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Featured Where's the devil?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Theo102, Feb 9, 2020.

  1. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    No, the identity of "The Devil" depends on context. In the context of this thread "The Devil" is associated with the dragon who deceived the world. Fallible humans are more likely to be deceived than to be the authors of deception.
     
  2. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    As I said, Abraham knew nothing of Islam, and neither did Ishmael.

    The Bible [KJB] itself, God's perfectly inspired, preserved and eternal word [Psalms 12:6-7, 105:8, 119:89,160; Isaiah 40:8; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33; John 10:35; 2 Timothy 3:10-17 KJB], though it does not agree with the Islamic aHadith sources in the specifics of Ishmael's spouses, [similarly, though not exactly], nor even of the specifics of his migrational location does declare that there were indeed peoples already populated in the Arabian peninsula, specifically from the time just after the flood of Noah, when his descendants spread out over the earth, from "Shem, Ham and Japheth" [Genesis 5:32 KJB]. However, before considering those events, I wanted to look at the origin and later migration of Ishmael himself from the Bible's [KJB] texts.

    Ishmael, according to the Bible [KJB] was born of the lineage of Abraham [a 'son' [descendant] of "Eber", hence "Abram the Hebrew" [Genesis 14:13 KJB; see also Genesis 39:14,17 KJB and so also Joseph, son of Jacob/Israel [grandson of Abraham], was an “Hebrew”, as per Genesis 41:12 KJB]] and of Hagar [an Egyptian slave-girl given to Sarai/h to be a bondservant, by a king of Egypt; Genesis 16:1-3,8,10, 17:20, 21:9-21, 25:12,17; Galatians 4:21-31 KJB] as may be seen from Genesis 16:10, 17:20, 1 Chronicles 1:28 KJB.

    This means that of origin biologically, geographically and of language, Ishmael was an Hebrew [father's side] - Egyptian [mother's side] born [Genesis 16:3, see also "plain of Mamre", Genesis 14:13, 18:1, 49:30 KJB] and sojourned in the land of Canaan [a 'son' of Ham; Genesis 10:6,20; 1 Chronicles 1:8 KJB], and thus may be rightly called [a coined phrase] 'an Hegyptian Canaanite', whose native language/s was/were not Arabic, but that of Abraham [ie, Chaldean, see "Ur of the Chaldeees" Genesis 11:28,31, 15:7, 24:4; Nehemiah 9:7 KJB] and even of his mother, ie Egyptian, and possibly even of the langauge of Canaan, having sojourned there.

    There were already peoples in the Arabian peninsula [as spread all over], such as the Joktanite [Genesis 10:25-29; 1 Chronicles 1:19-23 KJB], and the Palgite [of Peleg, the Pelegite, Genesis 10:25, 11:16-19; 1 Chronicles 1:19,25 KJB], and even the Albert Barnes Commentary picks up on this, saying, “... The Ishmaelites constituted the second element of the great Arab nation ...”, though according to other and greater evidences, may not even be the "second element", as Albert Barnes says eleswhere, on Genesis 25:6, " ... These descendants of Abraham and Keturah are the third contribution of Palgites to the Joktanites, who constituted the original element of the Arabs ...". Places/cities like "Hazarmaveth" [named after the son of "Joktan", see Genesis 10:26; 1 Chronicles 1:20 KJB] were already in existence then, as others. Moreoever, "Uz" [Genesis 10:22; 1 Chronicles 1:17 KJB], and the "Sinites" [of 'Sin' or 'Sinai', Genesis 10:17 KJB] were also present. Even the children of Ham, having moved down into Canaan, Egypt, and in the Arabian areas would have sojourned there.

    In Genesis 17:20 KJB, God promises, "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."

    Since this is so, and there were peoples already in the Arabian peninsula, and Ishmael was not yet made "a great nation", he cannot [logically, evidentially] be "the" [singular, definite article] 'Father of the Arab/s', from a Biblical [KJB] perspective. Is he an ancestor to some who were later born in Arabia, and who spoke a form of Arabic dialect? Absolutely, but it does not make him "the" Father of all the people groups in the Arabian peninsula, even though he was to be a "great nation". If I were to say otherwise, that would be overstatment of the facts, from all sources thus searched.

