Who created all things: God or the Son?

[Soapy]

Jesus' role in creation can be thought of as a living instrument.

If the Father, Primary Source of the holy spirit (his powerful "intelligent" energy), puts a lot of that force in Jesus, causing Jesus to execute works that he could not execute without that energy that comes from God, who would be truly responsible for that work?

The Bible uses an expression to refer to the powerful energy of God acting through the physical hand of another person: "the finger of God." Look at these examples:

Exo. 8:16 Jehovah now said to Moses: “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your rod and strike the dust of the earth, and it must become gnats in all the land of Egypt.’” 17 And they did this. Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod and struck the dust of the earth, and the gnats came on man and beast. All the dust of the earth became gnats in all the land of Egypt. 18 The magic-practicing priests tried to do the same and produce gnats by their secret arts, but they could not. And the gnats came on man and beast. 19 So the magic-practicing priests said to Pharʹaoh: “It is the finger of God!” But Pharʹaoh’s heart continued to be obstinate, and he did not listen to them, just as Jehovah had said.

Luke 11:20 But if it is by means of God’s finger that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you.

The disciple is NOT CLAIMING AUTHORITY NOR POWER for the act. He is only a CHANNEL (a metaphorical ‘Finger’) through which the act takes place - like the Rod you mentioned earlier… the Rod is not DOING THE WORK…

But, in any case, it is WISDOM that is at GOD’s metaphorical ‘SIDE…

GOD HAD CREATED THE WORLD WITH JOYFUL WISDOM…

• When I wrote a brilliantly inventive computer application I glorified the WISDOM of the creativity. It was a joyful thing - WISDOM was AT MY SIDE as I wrote the computer programme code…!!!

And, in any case, WISDOM is personified AS A FEMALE entity. From what I recall, Jesus was a MALE entity… God said: ‘I will put my spirit on HIM and HE will do my bidding’

Also, you say that:

• ‘the Father [is the] Primary Source of the Holy Spirit’…

What do you mean by that? Does the Spirit of God (which IS the Spirit of the Father) have ANOTHER (a Seconday) source?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

It is something like this:

Prov. 8:
22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.
23 From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth.
24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,
When there were no springs overflowing with water.
25 Before the mountains were set in place,
Before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields
Or the first clods of earth’s soil.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
28 When he established the clouds above,
When he founded the fountains of the deep,
29 When he set a decree for the sea
That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
When he established the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time

But you seem to have ignored the verses that let you know that it was talking about wisdom. Proverbs 8:1 and 8:12

Wisdom and understanding were there, but they are not actually a person.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

o0o0

God Almighty’s first creation was his “only-begotten Son” (John 3:16), “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Revelation 3:14) This one, “the firstborn of all creation,” was used by God in creating all other things, those in the heavens and those upon the earth, “the things visible and the things invisible.” (Colossians 1:15-17) John’s inspired testimony concerning this Son, the Word, is that “all things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence,” and the apostle identifies the Word as Jesus Christ, who had become flesh. (John 1:3, 10, 14) As wisdom personified, this One is represented as saying, “God himself produced me as the beginning of his way,” and he tells of his association with God the Creator as His “master worker.” (Proverbs 8:22-31) In view of the close association of God and his only-begotten Son in creative activity and because that Son is “the image of the invisible God”-Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4.

Compare Genesis 1:26, 27. Notice that different use of the words "make" and "create."

Mark,
The Son was made of a woman, made under the law. Galatians 4:4 So that body did not exist until it was born.

God created all things alone and by himself as it says in Isaiah 44:24. It's just that God had a plan. God created everything revolving around the Son. The Son was the first thing (the beginning) of the creation in the plan of God. Just like it says the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8 Yet we know he wasn't slain until the death on the cross. It was in the plan of God from the very beginning.

 

[Mark La Buda]

Mark,
The Son was made of a woman, made under the law. Galatians 4:4 So that body did not exist until it was born.

God created all things alone and by himself as it says in Isaiah 44:24. It's just that God had a plan. God created everything revolving around the Son. The Son was the first thing (the beginning) of the creation in the plan of God. Just like it says the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8 Yet we know he wasn't slain until the death on the cross. It was in the plan of God from the very beginning.

