• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Which Theory of Evolution do you Believe?

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Well here is what is funny about that:

The term theory comes from the root word Theo which means God and and the original intent of a theory was to explain philosophical and sometimes scientific ideas.

Now scientists hijacked that term to make it so restrictive no new ideas can be presented and are suppressed before they can even be considered.

Sort of like what is happening in this forum ;)
If the scientists are doing something wrong in "hijacking" this term then so are you. Your definition of the word did not mention "God" either.

But no, you did nothing wrong in defining your term. As you will recall I said it was very helpful. If we are going to try to understand each other we need to understand how we are each using this word. Whether you agree or not, first you have to understand what it is you are agreeing or disagreeing with. You need to understand when the word theory is used in a scientific context, ie, the theory of evolution, the theory of gravity, the theory of relativity they do not mean a supposition.

They mean this:
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.

New ideas can be considered, but the word for that is hypothesis, not theory.

Yes it does matter if we want to understand each other.
 
Last edited:

Dante Writer

Active Member
If the scientists are doing something wrong in "hijacking" this term then so are you. Your definition of the word did not mention "God" either.

But no, you did nothing wrong in defining your term. As you will recall I said it was very helpful. If we are going to try to understand each other we need to understand how we are each using this word. Whether you agree or not, first you have to understand what it is you are agreeing or disagreeing with. You need to understand when the word theory is used in a scientific context, ie, the theory of evolution, the theory of gravity, the theory of relativity they do not mean a supposition.

They mean this:
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.

New ideas can be considered, but the word for that is hypothesis, not theory.

Yes it does matter if we want to understand each other.

I think THEORY as being the root word Theo or God pretty much covered that.

I have a M.Ed and a I am a Health Ed. Specialist and was a professional educator for over 20 years so I am very aware of the scientific method.
you can also stop thinking your are teaching me something new.

That is a method used to TEST a hypothesis and the only way to get any action to test a hypothesis is to present it which in general has been suppressed by science that uses that definition to say you can not present a hypothesis that might invalidate our theory.

Since we are on a forum for both evolution and creationism you can not apply your definition to creationists and my definition is more general and covers all the bases without suppressing ideas.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
There is one ToE, with a great many mechanisms involved.

Front loaded evolution
is theology, not evolution. Evo-Devo isn't a mechanism of evolution, but a comparative research method. NGE is not a separate theory of evolution, but an exploration of some of the mechanisms involved. Somatic evolution, too, is just the study of mutation accumulation, not a separate discipline, Structuralism is just randomness within the process, and McIntoshe's 'Platonic' evolution is just teliological speculation. "Self organization" is just chemistry. Epigenetics is a newly discovered genetic process, not an independent theory. Symbiogenesis is an evolutionary mechanism, maybe more an ecological mechanism, not a new ToE. Teiological selection seems more speculation than mechanism, an attempt to expand "function" to "purpose."

None of these are separate or competing theories of evolution. None presupposes intentionality or extrinsic guidance except maybe Front loading and biological teliology. Both are speculative and strike me as a priori reasoning.

How did you miss Gould's punctuated equilibrium, by the way?
Sounds like a good summary to me.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Reality?

Evolution is still a theory and in fact is several theories with believers or supporters in all camps.

the·o·ry

  1. a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
It is now obvious that you are unfamiliar with even basic science, because here's how "theory" is defined within that perspective: A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.

So, it is rather obvious that any attempt to discuss anything scientific with you, whereas you don't even know a basic definition on something so basic as this is to science, is clearly fruitless. And any religious approach that simply ignores reality so as to formulate its mythology while ignoring objective study diminishes any claim to reality and even common sense. I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that taught such nonsense, went on to get a graduate degree in anthropology and taught the subject for 30 years. I also switched to a much more pro-scientific religious bent, never to return to the distortions and ignorance taught by my former denomination.

However, I will give you the last word since we have nothing in common religiously or scientifically, so this discussion would simply go nowhere fast.
 

Dante Writer

Active Member
It is now obvious that you are unfamiliar with even basic science, because here's how "theory" is defined within that perspective: A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.

So, it is rather obvious that any attempt to discuss anything scientific with you, whereas you don't even know a basic definition on something so basic as this is to science, is clearly fruitless. And any religious approach that simply ignores reality so as to formulate its mythology while ignoring objective study diminishes any claim to reality and even common sense. I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that taught such nonsense, went on to get a graduate degree in anthropology and taught the subject for 30 years. I also switched to a much more pro-scientific religious bent, never to return to the distortions and ignorance taught by my former denomination.

However, I will give you the last word since we have nothing in common religiously or scientifically, so this discussion would simply go nowhere fast.


Let's broaden your horizons:

the·o·ry

  1. a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
Now do you know the root of Theory is Theo which is God and the term Theory was first used to discuss philosophy, religion and some science ideas.

Scientists hijacked that term (the same people that deny God) for their own use and perverted it to tie anyone with a religious or philosophical point of view from claiming a theory and to prevent other scientists from challenging established theories with new hypothesis.

