Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God exists in one form, as God.
Jesus was a Manifestation of God.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God.
Jesus was not God. He was the image of God. If you had seen Jesus you saw the image of God.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Who created all things: God or the Son?
- Thread starter Soapy
- Start date
Jesus was a Manifestation of God.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God.
You mean that you don't understand how it is supported by the Bible.
Jesus is fully God, as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. They are three manifestations of the one God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I mean it is NOT supported by the Bible.
Nope. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work together but they are not PART OF GOD.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the sense that they are ‘one in Purpose.’
They work together, but they are separate, not ‘part of God.’ God cannot be divided into parts.
God is exalted above anything that can ever be perceived so God remains in His own high place, on His Throne.
God never descends to earth.
God sent Jesus from heaven and Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit from the womb of Mary into a human body. Later, after Jesus reached a certain age, God sent the Holy Spirit to Him and it descended upon Him like a dove when Jesus was baptized. After Jesus received the Holy Spirit from God the Father, Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to believers and it dwelt in believers.
The Baha’i Faith believes in a Trinity, and the detailed explanation is in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY
You are having the belief contradicting what the Bible says -- There is no debate among Theologians - Biblical Scholars that there is no direct Trinity Statement in the NT.. .. Reference Bibles will tell you this .. so there is no "smoking gun" passage that you can quote .. and believe me it is not for lack of the theological community trying .. but that is simply not the case.
This is contrasted with the one phrase Trinity apologists -- failing to take into account .. the drastic "Sin of Omission" -- the hundreds of times Jesus clearly .. and without interpretive ambiguity .. refers or speaks to God in in the third person .. as someone other than himself. having a separate Will .. separate knowledge .. one knowing things the other does not .. separate minds. It is a crucified positon ..on the basis of man made dogma .. trying fit man made doctrine into the Bible rather than allowing the Bible to dictate doctrine.
You are the one has things backwards .. mixed up -- contradicting the Bible -- in more area's than this one.. Did not the Son of God Ha Satan not also have a hand in creation of man ? .. but thats another story .. One contradiction at at time .. My God .. My God Why have you forsaken me ..
According to your Doctrine -- this is the primordial uncreated Supreme God of everything hanging on the cross -- somehow forgetting who he is .. depicted as in a state of masochistic delerium .. he begins to call out to himself .. Claiming he has been forsaken.
and this makes absolutely no sense .. in light of the fact that we know from the story what Jesus is talking about .. and this context matters .. as Jesus has asked his God to "Take this Cup from my Hand" ... do you understand that Jesus here is using a colloquialism .. and that what this means is Jesus is asking God not to make him go through with the whole human sacrifice plan .. but God does not come through like he when Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac .. providing a substitute. This is not what happens .. and Jesus is not happy about it almost cursing his God asking Why God has forsaken him.
Thats the story --- Trinity Doctrine a massive contradiction with this story. .. and frankly a big contradiction in of itself .. one the Church itself does not deny .. calling it a Mystery. but here you are arguing "No Contradiction" in a crucified position .. literally .
If God(Jesus) wanted to save himself .. make the ending come out like Abe and Isaac where God(The FAther) steps in and saves the Day .. the Jesus (God-The Father) shoud have just willed it to happen .. and there should be no surprise when it doesn't happen .. Yet .. AJesus is not only surprised .. he is pissed off .. lashing out against God .. and at the same time pleading to his God ... "Why .. why have you forsaken me"
Trinity Doctrine is man made dogma .. made by the hands of the Chief God on Earth perhaps, or one of his minions. You do realize that Ha Satan is a God do you not ? that kind of contradicts man made doctrine as well .. doesn't it.. another contradiction with the Bible .. which clearly states that the tester of souls is a God .. depicted with great God Powers.
But you do not believe what the Bible tells us about Ha Satan .. an "unbeliever" .. and perhaps do not believe in Lucifer either .. nor the demiurge YHWH . .. or the God named Jealous .. one of my favorites.
what about El Elyon - El Oliun .. El Most High, El Supreme .. Do you believe in that God .. head of the Divine Assembly in Psalm 82 .. up there in heaven with the Patron Gods of Jerusalem by his side Zedek .. twin Gods of righteousness and Justice - fitting for the city of Peace.
Don't believe in him neither ? God of Jesus and Abraham not Good enough for you... his name not so Hallowed in your books ?
Who is this God of the Trinity .. where in the bible can he be found .. and sure as heck aint the God of Jesus. .. High priest forever in the order of Melchi-Zedek
Whats in a name aye Jimbo !? What is the name of the God of the Trinity ? .. where in the Bible is this God to be found ? and most importantly .. what are this God's commands .. such that I may be put right with this God .. and be granted salvation.
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
The Greek word logos means thought/idea/concept/plan/etc. That verse would have been translated better as: In the beginning was the plan, and the plan was with God and the plan was God.
