Which Came First Dao or God?

[wizanda]

I've always thought the Dao was the wisdom, that was there within the reality created by God... Do you know where the Dao is stated to existed before God?

 

[Iti oj]

Me thinks you are asking the wrong question. There is only dao

 

[Sees]

And religious/theistic Taoism is polytheistic...

 

[Iti oj]

And religious/theistic Taoism is polytheistic...

I would note that.is not the dao taught by the original masters but an off shoot. Taoism in its original form was more transtheistic or atheistic.

 

[Baladas]

In my understanding, if there are any anthropomorphic deities, then they too are from Tao.
Tao is said to be "the mother of all".

 

[wizanda]

60
Ruling a large country is like cooking a small fish
Using the Tao to manage the world
Its demons have no power
Not only do its demons have no power
Its gods do not harm people

Not only do its gods not harm people
The sages also do not harm people
They both do no harm to one another
So virtue merges and returns

That indicates in a way that the Dao is an authority over the gods; yet then was that the original creator who first manifest reality?

 

[Iti oj]

In my understanding, if there are any anthropomorphic deities, then they too are from Tao.
Tao is said to be "the mother of all".

Indeed in all th

That indicates in a way that the Dao is an authority over the gods; yet then was that the original creator who first manifest reality?

Theism is not the point. Thats why you are confused. Nothing wrong with theistic taoism but it doesn't stem from the tao te ching

 

[Iti oj]

Also the dao is eternal. So still wrong question

 

[Sees]

And reality has always existed...

It's debatable if theisitic Taoism was introduced later, I don't think it was. There are only little glimpses here and there in the Tao Te Ching - but it was a philosophy/wisdom guide and not religious instruction. Most think Taoism stems from shamanistic, animistic ascetics...Lao's "ancient masters"

 

[wizanda]

1
The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things

This indicates that the Dao helped create the heaven and earth; thus the eternal wisdom or logic that was used.
Note how the Tao Te Ching separates the gods into something lower (60), that have to attain the Dao to find Oneness and completeness (39)....Thus they are not there at the eternal level; which is why i asked the question using 'God', meaning beyond an eternal level and clearly complete.

 

[Sees]

This indicates that the Dao helped create the heaven and earth; thus the eternal wisdom or logic that was used.
Note how the Tao Te Ching separates the gods into something lower (60), that have to attain the Dao to find Oneness and completeness (39)....Thus they are not there at the eternal level; which is why i asked the question using 'God', meaning beyond an eternal level and clearly complete.

In Taoism the Tao is eternal All, all forms and formless essence, constantly evolving and changing...Gods or not - all named things are forms which are still Tao. Make sense?

Think eternal wholeness and all-ness rather than one deity pressing "start"

 

[Iti oj]

This indicates that the Dao helped create the heaven and earth; thus the eternal wisdom or logic that was used.
Note how the Tao Te Ching separates the gods into something lower (60), that have to attain the Dao to find Oneness and completeness (39)....Thus they are not there at the eternal level; which is why i asked the question using 'God', meaning beyond an eternal level and clearly complete.

there is only the dao

 

[wizanda]

In Taoism the Tao is eternal All, all forms and formless essence, constantly evolving and changing...

Thank you, i get what you're saying.... Yet the Dao formed the myriad of things, thus in a sense that is equal to the God.

Maybe Lao Tzu was saying the gods (mythologies of his time) were simple; therefore there must be a supreme intelligence above it all, that he gave a name Dao to....If we define it as 'the God' and give it a name, it is no longer eternal or without debate.

Gods or not - all named things are forms which are still Tao. Make sense?

Nope, as not all things are Dao. Things can attain Dao, Dao can help manifest things; yet it is like an essence such as wisdom or logic.
We can not say all things are logical or wise.

Think eternal wholeness and all-ness rather than one deity pressing "start"

The Dao is emptiness.

 

[Iti oj]

The dao isn't logical or wise the dao just is. The dao is in all things and all things.come from it. Your applying concepts that don't belong

 

[Sees]

Thank you, i get what you're saying.... Yet the Dao formed the myriad of things, thus in a sense that is equal to the God.

Maybe Lao Tzu was saying the gods (mythologies of his time) were simple; therefore there must be a supreme intelligence above it all, that he gave a name Dao to....If we define it as 'the God' and give it a name, it is no longer eternal or without debate.

Nope, as not all things are Dao. Things can attain Dao, Dao can help manifest things; yet it is like an essence such as wisdom or logic.
We can not say all things are logical or wise.

The Dao is emptiness.

Check this out #1 if interested | ReligiousForums.com

 

[Kirran]

The Dao is the eternal Dao, it is just the fact that there is existence. Similar to how I understand Brahman to be.

As for religious Daoism, I think this is an infusion of Daoist idea into pre-existing folk religion.

 

[wizanda]

The dao isn't logical or wise the dao just is.

Well the Dao isn't illogical or dumb either.

The dao is in all things and all things come from it.

That is like saying the Dao has the qualities many ascribe to God.... Though the Dao isn't in all things, somethings refuse it.
All things can be observed within Daoist thinking, and the myriad of things came from the Dao.

 

[fiat lux]

There is no analogy between Tao and any of our ideas of God - ideas which can be either obeyed or disobeyed, or to attempt to float and observe on a cloud of neutrality, the Tao is that from which we cannot deviate.

 

[wizanda]

There is no analogy between Tao and any of our ideas of God

My understanding of God is like a CPU outputting the reality; so it can easily fit with Dao.
That same concept can be found where Brahman breaths out a poem or YHVH speaks the word, is the code (Dao) creating the reality we see around us.

Therefore we can find the Dao, like the subtle intelligent wisdom that is interwoven into reality...Then from observation by Lao Tzu, summarized and rewritten as a way.

The idea that things were made manifest by Dao, isn't different then the word (code) spoken by Brahman, YHWH or God, has intelligence within it.

 

[Iti oj]

Well the Dao isn't illogical or dumb either.

.

Though there is wisdom in the dao the dao is not wisdom. Though there is logic in the dao the dao is not logic. Simple mindedness is considered the height of wisdom in daoism.

That is like saying the Dao has the qualities many ascribe to God.... Though the Dao isn't in all things, somethings refuse it.

Any similarities you see are superficial at best.The dao is in all things whether one has balance and lives in harmony with the dao is another thing.

All things can be observed within Daoist thinking, and the myriad of things came from the Dao

The dao isnt the source the dao just is. Just like we just are. it just is. it just!

Therefore we can find the Dao, like the subtle intelligent wisdom that is interwoven into reality..

except that its not. Stop viewing things through a monotheistic lens.