I am confused with your reply to my post. I do not understand how Galatians 4:4 contradicts my post. "...founding of the world..." refers to the worshiper of the wild beast it had already been determined that no worshiper of the wild beast would not have their name in the Lamb's scroll.-Revelation 21;27,

 

[jimb]

Mark,
The Son was made of a woman, made under the law. Galatians 4:4 So that body did not exist until it was born.

God created all things alone and by himself as it says in Isaiah 44:24. It's just that God had a plan. God created everything revolving around the Son. The Son was the first thing (the beginning) of the creation in the plan of God. Just like it says the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8 Yet we know he wasn't slain until the death on the cross. It was in the plan of God from the very beginning.

John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it."

 

[cataway]

Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning GOD created [all things]…’

John 1:1 - ‘In the beginning [THE WORD] created all things’

You all know the full verses … But clearly there is a problem - the two claims do not agree!

Who, exactly, is ‘God’?

Where did the WORD come from?

We know the ALMIGHTY word spoken BY God that created a things in the beginning, don’t we? What was it? Was it not: ‘Let there be light!’

Specifically, who are these words attributed to: God, or The Word…

Or is it sensibly just, ‘The word of God’, that created all things?

Reading further in Genesis, you will find absolutely no reference ‘The Word’… (as in ‘Son of God’ / Jesus)… is that strange seeing that certain Christian groups clearly claim that it was ‘Jesus’ who created all things (‘God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.’ (John 1:3)

Not only does that verse alter the creation story in Genesis but it puts in place an entity that was never mentioned in Genesis. In fact, never mentioned in any verse anywhere in the whole of the Old Testament.

Here, in John 1: 1-3 we have an entirely new ‘person’ who is also claimed to be GOD… ‘The Word’.

But, again, nothing of ‘The Word’ is stated in the Old Testament. And even after Jesus does appear as the messiah, he himself says nothing about having created anything (carried out the greatest event in the whole of world activity!)

I do ponder, though, that the term, ‘Father’, means: ‘Creator, Bringer into being, Giver of life’, yet Jesus (or ‘the word’) is not attributed to this term. Instead, an entity of God, exactly called, ‘The Father’, is attributed to creation!

In fact, BOTH ‘GOD’ and ‘The Father’ are stated as ‘Creating all things’, which logically the two go together!! AND, Jesus, on appearing as a man on earth (that it’s claimed he created by some Christian groups) clearly states that he can do nothing except what he sees God (or the Father) doing first. In fact, he, Jesus was ‘Taught by God/The Father how and what to do and say’.

So, how is it that Jesus/The Son is supposed to have carried out the greatest event of all time (!!) and yet has to be taught how to exist in that event? This is a problem when we are expected to believe that Jesus pre-existed, and is therefore a Spirit (that’s a problem in itself as the only spirits we know of at the time of creation are God and the angels - and we know God created the angels - or did Jesus/the Son/the word?) and not a man (human/flesh being).

Can anyone throw light on this huge anomaly - a conundrum of almighty importance in Christian scriptural matters?

you did not do a good job quoting john 1:1

 

[Trailblazer]

John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it."

What Bible translation is that?

 

[Sargonski]

Jesus is God. Full stop. The three are One. I'm not seeing a problem.

I may be able to help you to see the problems

1) Jesus is not "The Father" - Hallowed be thy Name - according to Jesus and
2) You don't know the Hallowed name of "The Father"

Hint for #2 .. the name of the Father is not Yeshua.

 

[jimb]

What Bible translation is that?

The NET Bible, a.k.a., The New English Translation.

I may be able to help you to see the problems

1) Jesus is not "The Father" - Hallowed be thy Name - according to Jesus and
2) You don't know the Hallowed name of "The Father"

Hint for #2 .. the name of the Father is not Yeshua.

In the so-called "Lord's prayer", Jesus was teaching His disciples how to pray. He instructed them to say "hallowed be thy name".

Of course the name of the Father is not Yeshua. What are you trying to say?

 

[Sargonski]

The NET Bible, a.k.a., The New English Translation.


In the so-called "Lord's prayer", Jesus was teaching His disciples how to pray. He instructed them to say "hallowed be thy name".

Of course the name of the Father is not Yeshua. What are you trying to say?

They were numbered 1 and 2.