God's word was his plan. He had everything planned before he created anything. So the plan was with him. (Known unto God are all his works from the beginning.) Acts 15:18
The plan was God, because he was the plan. And when the right time came around God took on flesh and brought that part of the plan to fruition.
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
Hi Mark,
You seemed to be saying the Son was created first, and then the Son created things himself. I was pointing out that the Son (the physical body God took on) didn't actually exist until it was born of Mary. Because Galatians 4:4 lets us know he was made of a woman and made during the time of the law of Moses.
I hope this helps. Sometimes it's not that easy to get your point across in a text.
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
The name of the Father is YHWH.
The verses that say he is Lord are actually saying he is YHWH. If they hadn't removed the name of God this would be clear to see.
Since you're going on and on and on... And I disagree with what you tried to say... There is no point in continuing this discussion.
You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, which I know to be correct.
If you persist with your dogma and insults, I will put you on ignore.
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
The Son is not handing anything over to the Father. He is going to reign forever as the scripture says.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I understand. He will reign forever in the sense that when all is in subjection to the Son, he will hand everything over to the (his) Father so that God may be all in all. In perfect harmony and wonderful existence. Offhand I can't remember the exact scripture that tells me that, but if you'd like I can find it. thanks.
Since you're going on and on and on... And I disagree with what you tried to say... There is no point in continuing this discussion.
You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, which I know to be correct.
If you persist with your dogma and insults, I will put you on ignore.
That is true for the OT -- the name YHWH in the text was translated from Hebrew to English as Lord by convention .. an unfortunate mistranslation as far as I am concerned but this is not the case in New Testament scripture where the Name YHWH is never used as a personal name for "The Father" The word in Greek used for "The Father" is Patri = The Father . Patri is not the personal name YHWH in Greek .. nor is that the term used for God in the Greek text.
but this matters not ... as the redactors of the Bible in the second temple period defaulted to uisng the Name YHWH for God in older text .. for example in Genesis during the time of Abraham .. prior to anyone ever knowing the name YHWH .. we find YHWH cropping up as a name for God in some places .. where in other places we have all kinds of other epithets for the God EL .. including the EL used directly.
EL was the God of Abraham and the Patriarchs . EL Elyon ---- God Most High , El Shaddai (high god of the mountain / twin peaks) and epithet for the Canaanite High God EL. El Oliun God Supreme .. who can't be YHWH because YHWH later shows up in in Heaven with EL in Psalm 82 .. along with a number of the other Sons of God.
The cult of YHWH starts with Moses -- Moses does not know of any God YHWH prior to meeting while spending 40 years with the midianites .. this God known as Yahu of the Shasu in Egyptian texts. YHWH was worshiped along side his wife Asherah with numerous other Gods in the various temples dedicated to him throughout the land .. at no time are the Israelites ever Monotheists. Monotheism does not come until after YHWH's death with the invention of Judaism in Persia ..adopting monotheistic beliefs from the Persians.
The God of Judaism -- what ever name you wish to give this God .. is not the OT God YHWH .. but that is a story for another post.
Jesus is the Logos .. and the Word Was God .. Logos can mean word but in a religious context means emissary between man and God .. Jesus was thus the physical representation of God's word .. and God's word .. as far as humans are concerned IS GOD. Thus the various commands in the bible is that God ..
For example .. we have one God in the NT named Jealous .. who gives a completely different 10 commands than the God who gives the 10 commands that you are normally familar with. This is a different God speaking.
We know Jesus is not YHWH .. he can not be the Logos of YHWH .. because he is not preaching the commands of YHWH - which lead to salvation. Jesus gives a set of commands completely different that the YHWH path to salvation.
Further -- we are told that Jesus is a priest of the order Melchi-Zedek (which blows trinity doctrine out of the water) Zedek was the Patron God of Jerusalem back in Abraham's day .. and also when David takes the "City of Peace" .. the Kings name at that time was Adoni-Zedek "My God is Zedek".
Rather than killing all the inhabitants and stringing the pagan canaanite priests up from the highest branch.. David himself is ordained a priest in the order of Melchi-Zedek.
The God of this Priestly Order is not YHWH .. but EL. King Solomon is not ordained by a Levite Priest .. he is ordained by a priest named Zadok .. a Jebusite and High Priest of the Canaanite city of Jerusalem prior to David taking over.
The God of the Order of the Priesthood of Zedek is EL . not YHWH.
Where were you insulted ? it would be deserved after such a post .. picking up ball and leaving playground in a sulk .. claiming your beliefs you know are defacto correct ..
Informing that the Trinity doctrine is not found directly in the NT by Theologians and modern Biblical scholarship thus contradicting your beliefs is not an insult. It is a correction .. one for which you should be thanking me for .. rather than getting upset.
