life’, yet Jesus (or ‘the word’) is not attributed to this term. Instead, an entity of God, exactly called, ‘The Father’, is attributed to creation!

In fact, BOTH ‘GOD’ and ‘The Father’ are stated as ‘Creating all things’, which logically the two go together!! AND, Jesus, on appearing as a man on earth (that it’s claimed he created by some Christian groups) clearly states that he can do nothing except what he sees God (or the Father) doing first. In fact, he, Jesus was ‘Taught by God/The Father how and what to do and say’.

So, how is it that Jesus/The Son is supposed to have carried out the greatest event of all time (!!) and yet has to be taught how to exist in that event? This is a problem when we are expected to believe that Jesus pre-existed, and is therefore a Spirit (that’s a problem in itself as the only spirits we know of at the time of creation are God and the angels - and we know God created the angels - or did Jesus/the Son/the word?) and not a man (human/flesh being).

Can anyone throw light on this huge anomaly - a conundrum of almighty importance in Christian scriptural matters?

The Son of God ( Jesus) is God; with the same Divine, Eternal Nature, Attributes, and Qualities as His Father. If Jesus is not God, then He is not the One and only begotten Son of God. Yet, the scriptures declare Him to be so repeatedly.


“If Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, how could He not be God?” All living things have the same nature as their birth parents. Dogs beget dogs, birds beget birds, and humans beget humans. Every man alive today is the son of a man. Begotten sons always have the same nature as their father – not a lesser nature. The Bible itself teaches this. In John 5:18 when Jesus called God His Father, He was “making Himself equal with God.” If Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God, then He must be God in nature since His Father is.

Furthermore, while the dictionary can certainly be helpful when reading an English translation of the Bible, we need to keep in mind that (1) context determines meaning, and (2) the meaning of the words in the original language is paramount. The phrase “only begotten” is translated from a single Greek word: monogenes. This word has the meaning of “unique” or “one-and-only.” Jesus is the unique Son of God, and therefore must be God by nature.”

Jesus: The Lord | Biblical Science Institute

 

[Kenny]

See Ken. Saying "You want to see it that way" is an ad hominem anyone can say to anyone. So I think someone like you should move beyond that kind of rhetoric.

Nevertheless, I don't know when they got revelations or if they did at all. I am asking you based on your own theology where you said John understood through time. Unless you want to take it back and provide a different apologetic. No problem.

If he got "revelation" early, when did he get this revelation? If he got revelation, then your thesis that he took time to understand will not count. Unless you claim he got revelation early, but he took time to understand which were like half a century or more. That would mean the gospel itself is not revelation, but John's understanding of revelation he wrote down many decades later. If that is the case, the revelations that came to the synoptic writers were very primitive. So the Holy Spirit gave different revelations to different people, and it was only time decided how they presented it.

Correct?

BTW, please give your thoughts on this question I asked earlier.

Anyway, do you have any reasoning based on the text itself that John knew all three synoptics like you said in your last statement? Remember, reasoning based on the text, not just post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Thanks.

It's that your answer was filled with personal viewpoint and then declared to be so. Call it ad hominem if you want, but you really didn't offer supportive documentation.

As I mentioned before, we are only going to present opinions, not only because they didn't tell us why they wrote what they wrote and to whom they wrote it to (except Luke) because:

1) We assume that the disciples didn't have the same revelation but the possibility is that they did
2) We do know that in the other gospels they DID mention the equality such as "Emmanuel, God with us"(Matthew), God in the flesh (Philippians), Christ is God (Romans), not to mention it is in the TaNaKh too.
3) Yes, he knew the synoptics because they were circulated... have no reason not to believe he didn't
4) There are no writings that say "JOHN IS WRONG"... not by the apostles or by the church fathers which gives indication that it was received.
5) We don't know the date they received the revelation. ALL of them wrote years after they received revelations.

I'm sure there are other reasons - but I think 5 is enough.

 

[firedragon]

It's that your answer was filled with personal viewpoint

Nope.

Call it ad hominem if you want, but you really didn't offer supportive documentation.

Supporting documentation for questions?