1) Jesus is not "The Father"
2) You don't know the Hallowed name of "The Father"

the point of 2 === is that if you don't know the name of God ... aka don't know the name of which God you are referring to when you say "Jesus is God" .. then I say "Jesus is What God" .. which God is Jesus .. the God Ha Satan ? The Snake ? Chemosh .. Marduk . Beloved Baal, Asherah, YHWH, Jealous, Azazel.

What is the Hallowed name of the God Jesus is referring to as "The Father" .. correct that it is not Jesus..

 

[YoursTrue]

John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it."

Hello. Yes, it says, "In the beginning was the Word," but what was it the beginning...of?

 

[Soapy]

you did not do a good job quoting john 1:1

Please, what is it that you mean by your observation?

 

[Soapy]

They were numbered 1 and 2.

1) Jesus is not "The Father"
2) You don't know the Hallowed name of "The Father"

the point of 2 === is that if you don't know the name of God ... aka don't know the name of which God you are referring to when you say "Jesus is God" .. then I say "Jesus is What God" .. which God is Jesus .. the God Ha Satan ? The Snake ? Chemosh .. Marduk . Beloved Baal, Asherah, YHWH, Jealous, Azazel.

What is the Hallowed name of the God Jesus is referring to as "The Father" .. correct that it is not Jesus..

The time was that of the Jews. In the New Testament, unless there is an explicit context set against the name, GOD is ‘The God of the Jews, the Israelites, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the God of Jesus, the disciples, and the Aposties to come:

• ‘YHWH’

There is a slight discussion in a thread concerning why the name of God is not written anywhere (is that true?). My take on it is that the name of God was purposely obliterated by the translators who were TRINITARIANS and sought to deny the truth of the God that they claim to worship since showing the Name would destroy their obvious fallacy that ‘Jesus is God’, since we know the Name of the human Son [of God] which is ‘Jesus’.
No one has more than one NAME… no one (that is, IN USE at any one time. Abraham WAS ‘Abram’ but was thereafter never referred to as his former name (the former things are forgotten!), Jacob became ‘Israel’, Simon became ‘Peter’…

So where is Jesus EVER said or called ‘YHWH’?? Nowhere!!!

The trinity writings INFER derogatorily that Jesus is YHWH… but nowhere show where this fallacy came from: One Person; One Name..

So, in the name of Jesus does not mean ‘in the name of God’, ‘in the name of YHWH’

YHWH is the name of the Father.
Jesus is the name of the Son

Therefore, in trinity, The Son is the Father: The Father is the Son.

Of course they will deny this truth of their ideology WHEN it’s pointed out to them - but when they are not being challenged directly, it IS their unspoken utterances! They just don’t see it until it’s pointed out them - too busy they are trying to squirm away from yet other truths set to them.

 

[jimb]

They were numbered 1 and 2.

1) Jesus is not "The Father"
2) You don't know the Hallowed name of "The Father"

the point of 2 === is that if you don't know the name of God ... aka don't know the name of which God you are referring to when you say "Jesus is God" .. then I say "Jesus is What God" .. which God is Jesus .. the God Ha Satan ? The Snake ? Chemosh .. Marduk . Beloved Baal, Asherah, YHWH, Jealous, Azazel.

What is the Hallowed name of the God Jesus is referring to as "The Father" .. correct that it is not Jesus..

1) Jesus, in John 10:30, said "The Father and I are one.”

This was followed by "The Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death."

Your 2) is meaningless. The Father's name is clearly spelled out in the Bible. Look for it.

 

[jimb]

Hello. Yes, it says, "In the beginning was the Word," but what was it the beginning...of?

Pre-existence.

 

[jimb]

They were numbered 1 and 2.

1) Jesus is not "The Father"
2) You don't know the Hallowed name of "The Father"

the point of 2 === is that if you don't know the name of God ... aka don't know the name of which God you are referring to when you say "Jesus is God" .. then I say "Jesus is What God" .. which God is Jesus .. the God Ha Satan ? The Snake ? Chemosh .. Marduk . Beloved Baal, Asherah, YHWH, Jealous, Azazel.

What is the Hallowed name of the God Jesus is referring to as "The Father" .. correct that it is not Jesus..

John 10:30, "I and the Father are one"
John 17:20-21, “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This si what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

 

[Sargonski]

1) Jesus, in John 10:30, said "The Father and I are one.”

This was followed by "The Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death."

