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Where is Liberty and freedom? Will it someday become extinct?

godnotgod

Thou art That
This isn´t an issue where I need to use religion. or chose to use it in reference to the subject.

As a Christian, you have no choice but to interpret all man made law in terms of your religious indoctrination. It's just that you are not aware that you are doing it. Your hard wired Christian doctrine is what dictates how you see and judge all human activity. For you, there is no other way. It is not a matter of choice for you, though you may psych yourself out that it is. Bottom line is that your absolute Christian doctrine overrides all others. It is already in place even before you open your mouth.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I sir scoff at you, sniff at you, am waving my hand at you, and tell you you are not a theological authority, you are discredited regarding my motives, my beliefs and this discussion. You will be disregarded by me, on this issue until I choose to discuss my religious beliefs on the matter. Quite frankly until I tell you what they are and tell you why I believe that way, it is none of your damn business.

Did I hit a sore spot? If so, my apologies.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
As a Christian, you have no choice but to interpret all man made law in terms of your religious indoctrination. It's just that you are not aware that you are doing it. Your hard wired Christian doctrine is what dictates how you see and judge all human activity. For you, there is no other way. It is not a matter of choice for you, though you may psych yourself out that it is. Bottom line is that your absolute Christian doctrine overrides all others. It is already in place even before you open your mouth.
What utter pap. It is absolutely amazing to me that you actually think you have some ability or right to tell me what I must believe or how I must relate to the world. You aren't he pope and I am not a Catholic.

It is pathetic that a supporter of infanticide has to drag in religion and his prejudicial view of it to somehow try and impeach someone who has totally destroyed your tenuous argument that hangs to legality by a decision based upon the slight of hand of "now you see a person, now you don't".

You have to deal with your ignoring brutal killing, not I. You have to deal with the scissors through the brain of a baby that you smugly approve of, not I.

Don't tell me what I must believe, you know zilch about me. What you believe is apparent, and it is inhuman and inhumane. Live with it
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
....you actually think you have some ability or right to tell me what I must believe or how I must relate to the world.

Don't tell me what I must believe, you know zilch about me.

Well, thanks for enlightening me about Christian doctrine. I had no idea. So the Christian God said 'Verily, I say unto you....", but then He turned around and said: "These are My Words. However, for those who find them unacceptable, I do have several sets of Alternative Facts available which you may find more palatable. See me after class" How convenient. :p

"I have sinned against Thee, Oh Lord. I am a miserable wretch!"

"Why, that's quite alright, my child. We have here some nice Alternative Facts which will make everything all good again. Go and sin again, wink wink"


Excuse me, but your religious indoctrination is none other than attachment to a set of beliefs written by others. So you see all of human life in terms of your religious beliefs. I am not dictating to you WHAT to believe; only that you MUST believe as your religious doctrines dictate. You like to think you have a choice, but you do not. You believe what you believe because you must, as dictated to you via your conditioning. That is what beliefs are: conditioning. However, if you ever become interested in seeing things as they actually are, then you must do what you can to become unconditioned. Currently, your mental conditioning tells you that the issue at hand is the morality associated with abortion, when the reality is that the issue is about the violation of women's constitutional rights, which is what Roe vs. Wade makes clear.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Well, thanks for enlightening me about Christian doctrine. I had no idea. So the Christian God said 'Verily, I say unto you....", but then He turned around and said: "These are My Words. However, for those who find them unacceptable, I do have several sets of Alternative Facts available which you may find more palatable. See me after class" How convenient. :p

"I have sinned against Thee, Oh Lord. I am a miserable wretch!"

"Why, that's quite alright, my child. We have here some nice Alternative Facts which will make everything all good again. Go and sin again, wink wink"


Excuse me, but your religious indoctrination is none other than attachment to a set of beliefs written by others. So you see all of human life in terms of your religious beliefs. I am not dictating to you WHAT to believe; only that you MUST believe as your religious doctrines dictate. You like to think you have a choice, but you do not. You believe what you believe because you must, as dictated to you via your conditioning. That is what beliefs are: conditioning. However, if you ever become interested in seeing things as they actually are, then you must do what you can to become unconditioned. Currently, your mental conditioning tells you that the issue at hand is the morality associated with abortion, when the reality is that the issue is about the violation of women's constitutional rights, which is what Roe vs. Wade makes clear.
Rehash of stupid, errant, ignorant talking points based in pure BS. Your idea;s are weighed in the balance and are found to be utterly ridiculous. I know how things actually are, I, unlike you have actually seen the reality. Go away kid, your empty bleating is becoming annoying, you win the pointy cap. Now go sit in the corner and STFU
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I know how things actually are, I, unlike you have actually seen the reality.

