Where did "life" get its drive to reproduce and keep going

[Valjean]

"Natural selection works the same way on fully-formed life"

Oh like my dad the artifical bovine insemenator. Makes total sense now. We replaced one telelogical for another telelogical. I suppose thats why theism tends to play an outsized role in this nonsense.

What is not accounted for in the theory natural selection is the theory natural selection. Is it objective or subjective?

Frankly, I'm not following at all. Can you explain your point?

 

[shunyadragon]

OK, how are you defining "accidental?"
Natural processes are not planned or intentional. They have no goals or purpose. Maybe "automatic" would be more to your liking?
Not following. Cell walls? Cell walls are in plants and perhaps Gram positive bacteria. Animal cells have no cell walls. So what's your point?

Accident or accidental ar words tied to anthropomorphic meaning and has negative connotations. Planned and intentional also have anthropomorphic connotations. None of these terms fit how Nature is natural.

From: accident - Google Search
An accident, also known as an unintentional act, is an undesirable, incidental, and an unplanned event that could have been prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.

Nature is fundamentally deterministic and the outcome of all cause and effect events are determined by the Laws of Nature. The pattern of the outcome of cause and effect events is fractal described by Chaos Theory. The only thing that may be described as random is the timing of the outcome of individual events.

Note: I am only dealing with the nature of our macro physical existence. The Quantum Mechanics micro-world requires more of a detailed response.

 

[David T]

Frankly, I'm not following at all. Can you explain your point?

The question is natural selection as stated scientifically, objective or subjective?

 

[Thief]

Viruses are not cells, theyhave no metabolism, they can't grow, they can't reproduce, they can't extract nutrients from the environment to sustain themselves. They are no different from computer viruses. Neither can replicate without utilizing the hardware and replication programming of either a computer or a cell.
Are computer viruses living?

you ran right over the point

the construction may be obvious
but what drives it …..is elusive

and do viruses live?
seems they do
chicken pox becomes shingles
the form (of Life) is persistent
and that would not be so if that chemistry was just something dead

 

[Thief]

and computer viruses?
some of them were designed to be elusive
invasive
reproductive
destructive

A I

 

[Thief]

it could well be
artificial man made life is on the brink of reality

not the robot that interacts with us

the computer virus might be that A I

it starts out small
then grows a self protective firewall

next thing you know.....it's in your checking account looking to move funds
for it's own self development plan

 

[We Never Know]

The first cells (and current single-cell organisms) aren’t conscious so don’t have any drives. Their replication processes will have initially happened due to random mutation and the ones which replicate effectively will inevitably be the ones which survive and thrive.

Subconscious drives to replicate (and related ones like to protect your young or seek a good mate) only come about in more complex organisms with the capability of that level of thought. The process is similar though, with those organisms which developed those tendencies being the ones which thrived, passing on those tendencies to their descendants.

Blind undriven replication?

 

[We Never Know]

Valjean explains it well. "Drive" is not a very scientifically useful idea in this context. Once you have an organism - or any structure - that can replicate, it will, given the right conditions.

However if, by "drive" to replicate you simply mean the ability to replicate, how this arose in organisms is the central mystery that research into abiogenesis hopes one day to resolve. At present we do not know. We have more little pieces of the jigsaw every day but the question cannot be answered by science today. It is one of the biggest and most interesting unresolved issues in science.

(One of the errors creationists sometimes make is to presume that science should provide an instant answer to every question, regardless of the quality of the answer. But science lives with unanswered questions all the time. If there were no unanswered questions, science would be a dead subject.)

Instead of drive... urge, impulse, need, initiative, push, impel, desire, instinct, compel, etc. Pick one or give your own.

 

[We Never Know]

Drive is a perception trick. You might as well ask where iron got the drive to run to magnetic fields.

Reproduction is an accidental trait that is, of course, useful for the survival of successivel generations.

It is really no big deal, nor all that significant.

Instead of drive... urge, impulse, need, initiative, push, impel, desire, instinct, compel, etc. Pick one or give your own.

 

[We Never Know]

OK reference, but still not comfortable with the anthropomorphic use of 'drive.'

Instead of drive... urge, impulse, need, initiative, push, impel, desire, instinct, compel, etc. Pick one or give your own.

 

[We Never Know]

you ran right over the point

the construction may be obvious
but what drives it …..is elusive

and do viruses live?
seems they do
chicken pox becomes shingles
the form (of Life) is persistent
and that would not be so if that chemistry was just something dead

A virus is not really considered life. However some disagree. But it needs other life to replicate.

 

[We Never Know]

Interesting replies. IMO we don't know and may or not ever know but that doesn't mean we can't throw out idea's or mean god did it.