1) We assume that the disciples didn't have the same revelation but the possibility is that they did
2) We do know that in the other gospels they DID mention the equality such as "Emmanuel, God with us"(Matthew), God in the flesh (Philippians), Christ is God (Romans), not to mention it is in the TaNaKh too.
3) Yes, he knew the synoptics because they were circulated... have no reason not to believe he didn't
4) There are no writings that say "JOHN IS WRONG"... not by the apostles or by the church fathers which gives indication that it was received.
5) We don't know the date they received the revelation. ALL of them wrote years after they received revelations.

I'm sure there are other reasons - but I think 5 is enough.

Okay. Talking about supporting documentation, can you provide supporting documentation to your the only relevant point in your response, point 3?

 

[Kenny]

Nope.



Supporting documentation for questions?



Okay. Talking about supporting documentation, can you provide supporting documentation to your the only relevant point in your response, point 3?

sure...

Only relevant one because it is the only one that you want discussed? I think all are relevant but you don't have to address it since it doesn't fit your narrative.

How many people quoted from the NT (you can't have it quoted unless you have it distributed)
List of Church Fathers who quote the New Testament - Wikipedia

How many fragments (from different copies that had to be distributed which include the Gospel of John

New Testament According to the site Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, there are currently 5,686 known fragments of New Testament manuscripts. That site also shows how much closer to the date of composition these manuscripts are than many other contemporary texts. The earliest of these (p52) dates to sometime between 96 and 125 AD. Seeing that some people date John to the 90s (others to the 60s), the gap is extremely small indeed.

There are other obvious reasons such as when they canonized scriptures. It had to be spread to be able to be canonized. (logically speaking)

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning GOD created [all things]…’

John 1:1 - ‘In the beginning [THE WORD] created all things’

You all know the full verses … But clearly there is a problem - the two claims do not agree!

Who, exactly, is ‘God’?

Where did the WORD come from?

We know the ALMIGHTY word spoken BY God that created a things in the beginning, don’t we? What was it? Was it not: ‘Let there be light!’

Specifically, who are these words attributed to: God, or The Word…

Or is it sensibly just, ‘The word of God’, that created all things?

Reading further in Genesis, you will find absolutely no reference ‘The Word’… (as in ‘Son of God’ / Jesus)… is that strange seeing that certain Christian groups clearly claim that it was ‘Jesus’ who created all things (‘God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.’ (John 1:3)

Not only does that verse alter the creation story in Genesis but it puts in place an entity that was never mentioned in Genesis. In fact, never mentioned in any verse anywhere in the whole of the Old Testament.

Here, in John 1: 1-3 we have an entirely new ‘person’ who is also claimed to be GOD… ‘The Word’.

But, again, nothing of ‘The Word’ is stated in the Old Testament. And even after Jesus does appear as the messiah, he himself says nothing about having created anything (carried out the greatest event in the whole of world activity!)

I do ponder, though, that the term, ‘Father’, means: ‘Creator, Bringer into being, Giver of life’, yet Jesus (or ‘the word’) is not attributed to this term. Instead, an entity of God, exactly called, ‘The Father’, is attributed to creation!

In fact, BOTH ‘GOD’ and ‘The Father’ are stated as ‘Creating all things’, which logically the two go together!! AND, Jesus, on appearing as a man on earth (that it’s claimed he created by some Christian groups) clearly states that he can do nothing except what he sees God (or the Father) doing first. In fact, he, Jesus was ‘Taught by God/The Father how and what to do and say’.

So, how is it that Jesus/The Son is supposed to have carried out the greatest event of all time (!!) and yet has to be taught how to exist in that event? This is a problem when we are expected to believe that Jesus pre-existed, and is therefore a Spirit (that’s a problem in itself as the only spirits we know of at the time of creation are God and the angels - and we know God created the angels - or did Jesus/the Son/the word?) and not a man (human/flesh being).

Can anyone throw light on this huge anomaly - a conundrum of almighty importance in Christian scriptural matters?

The Lord Jesus Christ created the physical universe under the authority and direction of God the Father - who is He God and our God.

And I just want to interject by saying that I would not consider the Creation to be the greatest event in history - but rather the Atoning Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ - with His Resurrection being the crowning event - that should be considered the greatest event in all world history.

 

[firedragon]

sure...