Sure, of course you have. That is why you continue to see it through the delusional lens of your belief system, which says that your God is the One True God, all others be dammed.

Had you
"actually seen the reality", there would be no necessity to entertain the belief system called 'Christianity'. The problem here is that you mistake beliefs for reality. In fact, the Christian belief system is, for Christians, equivalent to Absolute Truth. For the Christian, all other belief systems are false teachings; theirs, and only theirs, is the One True Faith. This is to set delusive thinking into stone as representing a true view of reality, with an official stamp of approval from God. That makes God on their side, allowing them to punish non-Christians for their infidelity, in exactly the same manner as the Muslim persecutes the infidel, all in the name of their God. The Inquisition also had 'actually seen the reality', which gave them official sanction to persecute, torture, and murder the 'heretics' for over 400 years.

When those of your ilk seize power, what will you do to the abortionists in the name of your God?
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Sure, of course you have. That is why you continue to see it through the delusional lens of your belief system, which says that your God is the One True God, all others be dammed.

Had you
"actually seen the reality", there would be no necessity to entertain the belief system called 'Christianity'. The problem here is that you mistake beliefs for reality. In fact, the Christian belief system is, for Christians, equivalent to Absolute Truth. For the Christian, all other belief systems are false teachings; theirs, and only theirs, is the One True Faith. This is to set delusive thinking into stone as representing a true view of reality, with an official stamp of approval from God. That makes God on their side, allowing them to punish non-Christians for their infidelity, in exactly the same manner as the Muslim persecutes the infidel, all in the name of their God. The Inquisition also had 'actually seen the reality', which gave them official sanction to persecute, torture, and murder the 'heretics' for over 400 years. Well Sparky, You have expanded your hate filled religious diatribe about me and what I MUST believe, and what I am HARDWIRED to believe, about the killing of the unborn.

You have taken the opportunity to let your prejudice and hatred roam far afield from the subject, because your vile venom overflows your gullet.

Sparky, do you remember me telling you that you were making a fool of yourself because you were pontificating, you thought, with authority, knowledge and insight about me when you knew nothing of me ?

Sure enough, you proved yourself the fool.

Back to the subject. I became a Christian as an adult married and out of college. Before that time I was a raging atheist, although much more classy about it than you, Yet I believed abortion in the latter stages of pregnancy was wrong. How could that be ? I was free of those mean old religious restrictions, why not just embrace the killing, like you ?

Here is the answer Sparky, and why your analysis of me, as I told you, were empty blatherings

From childhood, I have had a strong interest in animals of all types. I kept snakes, and tarantula's , I raised and showed Cavies, and Rabbits and flew racing pigeons. I was a member of the Future Farmers of America, and goats were my project. I was originally an Agriculture major.

Unlike you, I saw with my very own eyes what still born animals looked like, ah, they were just like their parents. I saw what animals born as the result of a spontaneous abortion from trauma looked and acted like, like others of it's species born naturally. I dissected fetal pigs, guess what Sparky, they were pigs.

The obvious conclusion that anyone but a loon would come to is that they were exactly what they were or had been, living offspring of their parents, exactly like their parents had been at the same stage of development. They weren't its, or alien blobs. They were or had been living animals. I saw my own Son, born as a result of a serious illness of my wife, living and moving and trying his very best to survive, a person named Matthew, at the point of development where many thousands were being killed.

It wasn't hard for me to conclude that with people it was exactly the same, unborn humans at a certain point were people as well. Further, I have never been the type to duck and hide behind idiocy like you, pretending what I knew was, wasn't, because for political expedience someone told me it wasn't.

For one of my degree's I had extensive training in the law, criminal law. Which required me to understand common law, precedence, equal protection, and of course, the Constitution. Roe v. Wade was founded on shaky law, ignoring common law, precedence, denying equal protection, and creating a right not found in the Constitution. I feel the decision is tenuous, ignored the real issue. As do many lawyers and legal scholars.

AS AN ATHEIST, I found latter term abortion abhorrent and the fact that it became legal, in a roundabout way didn't change it. AS AN ATHEIST I believed the killing of the unborn was killing a living person.