I asked you the name of the God of the Trinity - and where this God's commands can be found in the Bible-- how is this insulting to you ? .. I can see embarassing if you do not know .. but not an insult.
I asked you --- "what are this God's commands .. such that I may be put right with this God .. and be granted salvation" -- Tjhis is not an insult .. and not my fault that you do know the path by which salvation is granted with this God of the Trinity .. Why are you shooting the messenger ? and you should be happy I am trying to figure out how one is granted salvation .. is that not something you wish to know as well ?
Another of your insults: "it would be deserved after such a post .. picking up ball and leaving playground in a sulk .. claiming your beliefs you know are defacto correct". If you have to resort to that, you have obviously lost the debate. ( That is a correction .. one for which you should be thanking me for!)
I thank you for one compliment (which is undoubtedly a typo): "you do know the path by which salvation is granted with this God of the Trinity". Yes, I do know it.
Finally, you should be happy I have figured out how one is granted salvation .. is that not something you wish to know as well ?
Falsely claiming you were insulted in previous post -- failing to show what was the insult .. and now claiming the above is not picking up ball and leaving playground in sulk .. is mere deflection from topic tactic .. down a rabbit hole of your own creation .. initiated by your false claim of being insulted .. and prior to this a raft of false strawman accusations.
but .. never mind all that silliness .. all is forgiven on the basis of you figureing out the name of your god and the commands to be followed by which one is put right with God -- by which one is given the gift of Salvation.
and Yes . .. absolutely want to know .. been asking you this for a week now .. who doesn't want to know how to achieve salvation -- and glad you came back to the Playground re-invigorated .
Podium Yours !
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Good luck. Better you than me.
Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation
a) If you don't accept what Scripture clearly says, there is no point in discussing anything with you. Example: "Your spiritual sight needs servicing and new glasses." b) If you can't accept what the Bible clearly says about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and claim that there are...
www.religiousforums.com
Good luck. Better you than me.
Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation
a) If you don't accept what Scripture clearly says, there is no point in discussing anything with you. Example: "Your spiritual sight needs servicing and new glasses." b) If you can't accept what the Bible clearly says about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and claim that there are...www.religiousforums.com
We are about to receive the Holy Grail .. what is not to be happy about that .. look here --
Exteremely happy Jimb has figured out which God in the Bible is the Trinity God - and has found commands by which we may be put right with this God .. by which we achieve salvation.
Can't wait to hear the Good News -- hoping this God has something to do with the words of our Lord Jesus -- as opposed to ... to the false prophet Martin's -- the hands of men that do the devils work .. the one's predicted by Jesus .. in his most famous sermon on the topic .. the wolves in sheeps clothing" .. that is what he called them..
Now .. keep us guessing no further --- give us a few of these commands we are to follow and from where in the Bible they Come -- which God is responsible for these Holy utterences .. hopefully avoiding the hands of Ha Satan .. and the Words he added.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I look forward to it.
Good luck trying to get a straight answer.
Oye mate .. the minons of the decepticons .. slippery ones them are ... usurping the position of the logos -- substituting man made words and dogma for "The Word" of our Lord Jesus .. Logos and annointed one of God.
Is this not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit .. writ Large -- through which Jesus speaks the true word of God .. not to be confused with the words of Idol Martin...
Now -- given the topic has come to "Salvation" -- the Holy Grail -- Let us do the Philosophical thing and first understand what will barr us from Entry..
Jesus say -- all kind of sins can be forgiven .. sin against son .. sin against Father .. .. one sin that can never be forgiven say Jesus ... <see above in bold>
eeyyyyiiiicheee .. can feel those embers close by .. gonna run around blaspheming Unowho
was also .. can't remember another one or Jimb -- was calling out Satan for no good reason .. testing and tempting the spirits. .. I didn't think that was a good idea either.. I mean no big deal flipping the bird to Lord Satan . .chief God over the earth at present .. if Satan doesn't exist - and a meaningless gesture so pointless BUT - on the off chance Lord Satan was listening .. eeeeyyyyyiiiiicheee .. now one in a big mess of hurt .. pain and suffering !
So clearly you're not aware of when you insult people, and then follow it with another insult of a false claim. Is that really the state of your spiritual health?
If you truly want to know how to achieve salvation, it's written in the Bible. Here is a short story for you to read...
"About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the rest of the prisoners were listening to them. Suddenly a great earthquake occurred, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. Immediately all the doors flew open, and the bonds of all the prisoners came loose. When the jailer woke up and saw the doors of the prison standing open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, because he assumed the prisoners had escaped. But Paul called out loudly, “Do not harm yourself,[da] for we are all here!” Calling for lights, the jailer rushed in and fell down trembling at the feet of Paul and Silas. Then he brought them outside and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.” " Acts 16:25-31