Your 2) is meaningless. The Father's name is clearly spelled out in the Bible. Look for it.

a single cherry picked phrase that is interpreted many different ways - other than Jesus is calling himself the Father - against hundreds of instances of Jesus stating directly and indirectly that he is not the Father .. a "Father" who's name you don't know making claim that much more weak.

"My God, My God .. why have you forsaken me" ..

"Your Claim" - that this is the Primordial Supreme God hanging on the cross - who has forgotten who he is in some kind of masochistic delerium .. such that he starts calling out to himself .. claiming to have forsaken himself.

This is absurd .. and as you say "meaningless" as you havn't told us the name of this God who has placed himself on the cross to squirm like a worm .. helpless to get himself out of the dire situation.

This kind of puts the kaibosh on claims of all powerfull now doesn't it..

now prior to being hung on the cross .. Jesus tells "The Father" he does not want to go through with the planned crucifixion .. saying that in the end ... your Will not Mine .. Jesus will follow the will of the Supreme God .. and not his own will.

What part of .. Jesus does not think he is "The Father" .. is not crystal clear ? and we can go through hundreds of other similar examples .. Jesus saying he was sent by this God . This God saying "You are my son whom I love" ..

but perhaps an even bigger problem .. The original story .. long before the author of John penned that Gospel .. which is not a synoptic Gospel for a reason .. on the first page .. we are told Jesus is the annointed one of God .... the Messiah.

Whether it was Melchi-Zedek, Adoni-Zedek, King David, King Cyrus .. these annointed .. were not God .. they were the High Priests Annointed by God.

The Bible does not support this ridiculous idea that Jesus is "The Father" .. and even Trinity Docrine bauks on this to some degree. Bible Encyclopedia's will tell you the trinity doctrine is not found in NT-Scripture .. Guess your one misinterpreted passage was not convincing against a backdrop of hundreds of passages claiming otherwise.

 

[The Hammer]

The Sun

 

[jimb]

a single cherry picked phrase that is interpreted many different ways - other than Jesus is calling himself the Father - against hundreds of instances of Jesus stating directly and indirectly that he is not the Father .. a "Father" who's name you don't know making claim that much more weak.

"My God, My God .. why have you forsaken me" ..

"Your Claim" - that this is the Primordial Supreme God hanging on the cross - who has forgotten who he is in some kind of masochistic delerium .. such that he starts calling out to himself .. claiming to have forsaken himself.

This is absurd .. and as you say "meaningless" as you havn't told us the name of this God who has placed himself on the cross to squirm like a worm .. helpless to get himself out of the dire situation.

This kind of puts the kaibosh on claims of all powerfull now doesn't it..

now prior to being hung on the cross .. Jesus tells "The Father" he does not want to go through with the planned crucifixion .. saying that in the end ... your Will not Mine .. Jesus will follow the will of the Supreme God .. and not his own will.

What part of .. Jesus does not think he is "The Father" .. is not crystal clear ? and we can go through hundreds of other similar examples .. Jesus saying he was sent by this God . This God saying "You are my son whom I love" ..

but perhaps an even bigger problem .. The original story .. long before the author of John penned that Gospel .. which is not a synoptic Gospel for a reason .. on the first page .. we are told Jesus is the annointed one of God .... the Messiah.

Whether it was Melchi-Zedek, Adoni-Zedek, King David, King Cyrus .. these annointed .. were not God .. they were the High Priests Annointed by God.

The Bible does not support this ridiculous idea that Jesus is "The Father" .. and even Trinity Docrine bauks on this to some degree. Bible Encyclopedia's will tell you the trinity doctrine is not found in NT-Scripture .. Guess your one misinterpreted passage was not convincing against a backdrop of hundreds of passages claiming otherwise.

When you even begin to understand the Trinity and/or God the Father's relationship with Jesus, the Son, we can continue this discussion. Until then, what is the point?

P.S. You should use a spell-checker.

 

[Trailblazer]

1) Jesus, in John 10:30, said "The Father and I are one.”

This was followed by "The Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death."

The reason that the Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death is because they thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but that does not mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. Jesus was not claiming to be God.

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father since the Father possesses certain Attributes that the Son does not possess. There are Attributes that are unique to God: Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and nobody except God can have those Attributes.

However, the Father is in the Son because Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Jesus was a Servant of God and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus clearly differentiated Himself from the Father in the verses above and that alone means that Jesus could not be the Father.