Wen I became a Christian I did not have to adopt a new position on this issue, what I KNEW was confirmed, not created.

So Sparky, all of your cretinous nonsense about what Christianity MADE me believe, and how I MUST believe what I was MADE to believe is one huge cow flop totally manufactured in you fevered brain.

Your dumb pontifications about things you didn't know prove you the fool. Don't say I didn';t warn you, but you, and to a lesser extent a fellow traveler just had to continue chirping that only mean old Christianity prevented me from sharing your view that killing and maiming unborn people was just a wonderful thing.

Last but not least, when you speak about the Bible, you speak with the words of ignorance. Why don't you actually try and gain a little knowledge ?

Goodbye Sparky, as I said, you earned the fools cap, go sit in the corner , you don;'t know what you are talking about.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
AS AN ATHEIST, I found latter term abortion abhorrent and the fact that it became legal, in a roundabout way didn't change it. AS AN ATHEIST I believed the killing of the unborn was killing a living person.

When I became a Christian I did not have to adopt a new position on this issue, what I KNEW was confirmed, not created.

What you 'knew', or rather 'believed', to be 'true' as an atheist, is now 'confirmed' via Christianity which is the larger context for your belief. You see? You are treating your beliefs as something you 'know' to be the case. So yes, you did adopt a new position, one which not only galvanizes your secular view, but completely encompasses it. Except that Exodus says that abortion is not murder, and Roe vs. Wade says that abortion is not the issue; that the violation of women's constitutional rights is the issue.

You 'believed the killing of the unborn was killing a living person', but as has been pointed out to you from several sources, an unborn fetus is not yet a 'person', for several reasons already explained. You have yet to provide a legal definition of 'person' that is acceptable to you, since you rejected the one I provided from Black's Law, and yet want to push ahead with the idea that abortion is the murder of a 'person'.

Most of Western law and culture is based upon Judeao-Christian doctrine, and that would include your atheist views, so your argument that your atheist view preceded your Christian view is bunk.

*****

The following is excerpted from Roe vs. Wade:

A. The appellee and certain amici argue that the fetus is a "person" within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses,

[157]

for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment. The appellant conceded as much on reargument. [Footnote 51] On the other hand, the appellee conceded on reargument [Footnote 52] that no case could be cited that holds that a fetus is a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment.

The Constitution does not define "person" in so many words. Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment contains three references to "person." .... But in nearly all these instances, the use of the word is such that it has application only post-natally. None indicates, with any assurance, that it has any possible pre-natal application. [Footnote 54]

[158]

All this, together with our observation, supra, that, throughout the major portion of the 19th century, prevailing legal abortion practices were far freer than they are today, persuades us that the word "person," as used in the Fourteenth Amendment, does not include the unborn. [Footnote 55] This is in accord with the results reached in those few cases where the issue has been squarely presented....

[159]

...Texas urges that, apart from the Fourteenth Amendment, life begins at conception and is present throughout pregnancy, and that, therefore, the State has a compelling interest in protecting that life from and after conception. We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer.

[160]

It should be sufficient to note briefly the wide divergence of thinking on this most sensitive and difficult question. There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live' birth. This was the belief of the Stoics. [Footnote 56] It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith. [Footnote 57] It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family. [Footnote 58] As we have noted, the common law found greater significance in quickening. Physician and their scientific colleagues have regarded that event with less interest and have tended to focus either upon conception, upon live birth, or upon the interim point at which the fetus becomes "viable," that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. [Footnote 59] Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks. [Footnote 60] The Aristotelian theory of "mediate animation," that held sway throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance in Europe, continued to be official Roman Catholic dogma until the 19th century, despite opposition to this "ensoulment" theory from those in the Church who would recognize the existence of life from

[161]

the moment of conception. [Footnote 61] The latter is now, of course, the official belief of the Catholic Church. As one brief amicus discloses, this is a view strongly held by many non-Catholics as well, and by many physicians. Substantial problems for precise definition of this view are posed, however, by new embryological data that purport to indicate that conception is a "process" over time, rather than an event, and by new medical techniques such as menstrual extraction, the "morning-after" pill, implantation of embryos, artificial insemination, and even artificial wombs. [Footnote 62]