So you can hogtie your self to that definition if you want but considering this is a forum for the discussion of both evolution and creationism the more general definition is what I will be using and if you don't like that you do not have to read or respond to my discussions.

Your loss!
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Most scientists are theists or agnostics-- very few proportionally are out-and-out atheists. The branch with the least number of theists is cosmology followed by physicists, and the most is biologists.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Since we are on a forum for both evolution and creationism you can not apply your definition to creationists and my definition is more general and covers all the bases without suppressing ideas.
You are absolutely right, I completely agree with you. The definition of a scientific theory cannot be applied to creationism. And it can't be applied to intelligent design. And it can't be applied to astrology, or palm reading. These things are not scientific theories. And we are not going to change or ignore the definition because some people don't think it is fair. Evolution is a scientific theory. It has been repeatedly tested and confirmed through empirical observation and experimentation. Intelligent design may be a supposition, but it is not a scientific theory. I am sorry if this upsets you.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Slightly off topic, how do you square Judaism, which has a basis in Theism, with an atheistic(?) approach? Do the religious rituals, etc, ''mean'' anything besides just a set of physical motions,? etc
I'm really not sure where you're coming from on this, especially your use of the word "atheistic" in this context. Maybe you can elaborate on what you're asking here? I'll be leaving shortly, so if I can't get back to you tonight, I'll do so tomorrow.
 

Dante Writer

Active Member
You are absolutely right, I completely agree with you. The definition of a scientific theory cannot be applied to creationism. And it can't be applied to intelligent design. And it can't be applied to astrology, or palm reading. These things are not scientific theories. And we are not going to change or ignore the definition because some people don't think it is fair. Evolution is a scientific theory. It has been repeatedly tested and confirmed through empirical observation and experimentation. Intelligent design may be a supposition, but it is not a scientific theory. I am sorry if this upsets you.

"These things are not scientific theories"

Yes because space travel, life on other planets and cloning and genetic modification is all religion right?

You might want to tell that to Dawkin's, Crick, NASA and SETI!

BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution?

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it’s possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I'm really not sure where you're coming from on this, especially your use of the word "atheistic" in this context. Maybe you can elaborate on what you're asking here? I'll be leaving shortly, so if I can't get back to you tonight, I'll do so tomorrow.

It's merely a general question. Since it's off topic anyway, you can answer it /if you want/, elsewhere
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It's merely a general question. Since it's off topic anyway, you can answer it /if you want/, elsewhere
I'm not an atheist, if that's what you're asking. However, my religious approach is very "liberal"-- whatever caused this universe/multiverse I'll call "God" and I pretty much just leave it at that.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
"These things are not scientific theories"

Yes because space travel, life on other planets and cloning and genetic modification is all religion right?

You might want to tell that to Dawkin's, Crick, NASA and SETI!

BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution?

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it’s possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer
Please try to pay attention. I said Creationism, Intelligent Design, Astrology, and Palm reading were not scientific theories. I did not say anything about space travel, life on other planets, cloning or genetic modification. Mis-characterizing what I said does not win you any points.

And just because Dawkins hypothesized about something does not make it a scientific theory. A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation. Dawkins musing does not equate confirmation through observation and experimentation. Dawkins would be the first to tell you that.
 

Dante Writer

Active Member
Please try to pay attention. I said Creationism, Intelligent Design, Astrology, and Palm reading were not scientific theories. I did not say anything about space travel, life on other planets, cloning or genetic modification. Mis-characterizing what I said does not win you any points.

And just because Dawkins hypothesized about something does not make it a scientific theory. A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation. Dawkins musing does not equate confirmation through observation and experimentation. Dawkins would be the first to tell you that.


AND that is a perfect example of how scientists have perverted that term to prevent any new idea from challenging their established money making theories!

Dawkin's described a mechanism for life on earth that used all verified scientific theories including evolution.

You can accept that or not and I don't care!

As I have told you before- if you do not like my discussions no one forces you to read them or respond and you can just ignore them.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
AND that is a perfect example of how scientists have perverted that term to prevent any new idea from challenging their established money making theories!

Dawkin's described a mechanism for life on earth that used all verified scientific theories including evolution.

You can accept that or not and I don't care!

As I have told you before- if you do not like my discussions no one forces you to read them or respond and you can just ignore them.
I am enjoying myself more then I can tell you. :D You are a great source of amusement.

Dawkins answered the question with a supposition. Yes, he presented a supposition based on his scientific knowledge. But still a supposition is not the same thing as something that has been verified through observation and experimentation. Obviously nothing, not even the definition of scientific theory prevented him from considering the idea. But we still must make a distinction between something that has been verified, and something that has not. If we don't make that distinction we can never make any progress.

Once again, pay attention. Creationism and intelligent design are not scientific theories. Evolution is a scientific theory.
 

Dante Writer

Active Member
I am enjoying myself more then I can tell you. :D You are a great source of amusement.

Dawkins answered the question with a supposition. Yes, he presented a supposition based on his scientific knowledge. But still a supposition is not the same thing as something that has been verified through observation and experimentation. Obviously nothing, not even the definition of scientific theory prevented him from considering the idea. But we still must make a distinction between something that has been verified, and something that has not. If we don't make that distinction we can never make any progress.