Only relevant one because it is the only one that you want discussed? I think all are relevant but you don't have to address it since it doesn't fit your narrative.

How many people quoted from the NT (you can't have it quoted unless you have it distributed)
List of Church Fathers who quote the New Testament - Wikipedia

How many fragments (from different copies that had to be distributed which include the Gospel of John

New Testament According to the site Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, there are currently 5,686 known fragments of New Testament manuscripts. That site also shows how much closer to the date of composition these manuscripts are than many other contemporary texts. The earliest of these (p52) dates to sometime between 96 and 125 AD. Seeing that some people date John to the 90s (others to the 60s), the gap is extremely small indeed.

There are other obvious reasons such as when they canonized scriptures. It had to be spread to be able to be canonized. (logically speaking)

Give me any of these things you mentioned in your post that dates to the time of any of the Gospels.

When I say dated I don't mean what someone things or preaches. Either carbon 14 dated or paelographically dated.

 

[74x12]

Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning GOD created [all things]…’

John 1:1 - ‘In the beginning [THE WORD] created all things’

You all know the full verses … But clearly there is a problem - the two claims do not agree!

Who, exactly, is ‘God’?

Where did the WORD come from?

We know the ALMIGHTY word spoken BY God that created a things in the beginning, don’t we? What was it? Was it not: ‘Let there be light!’

Specifically, who are these words attributed to: God, or The Word…

Or is it sensibly just, ‘The word of God’, that created all things?

Reading further in Genesis, you will find absolutely no reference ‘The Word’… (as in ‘Son of God’ / Jesus)… is that strange seeing that certain Christian groups clearly claim that it was ‘Jesus’ who created all things (‘God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.’ (John 1:3)

Not only does that verse alter the creation story in Genesis but it puts in place an entity that was never mentioned in Genesis. In fact, never mentioned in any verse anywhere in the whole of the Old Testament.

Here, in John 1: 1-3 we have an entirely new ‘person’ who is also claimed to be GOD… ‘The Word’.

But, again, nothing of ‘The Word’ is stated in the Old Testament. And even after Jesus does appear as the messiah, he himself says nothing about having created anything (carried out the greatest event in the whole of world activity!)

I do ponder, though, that the term, ‘Father’, means: ‘Creator, Bringer into being, Giver of life’, yet Jesus (or ‘the word’) is not attributed to this term. Instead, an entity of God, exactly called, ‘The Father’, is attributed to creation!

In fact, BOTH ‘GOD’ and ‘The Father’ are stated as ‘Creating all things’, which logically the two go together!! AND, Jesus, on appearing as a man on earth (that it’s claimed he created by some Christian groups) clearly states that he can do nothing except what he sees God (or the Father) doing first. In fact, he, Jesus was ‘Taught by God/The Father how and what to do and say’.

So, how is it that Jesus/The Son is supposed to have carried out the greatest event of all time (!!) and yet has to be taught how to exist in that event? This is a problem when we are expected to believe that Jesus pre-existed, and is therefore a Spirit (that’s a problem in itself as the only spirits we know of at the time of creation are God and the angels - and we know God created the angels - or did Jesus/the Son/the word?) and not a man (human/flesh being).

Can anyone throw light on this huge anomaly - a conundrum of almighty importance in Christian scriptural matters?

Jesus incarnation in human form is the Light of Genesis 1:3. This is Jesus come in the flesh.

As it says

John 1:4-5
In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jesus is that light shining in the darkness. That darkness is none other than the "shadow of death".

Isaiah 9:2
Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

This shadow of death is over all people. Because we sin and we inherit death from Adam on. Galilee is specifically mentioned because that is where he would live.

Isaiah 60:2
For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

Jesus is the Light of God shining in the darkened world. He is the "Light of Life" because he banishes death through resurrection. Thus the Psalmist says "Yea though I walk through the vaelly of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil"

Oh death where is thy sting? Oh grave where is thy victory?

So all things were made in his light. Jesus is foreknown. Foreordained from the foundation of the world. His life from the grave is what eternity is founded on.

God is Light and in him is no darkness at all according to 1st John 1:5. There was always light therefore. Which is God himself. But there was not always light for us in the world. We were under great darkness which is the shadow of death. Jesus came (the Light of God) into the world to give life.