In areas other than criminal abortion, the law has been reluctant to endorse any theory that life, as we recognize it, begins before live birth, or to accord legal rights to the unborn except in narrowly defined situations and except when the rights are contingent upon live birth. For example, the traditional rule of tort law denied recovery for prenatal injuries even though the child was born alive. [Footnote 63] That rule has been changed in almost every jurisdiction. In most States, recovery is said to be permitted only if the fetus was viable, or at least quick, when the injuries were sustained, though few

[162]

courts have squarely so held. [Footnote 64] In a recent development, generally opposed by the commentators, some States permit the parents of a stillborn child to maintain an action for wrongful death because of prenatal injuries. [Footnote 65] Such an action, however, would appear to be one to vindicate the parents' interest and is thus consistent with the view that the fetus, at most, represents only the potentiality of life. Similarly, unborn children have been recognized as acquiring rights or interests by way of inheritance or other devolution of property, and have been represented by guardians ad litem. [Footnote 66] Perfection of the interests involved, again, has generally been contingent upon live birth. In short, the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense.

Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973)
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
What you 'knew', or rather 'believed', to be 'true' as an atheist, is now 'confirmed' via Christianity which is the larger context for your belief. You see? You are treating your beliefs as something you 'know' to be the case. So yes, you did adopt a new position, one which not only galvanizes your secular view, but completely encompasses it. Except that Exodus says that abortion is not murder, and Roe vs. Wade says that abortion is not the issue; that the violation of women's constitutional rights is the issue.

You 'believed the killing of the unborn was killing a living person', but as has been pointed out to you from several sources, an unborn fetus is not yet a 'person', for several reasons already explained. You have yet to provide a legal definition of 'person' that is acceptable to you, since you rejected the one I provided from Black's Law, and yet want to push ahead with the idea that abortion is the murder of a 'person'.

Most of Western law and culture is based upon Judeao-Christian doctrine, and that would include your atheist views, so your argument that your atheist view preceded your Christian view is bunk.

*****

The following is excerpted from Roe vs. Wade:

A. The appellee and certain amici argue that the fetus is a "person" within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses,

[157]

for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment. The appellant conceded as much on reargument. [Footnote 51] On the other hand, the appellee conceded on reargument [Footnote 52] that no case could be cited that holds that a fetus is a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment.

The Constitution does not define "person" in so many words. Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment contains three references to "person." .... But in nearly all these instances, the use of the word is such that it has application only post-natally. None indicates, with any assurance, that it has any possible pre-natal application. [Footnote 54]

[158]

All this, together with our observation, supra, that, throughout the major portion of the 19th century, prevailing legal abortion practices were far freer than they are today, persuades us that the word "person," as used in the Fourteenth Amendment, does not include the unborn. [Footnote 55] This is in accord with the results reached in those few cases where the issue has been squarely presented....

[159]

...Texas urges that, apart from the Fourteenth Amendment, life begins at conception and is present throughout pregnancy, and that, therefore, the State has a compelling interest in protecting that life from and after conception. We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer.

[160]

It should be sufficient to note briefly the wide divergence of thinking on this most sensitive and difficult question. There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live' birth. This was the belief of the Stoics. [Footnote 56] It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith. [Footnote 57] It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family. [Footnote 58] As we have noted, the common law found greater significance in quickening. Physician and their scientific colleagues have regarded that event with less interest and have tended to focus either upon conception, upon live birth, or upon the interim point at which the fetus becomes "viable," that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. [Footnote 59] Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks. [Footnote 60] The Aristotelian theory of "mediate animation," that held sway throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance in Europe, continued to be official Roman Catholic dogma until the 19th century, despite opposition to this "ensoulment" theory from those in the Church who would recognize the existence of life from

[161]

the moment of conception. [Footnote 61] The latter is now, of course, the official belief of the Catholic Church. As one brief amicus discloses, this is a view strongly held by many non-Catholics as well, and by many physicians. Substantial problems for precise definition of this view are posed, however, by new embryological data that purport to indicate that conception is a "process" over time, rather than an event, and by new medical techniques such as menstrual extraction, the "morning-after" pill, implantation of embryos, artificial insemination, and even artificial wombs. [Footnote 62]

In areas other than criminal abortion, the law has been reluctant to endorse any theory that life, as we recognize it, begins before live birth, or to accord legal rights to the unborn except in narrowly defined situations and except when the rights are contingent upon live birth. For example, the traditional rule of tort law denied recovery for prenatal injuries even though the child was born alive. [Footnote 63] That rule has been changed in almost every jurisdiction. In most States, recovery is said to be permitted only if the fetus was viable, or at least quick, when the injuries were sustained, though few

[162]

courts have squarely so held. [Footnote 64] In a recent development, generally opposed by the commentators, some States permit the parents of a stillborn child to maintain an action for wrongful death because of prenatal injuries. [Footnote 65] Such an action, however, would appear to be one to vindicate the parents' interest and is thus consistent with the view that the fetus, at most, represents only the potentiality of life. Similarly, unborn children have been recognized as acquiring rights or interests by way of inheritance or other devolution of property, and have been represented by guardians ad litem. [Footnote 66] Perfection of the interests involved, again, has generally been contingent upon live birth. In short, the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense.

Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973)
More baloney. Roe is legal baloney,

I know based upon observation. A pillar of science
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
What "observation"? Note that to be scientific, the observation has to be replicable.
You obviously haven't followed the conversation. Repeated observation over years proves that what was observed was replicated numerous times. I suggest you go back and read what was written. Anything that I observed could be replicated if I choose, I may be many things, but I an not wilfully cruel.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
You obviously haven't followed the conversation. Repeated observation over years proves that what was observed was replicated numerous times. I suggest you go back and read what was written. Anything that I observed could be replicated if I choose, I may be many things, but I an not wilfully cruel.
Uh-huh. So nothing scientific. Understood.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
More baloney. Roe is legal baloney,

I know based upon observation. A pillar of science

Right. Your vision is over and above 9 Supreme Court judges. I continue to present their rationale, which they discuss in detail, and you think you have the authority to dismiss all of it with 'Baloney!', and no rational and/or legal argument to counter. Your 'argument' is beginning to have the unmistakable stench of religious belief. "My God is the One True God! Everything else is Holey Baloney!, and that's my Final Absolute and Holy Answer!"

You read Roe vs. Wade, and then read into it your own version of the case, eg: "The privacy claim is just a ploy to make abortion legal". Either you don't know how to read, or your view takes precedence over all else, no matter what.

The problem with your argument at its root is that you are trying to use sensation to sway people to your side, while attempting to prop up Roe vs Wade as a ploy to justify abortion. You're just plain wrong.

What? You are now advertising and propping yourself up as a 'pillar of science'? My goodness! What other titles and credentials do you want to attach to yourself as a way of giving yourself credibility? Is your position that insecure that you now resort to advertisements?
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
Definitely in decline. In the USA it is going one small piece at a time.

Mussolini is reported to have said: 'If you pluck a chicken one feather at a time, no one will notice'. :eek:

If we don't shore up democracy and civll rights, we will have fascism to deal with, and I am afraid most Americans haven't a clue what they may be in for. They didn't when they elected Trump, and they won't when they wake up to find themselves in a fascist state.

We are the chicken that is being plucked, folks, and it ain't because of your convenient scapegoat you call 'the liberals'. We all are in for it.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Right. Your vision is over and above 9 Supreme Court judges. I continue to present their rationale, which they discuss in detail, and you think you have the authority to dismiss all of it with 'Baloney!', and no rational and/or legal argument to counter. Your 'argument' is beginning to have the unmistakable stench of religious belief. "My God is the One True God! Everything else is Holey Baloney!, and that's my Final Absolute and Holy Answer!"

You read Roe vs. Wade, and then read into it your own version of the case, eg: "The privacy claim is just a ploy to make abortion legal". Either you don't know how to read, or your view takes precedence over all else, no matter what.

The problem with your argument at its root is that you are trying to use sensation to sway people to your side, while attempting to prop up Roe vs Wade as a ploy to justify abortion. You're just plain wrong.

What? You are now advertising and propping yourself up as a 'pillar of science'? My goodness! What other titles and credentials do you want to attach to yourself as a way of giving yourself credibility? Is your position that insecure that you now resort to advertisements?
Not 9 justices, 7, you got that wrong. I asked you to read the Constitution, any and all amendments, and tell me where the right to privacy is, you didn't. The warren supremes extrapolated from a number of amendments, I have looked at them, and found no such right, have you ? o less than the Chief justice of the court said they didn't exist, have you read his dissent ? No.

You seem to think that the supremes are gods. I assume that when they ruled a number of times that slavery was OK, you agree they were right, till later supremes said they were wrong.

Many believe and believed those pro slavery decisions were wrong based upon the Constitution, you don't care about the Constitution, only the majority OPINION of the supremes. I can go through history and point out many opinions were wrong, you believe they were right.

