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Featured Where's the devil?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Theo102, Feb 9, 2020.

  1. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Surah 1 Al-Fatihah:

    Sahih International
    The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.

    Jews

    Christians

    Al-Hilali-Khan Surah Al Fatihah 1:7 - The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace , not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

    Tafsir of al Jalalayn on Al Fatihah [1:7]

    "... the path of those whom You have favoured, with guidance (from alladhīna together with its relative clause is substituted by [ghayri l-maghdūbi ‘alayhim]) not [the path] of those against whom there is wrath, namely, the Jews, and nor of those who are astray, namely, the Christians. The subtle meaning implied by this substitution is that the guided ones are neither the Jews nor the Christians. But God knows best what is right, and to Him is the Return and the [final] Resort. May God bless our master Muhammad (s), his Family and Companions and grant them everlasting peace. Sufficient is God for us; an excellent Guardian is He. There is no power and no strength save in God, the High, the Tremendous. Medinese: [consisting of] 286 or 287 verses..."​

    Tafsir of al Qurtubi on Al Fatihah [1:7]

    "... The majority say that those with anger on them are the Jews and the misguided are the Christians. That was explained by the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, in the J:tadith of 'Ad! ibn I:Iatim and the story of how he became Muslim, transmitted by Abu Dawud in his Musnad and at- irmidhi: in his Collection. That explanation is also attested to by the Almighty who says about the Jews, "They brought down anger from Allah upon themselves" (2:61, 3:112) and He says, "Allah is angry with them." (48:6) He says about the Christians that they, "were misguided previously and have misguided many others, and are far from the right way." (5:77) ..."​

    Surah 98:6 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

    “... Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.[1] ...”​

    Such "Jews" and "Christians" as mentioned in this qur'anic text, aren't even 'human beings', but are classified as "the worst of creatures", while faithful Muslims are considered "the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind" (Al-Hilali-Khan Surah 3:110).

    Surah 88:2-7 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

    “... [v.2] Some faces, that Day will be humiliated (in the Hell-fire, i.e. the faces of all disbelievers, Jews and Christians).[1] [v.3] Labouring (hard in the worldly life by worshipping others besides Allah), weary (in the Hereafter with humility and disgrace).[1] [v.4] They will enter in the hot blazing Fire. [v.5] They will be given to drink from a boiling spring, [v.6] No food will there be for them but a poisonous thorny plant, [v.7] Which will neither nourish nor avail against hunger. ...”​

    Jami at-Tirmidhi, Volume 6, Glossary; page 584-585 -

    “... [page 584] Jahannam: Most commonly understood to mean Hell described as a place of torment, sorrow, and remorse. Islam teaches that God does not wish [page 584-585] to send anyone to Hell, yet justice demands that righteous people be rewarded and those who insist on evil living without repentance and on denial of God be punished. In fact, it is one of the levels of Hell. There are seven levels of Hell-fire: 1. Jahim—the shallowest level of Hell. It is reserved for those who believed in Allah and His Messenger, but who ignored His commands. 2. Jahannam—a deeper level where the idol-worshippers are to be sent on the Day of Judgment. 3. Sa'ir—is reserved for the worshippers of fire. 4. Saqar—this is where those who did not believe in Allah will be sent on the Day of Judgment. 5. Ladha—will be the home of the Jews. 6. Hawiyah— will be the abode of the Christians. 7. Hutamah—the deepest level of Hell-fire. This is where the religious hypocrites will spend eternity. The worst of Allah's creation are the Munafiqin (hypocrites), whether they be of mankind or jinn, for they outwardly appear to accept, but inwardly reject Allah and His Messenger. A dweller of Hell is called a Jahannami. ...”​
     
  2. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    You're conflating commentary on the Quran with what the Quran actually says.
     
  3. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
    Luke 10:18
     
  4. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    You can't be serious..
    Read it again..
    Jesus Christ didn't say he saw Satan fall at that precise time..
    But looking into the distance future and seeing at that time when Satan will be cast out of heaven during the tribulation period.

    Many people believe that Satan has already been cast out of heaven to the earth..
    So where is Satan if he's been cast out of heaven to the earth..
    When Satan is finally cast out of heaven to the earth. Satan will be seen by everyone on earth..
    When Satan is cast out of heaven to the earth.. Satan will come down on top of the mount of Olives on the North side of Jerusalem and then go about masquerading by deception to deceive the whole world into believing that he is Jesus Christ..
    Satan is not cast out of heaven until the sounding of the 6th trumpet in the book of Revelation..
     
  5. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Argument from Silence
     
  6. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    A fallen angel remaining nameless in the scriptures which only refer to him as "satan" and also devil and morning star. But not by his original name as far as we know. The book of Enoch does name some of the fallen angels but is not included in the Bible.

    Currently he goes by many names. Uses Lucifer because it means light bearer and he claims to bring enlightenment.
     
  7. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    So why you do you think he's doing it for the wrong reasons?
     
  8. TheBannerofHomuraAkemi

    TheBannerofHomuraAkemi Active Member

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    I don't know if Charles would support your faith.