So that is the Word which creates all things. It is the "Word of Life" as spoken of in 1st John 1:1.

The Word of Life is the same with the Light of Life. It is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And all things were made in his light. It shined 7 days of the Light of God. Days unto God.

The 7th day is yet to come when God rests. Jesus says himself "My Father works hitherto and I work" so of course God has not yet rested with us. But for Him he has already rested. But God won't rest until he finishes building his house to rest in. Because no one rests until they have a place to rest. This house is the Jerusalem which is above. This is why He says in my Father's house are many mansions" and he also says "I go to prepare a place for you". Because he spoke to his bride and the place he prepares is the house of God and it's for us to if we want to rest with God that is. It's up to us. God says "Harden not your hearts as in the day of provocation" and he swore that those who believed not; would not enter into his rest.

But of Jerusalem he says "This is my rest forever for I have chosen it"

So then the rest of God is coming. The 7th day when all things are finished and God says all things are "very good".

 

[dybmh]

God = 'elohiym - Pural and singular. Let US make man in our image. Let US create.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens--He is God; He formed the earth and fashioned it; He established it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

 

[alex2165]

Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning GOD created [all things]…’

John 1:1 - ‘In the beginning [THE WORD] created all things’

You all know the full verses … But clearly there is a problem - the two claims do not agree!

Who, exactly, is ‘God’?

Where did the WORD come from?

We know the ALMIGHTY word spoken BY God that created a things in the beginning, don’t we? What was it? Was it not: ‘Let there be light!’

Specifically, who are these words attributed to: God, or The Word…

Or is it sensibly just, ‘The word of God’, that created all things?

Reading further in Genesis, you will find absolutely no reference ‘The Word’… (as in ‘Son of God’ / Jesus)… is that strange seeing that certain Christian groups clearly claim that it was ‘Jesus’ who created all things (‘God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.’ (John 1:3)

Not only does that verse alter the creation story in Genesis but it puts in place an entity that was never mentioned in Genesis. In fact, never mentioned in any verse anywhere in the whole of the Old Testament.

Here, in John 1: 1-3 we have an entirely new ‘person’ who is also claimed to be GOD… ‘The Word’.

But, again, nothing of ‘The Word’ is stated in the Old Testament. And even after Jesus does appear as the messiah, he himself says nothing about having created anything (carried out the greatest event in the whole of world activity!)

I do ponder, though, that the term, ‘Father’, means: ‘Creator, Bringer into being, Giver of life’, yet Jesus (or ‘the word’) is not attributed to this term. Instead, an entity of God, exactly called, ‘The Father’, is attributed to creation!

In fact, BOTH ‘GOD’ and ‘The Father’ are stated as ‘Creating all things’, which logically the two go together!! AND, Jesus, on appearing as a man on earth (that it’s claimed he created by some Christian groups) clearly states that he can do nothing except what he sees God (or the Father) doing first. In fact, he, Jesus was ‘Taught by God/The Father how and what to do and say’.

So, how is it that Jesus/The Son is supposed to have carried out the greatest event of all time (!!) and yet has to be taught how to exist in that event? This is a problem when we are expected to believe that Jesus pre-existed, and is therefore a Spirit (that’s a problem in itself as the only spirits we know of at the time of creation are God and the angels - and we know God created the angels - or did Jesus/the Son/the word?) and not a man (human/flesh being).

Can anyone throw light on this huge anomaly - a conundrum of almighty importance in Christian scriptural matters?

Hebrews 1.3

3.And He (Jesus Christ) is the radiance of His (Father's) Glory and the exact representation of His (Father's) nature, and upholds all things by the Word of His (Father's) power. When He had made purification of sins He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty (Father) on high,



To Hebrews 1.1-2
1.GOD (Father), after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

2.in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, Whom He appointed Heir of all things, through Whom also He made the world.



Colossians 1.15-18
15.And He (Jesus Christ) is the Image of the invisible GOD, the First-Born of all creation.

16.By Him (by Christ) all things were created, both in the heavens and on Earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created by Him and for Him.

17.And He (Jesus Christ) is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

18.He is also Head of the body - the church, and He is the Beginning, the First-Born from the dead, so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything.