Who created all things: God or the Son?

[jimb]

The reason that the Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death is because they thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but that does not mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. Jesus was not claiming to be God.

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father since the Father possesses certain Attributes that the Son does not possess. There are Attributes that are unique to God: Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and nobody except God can have those Attributes.

However, the Father is in the Son because Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Jesus was a Servant of God and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus clearly differentiated Himself from the Father in the verses above and that alone means that Jesus could not be the Father.

WELL SAID! Thanks!

 

[Sargonski]

When you even begin to understand the Trinity and/or God the Father's relationship with Jesus, the Son, we can continue this discussion. Until then, what is the point?

P.S. You should use a spell-checker.

LOL .. pointing out typo's not a good argument for much friend .. other than the fact that your position was crucified .. and you have nothign better.

"My God, My God .. why have you forsaken me" ..

"Your Claim" - that this is the Primordial Supreme God hanging on the cross - who has forgotten who he is in some kind of masochistic delerium .. such that he starts calling out to himself .. claiming to have forsaken himself and that he is helpless to save himself is what you need to begin to understand .. is complete nonsense.

 

[YoursTrue]

Pre-existence.

Huh? Not sure I understand what you mean. You're saying pre-existence had a beginning?

 

[YoursTrue]

1) Jesus, in John 10:30, said "The Father and I are one.”

This was followed by "The Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death."

Your 2) is meaningless. The Father's name is clearly spelled out in the Bible. Look for it.

The Bible also says a husband and wife are one.

 

[jimb]

LOL .. pointing out typo's not a good argument for much friend .. other than the fact that your position was crucified .. and you have nothign better.

"My God, My God .. why have you forsaken me" ..

"Your Claim" - that this is the Primordial Supreme God hanging on the cross - who has forgotten who he is in some kind of masochistic delerium .. such that he starts calling out to himself .. claiming to have forsaken himself and that he is helpless to save himself is what you need to begin to understand .. is complete nonsense.

My understanding of the Trinity is in agreement with that of the great majority of Christians, and totally opposite of yours.

BTW, I never used the phrase "Primordial Supreme God hanging on the cross"; that is your invention. I also totally disagree with your assumptions about Christ's state of mind and your understanding of the tripartite Godhead.

Millions of people throughout history have disagreed with you. What makes you think you're right? Evidence, please.

And again, when you even begin to understand the Trinity and/or God the Father's relationship with Jesus, the Son, we can continue this discussion. If you continue to be sarcastic, then I will put you on "ignore".

 

[jimb]

Huh? Not sure I understand what you mean. You're saying pre-existence had a beginning?

Pre-existence means before the world existed. John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being n him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it."

There is a significant time gap between the end of the second sentence and the beginning of the third: "He was in the beginning with God" and "All things came into being through Him". The creator existed before His creation.

 

[jimb]

The Bible also says a husband and wife are one.

You're getting close! "The Father and I are one" and "a husband and wife are one" both indicate the spiritual union of two separate beings.

"The Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death" because He claimed spiritual union with God, His Father.

 

[YoursTrue]

You're getting close! "The Father and I are one" and "a husband and wife are one" both indicate the spiritual union of two separate beings.

"The Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death" because He claimed spiritual union with God, His Father.

spiritual union. But does not mean they are part of a trinity of three "equal" godpersons. Nothing to even suggest that. Or that they are one and the same. Especially since the Son is to hand everything over to the Father after all is brought in subjection to him. You remember that scripture?

 

[YoursTrue]

Pre-existence means before the world existed. John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being n him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it."

There is a significant time gap between the end of the second sentence and the beginning of the third: "He was in the beginning with God" and "All things came into being through Him". The creator existed before His creation.

He, the Son, also known as the Word, was with God in the beginning. Anyway that's two.

 

[jimb]

spiritual union. But does not mean they are part of a trinity of three "equal" godpersons. Nothing to even suggest that. Or that they are one and the same. Especially since the Son is to hand everything over to the Father after all is brought in subjection to him. You remember that scripture?

Are you changing the subject deliberately or by accident? Now you're talking about the Trinity. See if you can understand this: the Trinity (God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit) are three different aspects of the one Godhead. A similar situation: I am composed of three parts: 1) body, 2) mind, and 3) spirit. All exist separately, yet all are a part of me.

You clearly misunderstand Scripture! Why? Because you are TRYING to misunderstand it! You are trying to find errors or contradictions instead of trying to understand what it actually means..

 

[jimb]

He, the Son, also known as the Word, was with God in the beginning. Anyway that's two.

You forget the Holy Spirit. That's three!

 

[Sargonski]

My understanding of the Trinity is in agreement with that of the great majority of Christians, and totally opposite of yours.

BTW, I never used the phrase "Primordial Supreme God hanging on the cross"; that is your invention. I also totally disagree with your assumptions about Christ's state of mind and your understanding of the tripartite Godhead.

Millions of people throughout history have disagreed with you. What makes you think you're right? Evidence, please.

And again, when you even begin to understand the Trinity and/or God the Father's relationship with Jesus, the Son, we can continue this discussion. If you continue to be sarcastic, then I will put you on "ignore".

who said the Trinity was not in agreement with the majority of Christians .. wasn't me ? You are confusing Sola Fide with Trinity Doctrine. It is Sola Fide "salvation by faith alone" which the majority of Christianity does not agree.

I did not say you used the exact phrase "primordial Supreme God hanging on the Cross" .. but that what you claim to believe .. nothing sarcastic about it .. is the "Most High" God of Abraham not the Supreme God ? or is it some different God hanging on the cross ?

this is "Your Claim" - in claiming that Jesus is God --- that this is the Primordial Supreme God hanging on the cross - who has forgotten who he is in some kind of masochistic delerium .. such that he starts calling out to himself .. claiming to have forsaken himself and that he is helpless to save himself

I make no assumptions of God's state of mind .. that is all your perspective given the text. Is God calling out to himself as if he is not God .. claiming to have forsaken himself not delerium ? and is God putting himself on the cross not not masochistic .. self induced pain.

What is the understanding difficulty here .. other than making your perspective fit into this ridiculous construct that Jesus is talking to himself .. and forsaking himself.

What part of ... Jesus is saying his God has forsaken him .. is not crystal clear in the text .. especially after Jesus asks his God not to make him go through with the ordeal. Then obviously thinking God would rescue him at the last moment like he did with Abraham's son Issac .. and provide some kind of substitute and when this doesn't happen cries out that his God has forsaken him.

but again .. this is just one of a hundred of examples of Jesus talking about his God in the Third Person .. something on which all religious scholars agree. Surely this is not the first time coming across scripture where Jesus refers to God as someone other that himself - how many examples would you like - how many to convince you that - at least in the Bible story - God is someone other than Jesus .

 

[YoursTrue]

You forget the Holy Spirit. That's three!

John 1 does not say the Word and the holy spirit were with God and were God. It says the Word was with God and, in many translations, was God. Nothing about the holy spirit, Son and Father being God, three in one. You can keep fighting about it all you like, but it doesn't say what you want it to say. Sounds like you're fighting against what's there. Sorry.

 

[jimb]

spiritual union. But does not mean they are part of a trinity of three "equal" godpersons. Nothing to even suggest that. Or that they are one and the same. Especially since the Son is to hand everything over to the Father after all is brought in subjection to him. You remember that scripture?

You clearly don't understand the Trinity. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separate aspects of the Godhead, i.e., the deity in three forms. Just as a human is body, mind, and spirit -- three forms comprising one person.

 

[jimb]

He, the Son, also known as the Word, was with God in the beginning. Anyway that's two.

Great! 1 + 1 = 2! And if you add one more, 1 + 1 +1 = 3. Now pay attention: the number 3 is a single number, yet it is the same as 1 + 1 + 1.

 

[Trailblazer]

My understanding of the Trinity is in agreement with that of the great majority of Christians, and totally opposite of yours.

I believe in a Trinity, but I do not believe that the three persons were 'part of God' as the Trinitarians believe.

In brief, below is what I believe.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the sense that they are ‘one in Purpose.’
They work together, but they are separate, not ‘part of God.’ God cannot be divided into parts.

God is exalted above anything that can ever be perceived so God remains in His own high place, on His Throne.
God never descends to earth.

God sent Jesus from heaven and Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit from the womb of Mary into a human body. Later, after Jesus reached a certain age, God sent the Holy Spirit to Him and it descended upon Him like a dove when Jesus was baptized. After Jesus received the Holy Spirit from God the Father, Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to believers and it dwelt in believers.

The Holy Spirit does not enter the body, but rather it has a direct connection to the body through the soul, which is associated with the mind. That is what the indwelling Holy Spirit means to me.

 

[jimb]

who said the Trinity was not in agreement with the majority of Christians .. wasn't me ? You are confusing Sola Fide with Trinity Doctrine. It is Sola Fide "salvation by faith alone" which the majority of Christianity does not agree.

I did not say you used the exact phrase "primordial Supreme God hanging on the Cross" .. but that what you claim to believe .. nothing sarcastic about it .. is the "Most High" God of Abraham not the Supreme God ? or is it some different God hanging on the cross ?

this is "Your Claim" - in claiming that Jesus is God --- that this is the Primordial Supreme God hanging on the cross - who has forgotten who he is in some kind of masochistic delerium .. such that he starts calling out to himself .. claiming to have forsaken himself and that he is helpless to save himself

I make no assumptions of God's state of mind .. that is all your perspective given the text. Is God calling out to himself as if he is not God .. claiming to have forsaken himself not delerium ? and is God putting himself on the cross not not masochistic .. self induced pain.