Most species naturally mate to reproduce. IMO humans mate more for pleasure than for reproduction. Humans have excelled past and changed the reason of what most other species do for survival.

We are still apes yet we've have evolved so far past any ape, none are really even in the same ball park we are.

Comparing any other two in a species/line, nothing even comes close. Some think we're special, other not so much. Either way we have evolved past any other species on the planet for being one of the youngest species on the planet.

 

[Valjean]

Accident or accidental ar words tied to anthropomorphic meaning and has negative connotations. Planned and intentional also have anthropomorphic connotations. None of these terms fit how Nature is natural.

From: accident - Google Search
An accident, also known as an unintentional act, is an undesirable, incidental, and an unplanned event that could have been prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.

Nature is fundamentally deterministic and the outcome of all cause and effect events are determined by the Laws of Nature. The pattern of the outcome of cause and effect events is fractal described by Chaos Theory. The only thing that may be described as random is the timing of the outcome of individual events.

Note: I am only dealing with the nature of our macro physical existence. The Quantum Mechanics micro-world requires more of a detailed response.

I think we're in agreement here, except for the obligate 'anthropomorphism' (?) of "accidental." The face on Mars is accidental, hitting a deer with your car or a tree falling on your house is accidental. I use accidental to mean not engineered.

 

[Valjean]

The question is natural selection as stated scientifically, objective or subjective?

Still not following.
Objective and subjective aren't terms I'd normally associate with natural selection. Natural selection's a process; an automatic, unguided, selective process.

 

[We Never Know]

Accident or accidental ar words tied to anthropomorphic meaning and has negative connotations. Planned and intentional also have anthropomorphic connotations. None of these terms fit how Nature is natural.

From: accident - Google Search
An accident, also known as an unintentional act, is an undesirable, incidental, and an unplanned event that could have been prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.

Nature is fundamentally deterministic and the outcome of all cause and effect events are determined by the Laws of Nature. The pattern of the outcome of cause and effect events is fractal described by Chaos Theory. The only thing that may be described as random is the timing of the outcome of individual events.

Note: I am only dealing with the nature of our macro physical existence. The Quantum Mechanics micro-world requires more of a detailed response.

So if you're hiking in the woods and you accidently trip over a tree root and fall...and in that same instant a hunter mistakenly shot at you thinking you were a deer(for example) and the shot only missed you because you accidently tripped and fell...... How is the accident of you tripping and falling a negative?

 

[Valjean]

you ran right over the point

the construction may be obvious
but what drives it …..is elusive

and do viruses live?
seems they do
chicken pox becomes shingles
the form (of Life) is persistent
and that would not be so if that chemistry was just something dead

What drives it is natural selection, no?
What do viruses do that machines or computer programs can't do? I have a house fan that turns on automatically at noon. There's a generator in my hospital that turns on in a power failure. Neither is alive. A retrovirus existing as a sequence of your DNA is not a living thing just because it programs for something under certain circumstances.

it could well be
artificial man made life is on the brink of reality

not the robot that interacts with us

the computer virus might be that A I

it starts out small
then grows a self protective firewall

next thing you know.....it's in your checking account looking to move funds
for it's own self development plan

Yikes!
<< hides cash under mattress >>

 

[We Never Know]

What do viruses do that machines or computer programs can't do? I have a house fan that turns on automatically at noon. There's a generator in my hospital that turns on in a power failure. Neither is alive. A retrovirus existing as a sequence of your DNA is not a living thing just because it programs for something under certain circumstances.
Yikes!

Replicate through their host.

 

[Valjean]

So if you're hiking in the woods and you accidently trip over a tree root and fall...and in that same instant a hunter mistakenly shot at you thinking you were a deer(for example) and the shot only missed you because you accidently tripped and fell...... How is the accident of you tripping and falling a negative?

I'm not sure "Negative" really applies. It's a lucky coincidence; an accident.

 

[We Never Know]

What do viruses do that machines or computer programs can't do? I have a house fan that turns on automatically at noon. There's a generator in my hospital that turns on in a power failure. Neither is alive. A retrovirus existing as a sequence of your DNA is not a living thing just because it programs for something under certain circumstances.
Yikes!
<< hides cash under mattress >>

Agreed DNA is not a living thing. Neither are minerals, vitamins, oxygen, etc. Yet we need all to be alive.
What actually through those and many other things brings life forth, makes life happen? I don't know, do you.

 

[We Never Know]

I'm not sure "Negative" really applies. It's a lucky coincidence; an accident.

He implied an accident is a negative. In my post the accident turned out to be a positive, or lucky, or etc. It sure wasn't a negative.