Once again, pay attention. Creationism and intelligent design are not scientific theories. Evolution is a scientific theory.


Repeating your same nonsense did not make it somehow more intelligent!
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I find it extremely annoying when people say they believe in Evolution but can't even identify which theory/hypothesis of evolution they claim to believe and most people have no clue that there are several theories of evolution
I find it annoying, although completely understandable, when people misunderstand what "theory" means in scientific practice (including when would-be stalwart defenders of The Scientific Method myth, whose knowledge of scientific practice is limited to textbook descriptions that scientific organizations such as the National Academy of Sciences and the AAAS have fought against, declare that in the sciences something that is "theory" isn't "just a theory" but something akin to fact). The "theory of evolution" is an incredibly successful, incredibly broad framework for understanding everything from the dynamics of empirical investigations into changes between individual generations of fruit flies, the entirety of evolutionary psychology, numerous fields within computer science, particular approaches to understanding the most fundamental questions within cosmology and theoretical physics, and of course practically all biological sciences. Theories are frameworks and/or models wherein particular phenomena and/or processes of particular types are explained, expanded, interpreted, tested, and understood via components of these frameworks, the application of logic, and empirical findings. Evolutionary theory is so broad a framework entire sciences (like evolutionary psychology) are founded upon it. It is not reducible to any singular proposition, statement, or description but is, like fields of science more generally, singular at its core whilst details of particular phenomena that it describes and explains can be more open to disagreement as can interpretations of more general aspects of the theory. This is often true of theories, though seldom are they as successful or as broad as evolutionary theory. In quantum mechanics, for instance (perhaps the most successful scientific theory ever), what exactly the theory even IS and what it entails has been a matter of extreme debate since its inception.

The differing terms you use do not describe different theories of evolution, but differing processes and components of evolutionary theory. These are neither as distinct nor as incompatible as say, gravitation in general relativity, quantum mechanics, and particle physics (or as classical vs. embodied theories of cognition or even approaches to biology, such as relational biology as compared to computational).

Because of evolutionary theory's enormous success at explaining such diverse phenomena and as a tool more generally, naturally we find not only different processes at play within the framework but also differing opinions about particular details. This doesn't involve different theories anymore than the fact that e.g., there have been several decades over the temporal vs. rate neural code, the independence of difference quantum field theories, the diverse number of generative linguistic models (e.g., the classic TGG, government & binding, principles & parameters, and minimalism), and so forth, somehow entail differing theories. In fact, in each case mentioned the differences are in fact less than the so-called differing "theories" of evolution you list.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The science of evolution is the study of how life formed on this planet using some mechanism of evolution within and among species.
Since Darwin, evolution has not even attempted to explain how life formed, as the "evolution" of species assumes there exist species that evolve. There can be no evolution without species, and therefore evolutionary theory (or the "science of evolution") cannot possibly involve how life formed on this planet. Such questions are, of course, asked, in everything from astrobiology and theoretical physics to mathematical biology and systems sciences. But evolution describes processes and dynamics of living systems, not their ultimate origins.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The term theory comes from the root word Theo which means God
Wrong. I take it you can't read ancient Greek or Latin. The term actually comes from θεωρία (from θεώρημα, itself from θεάομαι; neither of which are etymologically related to theos but rather to a word meaning "sight" or observation") which refers to observing. The post-classical Latin transliteration theoria, whence the French theorie and then English "theory" were derived, was likewise related to observation, only more generalized.

If you can't even get something as simple as fact-checking linguistic relationships or etymology right, how do you expect to accurately describe the nature of scientific theory itself and/or a scientific framework/theory that has been supported, expanded, tested, and developed for over a century in over a dozen fields? To realize you were wrong about the etymological basis of "theory", you need have only checked a single source: the OED. To understand the nature of theories and evolutionary theory, you'd have to actually understand much more about the nature of science (NoS), biology, etc., then can be contained in a textbook, let alone an entry in a dictionary.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I find it extremely annoying when people say they believe in Evolution but can't even identify which theory/hypothesis of evolution they claim to believe and most people have no clue that there are several theories of evolution:

Evolution by Natural Selection, Front-loaded Evolution, Evolutionary Developmental Biology (Evo-Devo), Evolution by Natural Genetic Engineering, Somatic Selection, Structuralist / Platonic Evolution, Biological Self-Organization, Epigenetic Evolution, Evolution by Symbiogenesis, and Teleological Selection.

So which of those theories of evolution do you believe because some are very different in their ideas of the process and you can't just say you believe in Evolution if you can't identify which theory.

If you do not know what those theories are you can start here and I have no connection to the website:

https://www.classicalconversations....d-many-theories-evolution-and-why-they-matter

Do you believe in gravity?

If yes, which theory?

1) newtonian
2) general relativity
3) quantum gravity
4) string theory
5) twistors
Etc.

There are so many, that we cannot possibly call ourselves believers in gravitation. Ergo, there is no gravity. Cool, I always wanted to lose some weight.

Ciao

- viole
I
 
Top