    In the story where the quote you use came from "The Generous Gambler" a man lose his soul to the devil in a game of chance, but the thing is the man doesn't care he finds the soul useless and boring. He ends up asking the priest who says the line that he should pray to God that the devil still give him all the worldly pleasures that he teased about. The main character didn't think the devil didn't exist. Instead he was rather pleased with his existence because he could uplift the boring Victorian style of life Charles lived in.
     
  9. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    It's an ancient feud began when satan became proud of himself and decided to make himself into a god and set up his own kingdom. He didn't stop with blasphemy however but continued to become worse. His motives are outlined in scripture and from people who have come in contact with him.

    Most of his reasons are based in pride which is his great original vice. For him it's all about himself and how great he is and how wrong God is to disagree. He really is delusional in that regard. As it is written "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked ..."
    Then the rest of his evil is based in anger/hatred/revenge and finally because he enjoys certain vices that he likes to indulge in.

    For him, bringing down humanity is a good idea because:
    1. it makes him look better. If he can get you to sin; then he doesn't look as bad for sinning himself.
    2. envy. If he can't win then he doesn't want anyone to win. he wants everyone to lose like he is.
    3. anger and hatred, revenge for how he thinks he has been wronged.
     
  10. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    That's a serious mistranslation.

    The heart is deceitful[עקב] above all things, and desperately wicked[אנש]: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    עקב reward
    אנש of people

    --> The heart rewards above all things, and is of the people: who can know it?

    Moreover by them is thy servant warned: [and] in keeping of them [there is] great reward[עקב].
    Psalms 19:12

    Which justify the wicked for reward[עקב], and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
    Isaiah 5:23

    And when he went out the second day, behold, two men[אנשים] of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow?
    Exodus 2:13

    And there fell of Benjamin eighteen thousand men; all these [were] men[אנש] of valour.
    Judges 20:44
     
  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Well ... that goes against mainstream translations. It's your word against theirs ... :shrug:

    YLT says crooked.

    Jeremiah 17:9 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    9 Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable -- who doth know it?


    This same Hebrew word is used in Isaiah 40:4 and again translated as crooked. "The crooked shall be made straight"

    And in Hosea 6:8 "polluted" with blood.
     
  12. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    You're thinking of a different word which is similar but ... different.

    Here is the word in Psalm 19
    H6118 - `eqeb - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)

    And here in Jeremiah 17
    H6121 - `aqob - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)
     
  13. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    No, I'm not. The vowels are a late addition, but the ב in עקב can have two different meanings, one positive, one negative.
    Genesis 1:31 implies a positive interpretation rather than a negative one.

    I'm sure about this.

    Teach me, YHWH, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it [unto] the end[עקב].
    Psalms 119:33

    Reward fits here as well, "the end" is an outlier.
     
    #93 Theo102, Feb 11, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
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  14. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    That is true; the vowels are a late addition. However, Genesis 1:31 was before the fall to sin; in Isaiah 55:7-9 we see the thoughts of the wicked are not good.

    As for satan ... his heart is certainly not good. Pride corrupts the heart and Satan is no exception. What is a lie we believe other than when we are proud and think we are greater than we really are? That is how deception began. The first lie was pride of heart. From his deceived heart all the other lies Satan devised came. So pride was original sin ... that's why I believe the heart is deceitful above all things.
     
  15. Ayjaydee

    Ayjaydee Active Member

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    I heard he was in the details
     
  16. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    The fall is doctrinal, it's not supported by verses that describe a remedy that is outside of the doctrine.

    Create in me a clean heart, O Elohim; and renew a right spirit within me.
    Psalm 51:10

    The title of Satan is ambiguous.

    And Elohim's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of YHWH stood in the way for an adversary[shetan/satan] against him.
    Numbers 22:22
     
  17. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Well I don't necessarily agree with everything people say about the fall. I can only speak for my own beliefs. For me the fall is simple and the result clear for all of us. You quoted the verse saying that God made all things good and that's very true. Then how come we die? Death is not good. We die because of sin. They didn't die before. The remedy is resurrection. That is life again from the dead. Resurrection has ever been the hope of Judaism and Christianity.

    Yes of course, we've covered that. But in the new Testament there is a specific "Satan" called "that old serpent" which is what I refer to. He doesn't have an actual recorded name in scripture and is just known by "satan" or sometimes "devil" and a few other epithets and/or titles.

    Even now he goes by many names.
     
  18. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    The Christian doctrine of resurrection doesn't validate prophetically, there's nothing like Christ in Hosea 6:2.

    And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    Luke 24:46

    After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
    Hosea 6:2

    OK, what I'm looking for is something that isn't ambiguous. The dragon of Revelation works for me, or Lucifer.
     
  19. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Faith can be misplaced, even faith that the devil does not exist.
     
  20. EtuMalku

    EtuMalku MERCURÆN LUCIFERIAN

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    Exactly where did you show me that? Your post not about Abraham was ALL about Abraham. My statement remains, it's an accepted fact among scholars, you proved nothing of the contrary.
     
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