    Even beyond this, when Ishmael and his mother, Hagar, were to be "cast out" [Genesis 21:10 KJB] at the behest of Sarah, and confirmed by God [Genesis 21:12 KJB], they first went into the "wilderness of Beersheba" [Genesis 21:14 KJB], which is where Ishmael "grew" and "dwelt" [Genesis 21:20 KJB], and thus "dwelt in the wlderness of Paran" [Genesis 21:21 KJB, see and compare Genesis 14:5-7; Numbers 10:11-13, 12:15-16, 13:1-3,25-27; Deuteronomy 1:1-2, 33:1-2; 1 Samuel 25:1; 1 Kings 11:17-19; Habakkuk 3:3 KJB], his mother, Hagar, taking "him a wife out of the land of Egypt" [Genesis 21:21 KJB], being her native homeland, and closer to that area. Thus the children of Ishmael's first wife, would be 2/3rd's Egyptian, 1/3 Hebrew, and would speak a combination of Egyptian/Canaanite/Chaldean. Neither Arabian blood, nor language even comes into this mixture at this point, though they were to live in the "east country" [Genesis 25:6 KJB].

    Abraham, after the death of Sarah [Genesis 23:1-20 KJB], "again ... took a wife, and her name was Keturah." [Genesis 25:1 KJB], whose sons were "Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah." [Genesis 25:2 KJB], "And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. ..." [Genesis 25:3 KJB], whose names are still found in the cities of the Arabian penisula [see Genesis 25:1-4; 1 Chronicles 1:32,33 KJB], such as Dedanim [Isaiah 21:13 KJB], and Midian, as well as descendants of Amalek [no primary relation to Ishmael [* see below], except through possible later co-mingling], and also of Esau [Edomites, Idumeans], etc. These having no relation to Ishmael's line, except through later co-mingling, among the Ishmeelites, Midianites, Edomites, Egyptians, Persians, Syrians, etc. There are texts which declare that the sons/descendants of Ishmael migrated further into the Arabian peninsula, such as "Kedar", "Tema" etc. whose cities names are named after there, [see Genesis 28:9, 36:3; 1 Chronicles 5:18-23; Job 6:19-20; Isaiah 21:13-17, 42:11, 60:5-7; Jeremiah 2:10, 25:17-33, 49:28-33; Ezekiel 27:21; Psalms 120:1-7 KJB].

    The word Arabia, means to mix, to be intermingled, a mixed multitude, and from that we can see this in Genesis 37:25-28, 39:1; Judges 8:21-28; 1 Chronicles 2:17, 5:10,19,20, 27:30,31; Psalms 83:6; Galatians 4:22-31 KJB.

    As far as the Bible [KJB] is concerned, it never specifically states that Ishmael himself moved into the Arbaian peninsula, though it is possible being to the "east" (but really it was north-eastern above the peninsula), but even this of itself would not make him Arabian [Moses was born in Egypt, it doesn't make him Egyptian, and lived in Midian, it doesn't make him of Midian], nor the Father of all Arabians, but simply a sojourner there, his children, according to the Bible [KJB], being of Hebrew/Egyptian/Egyptian [father, mother [Hagar, and the Hagarenes], wife] blood at the first, then later becoming more intermingled among the various people groups who were already in the region [whether partially Egyptian, Canaanite, Joktanite, Palgite, Sinite, etc].

    Even from Islamic sources, Arabia was already filled with peoples of various origins, such as the Jurhum, and people of Qahtan, etc.

    For instance:

    Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 597:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah's Apostle was asked, "Who is the most honorable amongst the people?" He replied, "The most Allah fearing." The people said, "We do not want to ask you about this." He said, "The most honorable person is Joseph, Allah's Prophet, the son of Allah's Prophet, the son of Allah's Prophet, the son of Allah's Khalil" The people said, 'We do not want to ask you about this." He said," Then you want to ask me about the origins of the Arabs? People are of various origins. The best in the pre-lslamic period are the best in Islam, provided they comprehend (the religious knowledge)."
    The "Ibrahim" (not Abraham) of qur'an is a convoluted mess of Jewish and Christian and Sabean, etc source material. In other words, not a real historic person, but simply one made up borrowing from real sources and altering them.
     