What is the understanding difficulty here .. other than making your perspective fit into this ridiculous construct that Jesus is talking to himself .. and forsaking himself.

What part of ... Jesus is saying his God has forsaken him .. is not crystal clear in the text .. especially after Jesus asks his God not to make him go through with the ordeal. Then obviously thinking God would rescue him at the last moment like he did with Abraham's son Issac .. and provide some kind of substitute and when this doesn't happen cries out that his God has forsaken him.

but again .. this is just one of a hundred of examples of Jesus talking about his God in the Third Person .. something on which all religious scholars agree. Surely this is not the first time coming across scripture where Jesus refers to God as someone other that himself - how many examples would you like - how many to convince you that - at least in the Bible story - God is someone other than Jesus .

You clearly don't understand what I "believe" (actually, know for certain). Jesus is God.

I won't respond to your obvious attempt at sarcasm, e.g., "this is the Primordial Supreme God hanging on the cross - who has forgotten who he is in some kind of masochistic delerium .. such that he starts calling out to himself". If you want to discuss this subject, then do so without the sarcasm.

 

[jimb]

I believe in a Trinity, but I do not believe that the three persons were 'part of God' as the Trinitarians believe.

In brief, below is what I believe.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the sense that they are ‘one in Purpose.’
They work together, but they are separate, not ‘part of God.’ God cannot be divided into parts.

God is exalted above anything that can ever be perceived so God remains in His own high place, on His Throne.
God never descends to earth.

God sent Jesus from heaven and Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit from the womb of Mary into a human body. Later, after Jesus reached a certain age, God sent the Holy Spirit to Him and it descended upon Him like a dove when Jesus was baptized. After Jesus received the Holy Spirit from God the Father, Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to believers and it dwelt in believers.

The Holy Spirit does not enter the body, but rather it has a direct connection to the body through the soul, which is associated with the mind. That is what the indwelling Holy Spirit means to me.

I disagree, primarily because that contradicts what I believe the Bible says.

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Jesus was both with God and was God. This is hard to understand unless you accept the fact that one God exists in three form: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I, a human, also exist in three forms: body, soul, and spirit.

Verse 2-3a makes it even harder to understand this principle: "He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being." Yet in Genesis 1 it says "When God began to create the heavens and the earth". This seems like a contradiction unless it is understood that Jesus is a part of the triune God.

I agree entirely with your third paragraph.

However, I disagree with your last paragraph. There is no doubt in my mind that when I had faith to be healed (in the hospital), I received the Holy Spirit.

Finally, I am enjoying our conversation very much. I greatly appreciate your tone, as it is very different from the often-posted negativity and criticism of others.

 

[Trailblazer]

I disagree, primarily because that contradicts what I believe the Bible says.

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Jesus was both with God and was God. This is hard to understand unless you accept the fact that one God exists in three form: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I, a human, also exist in three forms: body, soul, and spirit.

Verse 2-3a makes it even harder to understand this principle: "He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being." Yet in Genesis 1 it says "When God began to create the heavens and the earth". This seems like a contradiction unless it is understood that Jesus is a part of the triune God.

Below is my interpretation of those verses in John 1.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Verse 3 is about God, not about Jesus. All things were made by God since God created the heavens and the earth.

The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, the Word was made flesh because God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh, then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God. We know that many people saw Jesus so that is one way we know that Jesus was not God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[Sargonski]

You clearly don't understand what I "believe" (actually, know for certain). Jesus is God.

I won't respond to your obvious attempt at sarcasm, e.g., "this is the Primordial Supreme God hanging on the cross - who has forgotten who he is in some kind of masochistic delerium .. such that he starts calling out to himself". If you want to discuss this subject, then do so without the sarcasm.

The claim that one knows for certain that Jesus is God is simply false.. know one can know such a thing for certain.

There is nothing "sarcastic" about YOUR CLAIM .. that the Supreme God of the Bible is hanging on the Cross . What part do you not understand ?

I did not write the Bible --- and it says what it says .. this God calls out to himself "My God My God - Why have you forsaken me" .. claiming to have forsaken himself according to you.

Its what the book says .. don't blame me if you find the Bible Sarcastic .... or your own claim .. which apparently you did not realize what you were claiming .. sarcastic.

If you say Jesus is God Most High .. El Elyon .. then this is God most High hanging on the Cross .. YOUR CLAIM .. this is what YOU are claiming .. Not my claim .. no sarcasm on my end