Actually a later court found roe was wrong. Roe limited abortion in the second trimester and abolished it in the third, they were right according to you, right ? in 2001 it was expanded to slaughter at any time, this was right too, huh ?

You don't find it crazy, in the least that a person can go to jail for murder if they kill an unborn baby, but a physician can butcher hundreds, with no penalty.

You say the murderer killed a "potential person", what the hell is the doctor killing, pickles ?

Roe WILL be overturned, just like those pro slavery decisions were overturned. I will continue, along with many millions of others to see that this comes about, by every legal means, just as millions did when the supremes, with your agreement, said slavery was legal.

*** deleted***

I said I observed over years, I said observation was a foundation of science. That's it.

*** deleted ***
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
Not 9 justices, 7, you got that wrong.

9 judges; 2 dissenting

I asked you to read the Constitution, any and all amendments, and tell me where the right to privacy is, you didn't. The warren supremes extrapolated from a number of amendments, I have looked at them, and found no such right, have you ?

Depends on whether you are looking for the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. Since some aspects of the Constitution are not expressly clear about some ideas, the Constitution must be interpreted whenever a case, such as Roe vs. Wade, comes along to challenge the current laws. Privacy laws have evolved over time. That's how our system works.
*****

"The U. S. Constitution contains no express right to privacy. The Bill of Rights, however, reflects the concern of James Madison and other framers for protecting specific aspects of privacy, such as the privacy of beliefs (1st Amendment), privacy of the home against demands that it be used to house soldiers (3rd Amendment), privacy of the person and possessions as against unreasonable searches (4th Amendment), and the 5th Amendment's privilege against self-incrimination, which provides protection for the privacy of personal information. In addition, the Ninth Amendment states that the "enumeration of certain rights" in the Bill of Rights "shall not be construed to deny or disparage other rights retained by the people." The meaning of the Ninth Amendment is elusive, but some persons (including Justice Goldberg in his Griswold concurrence) have interpreted the Ninth Amendment as justification for broadly reading the Bill of Rights to protect privacy in ways not specifically provided in the first eight amendments.


The question of whether the Constitution protects privacy in ways not expressly provided in the Bill of Rights is controversial. Many originalists, including most famously Judge Robert Bork in his ill-fated Supreme Court confirmation hearings, have argued that no such general right of privacy exists. The Supreme Court, however, beginning as early as 1923 and continuing through its recent decisions, has broadly read the "liberty" guarantee of the Fourteenth Amendment to guarantee a fairly broad right of privacy that has come to encompass decisions about child rearing, procreation, marriage, and termination of medical treatment. Polls show most Americans support this broader reading of the Constitution."
*****

The most frequently quoted statement by a Supreme Court justice on the subject of privacy comes in Justice Brandeis's dissent in Olmstead v. U. S. (1928):

"The makers of our Constitution understood the need to secure conditions favorable to the pursuit of happiness, and the protections guaranteed by this are much broader in scope, and include the right to life and an inviolate personality -- the right to be left alone -- the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men. The principle underlying the Fourth and Fifth Amendments is protection against invasions of the sanctities of a man's home and privacies of life. This is a recognition of the significance of man's spiritual nature, his feelings, and his intellect."

The Right of Privacy: Is it Protected by the Constitution?

Heaven forbid that you and your ilk get their way, and we have Nazi snoops in our bedrooms. We know that types like yourself want to pry open these privacy rights so you can have full access to every citizen's activities and even our thoughts, 24/7, watching all our comings and goings, and keeping a database on every minutiae, no matter how small. And the excuse you always use is "What have you got to hide?" Nothing, but we don't have anything to show you, either, because it's none of your business!. The bottom line is that you want a certified 'Christian Nation' with its' Inquisitors and Snoops ostracizing all non-Christians and putting them under constant surveillance by your jack-booted Nazi Snoop Brigade Thugs to ferret out imaginary offenses for punishment. That makes you closer to God via contrast, cuz you're on the 'right side' of the Law. IOW, you want total control, and that's because, at its root, Christianity is not based on real knowledge, but insecure beliefs, and because Christians need a devil to beat up on to perpetuate the Hero Myth. Such screwed up nut jobs, Christians are!:p Yuk!
 
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David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A question then for you. If a woman wanted an abortion full term, where the baby must be partially born before it can be killed, would you then stab it in the brain as it's head emerges?

Any so called doctor who would do such a thing should be in prison.
 
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