    #62 coconut theology, Feb 9, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  3. EtuMalku

    EtuMalku MERCURÆN LUCIFERIAN

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    An Abrahamic religion is a religion whose followers believe in the prophet Abraham and his sons/grandsons to hold an important role in human spiritual development. The best known Abrahamic religions are Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

    https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Abrahamic_religions
     
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  4. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    I just showed you the mistaken notion of such an thing. The Encyclopedic entry is ecumenical nonsense and historic revisionism.
     
  5. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    No, you're assuming that the explanation conformed to Pauline doctrine.

    The closest match is from Hosea:

    After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
    Hosea 6:2
     
  6. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Jesus is directly speaking as recorded by Luke. Paul had nothing to do with it.
     
  7. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Then your claims about 'slander' are meaningless.
     
  8. EtuMalku

    EtuMalku MERCURÆN LUCIFERIAN

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    Judaism and Jews are mentioned throughout the Quran
    References to Jews in the Koran

    The Quran Affirms:
    Paul Passed On The True Gospel of Christ
    The Quran Affirms: Paul Passed On The True Gospel of Christ
     
  9. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Again, you are mistaken and didn't bother to read the text I cited. It said:

    Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
    Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.​

    You are looking for a direct quote, when the scripture is replete with typology. Jesus even pointed to Jonas (Jonah) as one such, among all the others.
     
  10. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    It's not unusual for "new world" sources to buy into the humanist paradigm. The human condition was described by Cicero as homo humanus, which was distinct from homo barbarus, the "barbarians" who were the notional reason for Roman citizens to seek protection by the Roman state.
     
  11. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    At any rate, the question of the OP, Where is the devil, has been answered by the real Holy Scripture (KJB).
     
  12. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    You are wrong, and you have no way of knowing what I read. The point is that the Christian doctrine of the resurrection doesn't validate in the Bible. If you disagree then it's up to you to find a better match than Hosea 6:2 for Luke 24:46.

    Luke 24:46 implies that a direct quote should exist.

    And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    Luke 24:46
     
  13. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    From your link:

    "We base our position on the Quranic claim that Christ’s true believers would prevail over the unbelievers till the Day of Resurrection:"

    The source text doesn't mention Christ, it says Jesus.
     
  14. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    No, you're conflating specific slander with general slander.

    Since Exodus 20:16 refers to slander it follows that it's meaningful to refer to the devil in that context, since devil means slanderer. For a specific slanderer, Job's Satan associates with Hebrew words translated at "devils" via sacrifice.
     
  15. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    The point is that you're interpreting what was said according to Pauline doctrine when his doctrine doesn't validate.

    Abraham knew of the commandments of YHWH, and the Quran endorses these via the Torah and speaks of submission to Allah (Islam means submission), so Abraham knew of the essence of Islam.

    That's absurd. The Quran doesn't slander anyone.
     
    #75 Theo102, Feb 9, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  16. Ancient Soul

    Ancient Soul The Spiritual Universe

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    Where is the devil??

    I've always been told that the devil is in the details. so try looking there. If not there, then try looking under the sofa, most everything ends up there at one time or another.
     
  17. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    That's a lot of work. It's reasonable to follow the direct associations, and that leads to sacrifice.
     
  18. Ancient Soul

    Ancient Soul The Spiritual Universe

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    Joking aside, the devil/Satan does not exist.

    Such an entity goes against God's very nature and plan for all souls. It's just another man made myth that is an integral part of all bible related religions FEAR mongering brainwashing systems.
     
  19. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    How do you know that your idea isn't your own man-made myth? Fear can save your life, the trick is to know what is worthy of fear and what isn't.
     
  20. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    First of all...if people really understood the book of Revelation..
    They would see and find out the devil has not been cast out of heaven yet..
    Not until the sounding of the
    6th trumpet.
    We are entering the 5th seal of Revelation at this point and the devil isn't cast out of heaven until the sounding of the
    6th trumpet of the book of Revelation.
     
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