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Where did "life" get its drive to reproduce and keep going

Discussion in 'The Living World' started by We Never Know, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Where did life, the first cells get the drive to replicate and keep going?
    IMO if it hadn't existed before, how did the "drive to survive" come about in only cells?

    I'm just curious of what answers will come forth besides god did it.
     
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  2. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Drive, in the intentional sense, is not always necessary. Many atoms and molecules, like crystals or membranes, will self assemble and self replicate. That is to say, the components of life can assemble by ordinary chemistry. and, once you have self reproducing structures, those that are most robust and chemically active will proliferate by natural selection.

    Natural selection works the same way on fully-formed life, like archaeans or bacteria. Those assemblages that replicate most frequently or successfully will naturally become more numerous than their slower, more leisurely relatives. Again, no intention or will involved.

    For complex life, like lizards, humans or tulips, same thing. Those with less "drive;" those that reproduce less successfully, are weeded out automatically by natural selection. Of course, there are many factors involved. The most energetic or "driven" may be eliminated by an inability to obtain the amount of food/energy needed to sustain their own metabolic vigor/over-drive?
     
    #2 Valjean, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
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  3. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    The first cells (and current single-cell organisms) aren’t conscious so don’t have any drives. Their replication processes will have initially happened due to random mutation and the ones which replicate effectively will inevitably be the ones which survive and thrive.

    Subconscious drives to replicate (and related ones like to protect your young or seek a good mate) only come about in more complex organisms with the capability of that level of thought. The process is similar though, with those organisms which developed those tendencies being the ones which thrived, passing on those tendencies to their descendants.
     
  4. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Valjean explains it well. "Drive" is not a very scientifically useful idea in this context. Once you have an organism - or any structure - that can replicate, it will, given the right conditions.

    However if, by "drive" to replicate you simply mean the ability to replicate, how this arose in organisms is the central mystery that research into abiogenesis hopes one day to resolve. At present we do not know. We have more little pieces of the jigsaw every day but the question cannot be answered by science today. It is one of the biggest and most interesting unresolved issues in science.

    (One of the errors creationists sometimes make is to presume that science should provide an instant answer to every question, regardless of the quality of the answer. But science lives with unanswered questions all the time. If there were no unanswered questions, science would be a dead subject.)
     
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  5. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    The drive for cells to replicate is connected to some basic physical chemistry connected to water, organics and entropy.

    If we mixed water and oil together, and stirred vigorously, we will form an emulsion. If we stop the agitator and let this emulsion set, it will reverse itself and reform the original two layers; water and oil. You can do this with Italian salad dressing; olive oil and vinegar.

    The spontaneous movement of the emulsion, back into two layers, turns the disorder of the emulsion, into the order of two layers. Water is critical to life for many reasons. One very important reason being the water and oil affect, where water forces organics to segregate and cluster into order; organelles.

    When water forces the organics into ordered structures; phase separation, the cellular structures are induced into states of lowered entropy. The second law says that entropy of the universe has to increase. However, the water and oil affect lowers entropy of the organics to create order. Cells are full of repeatable organic order immersed in water.

    The net result is the cellular organic structures contain entropy potential. They have a potential or need to increase entropy, but water does not allow it. Waters needs the two layers. This entropy potential is expressed via secondary affects, that allows the system entropy to increase in other ways, such as metabolism and replication.

    The main problem they have been having in the science of Abiogenesis is connected to the bias of the organic centric traditions that under utilize the unique properties of water in favor of random. They do not make enough use of water, to push the organics into the order needed to generate sufficient entropy potential, so the basics of life can begin. They still assume any solvent can create life, which is based on a naive random assumption. In reality, no other solvent can push the organics into lowered entropy structures, as well as water.
     
  6. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Readers, "entropy potential" is not a scientific concept.

    Water and oil emulsions tend to separate as a simple result of lowering their enthalpy, by reducing the surface area, since molecules exposed at the surface are in a higher energy state than those within the body of the liquid. There is always a trade-off between the effects of entropy and enthalpy in chemical processes. (As any other chemists here may recall, ΔG = ΔH - TΔS.)

    Wellwisher has had bees in his bonnet about water, entropy, hydrogen bonding and liberals (spot the odd one out) for years, on a number of forums I have participated in. :rolleyes:
     
    #6 exchemist, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
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  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I do not believe this reflects an accurate view of the scientific approach to abiogenesis. First, as far the solvent(?). a better word is the medium, which has always been water, and the questions have been the chemistry of the water involved. Second, water does not 'push the organics into the order needed to generate sufficient entropy potential (misleading use of entropy).' The source of the energy is the internal heat of the earth and solar energy.. Third, a word of caution I see in a number of posts is the misuse of the word and concept of random or randomness. Random only refers to the randomness of the outcome of a single event, and not the overall natural process. The pattern of the occurrence of the over all series of cause and effect is fractal not random. The outcome of the cause and effect events are the Laws of Nature and the chemical properties of the elements, molecules and water.
     
  8. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    MInimization of Gibbs Free Energy provides the drive.
    Free Energy and the Meaning of Life - Cosmic Variance : Cosmic Variance
     
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  9. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Drive is a perception trick. You might as well ask where iron got the drive to run to magnetic fields.

    Reproduction is an accidental trait that is, of course, useful for the survival of successivel generations.

    It is really no big deal, nor all that significant.
     
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  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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  11. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    OK, but uncomfortable with the anthropomorphic use of 'accidental.' Natural processes are not 'accidental.'
     
  12. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I don't necessarily disagree, but would you be willing to give me some examples or illustration?
     
  13. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    there's more to life than replication

    and cell life is advanced compared to strands of molecules
    some forms of life have no cell wall
    but they do react to environment
    and do reproduce to a form

    but some people say viruses are not life or living

    I find that hard to believe
    especially when infection sets in
     
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  14. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    Entropy potential is an engineering concept, that I developed, based on lab observations and easy to run experiments you can do at home.

    For example, osmosis is colligative property. A colligative property is a property that is only dependent on the concentration of solute, but it is not dependent on the chemical character of the solute.

    In other words, in osmosis, negative or positive ions, with one or more charges, as well as neutral molecules, will all generate the same osmotic pressure, as long as the concentration is the same. Since charge does not matter or have any impact, osmotic pressure is not driven by the EM force. Instead, it is driven by entropy.

    That being said, I can generate an entropy based potential; entropy potential, to suit my needs, by simply adjusting the concentration on one side of an osmotic device. There will be a time delay, but the water will accommodate my needs and generate a final entropy pressure=force/area, that I can calculate and predict, even before I get started. I call this entropy based force, the entropic force, since it is created by entropy. This is also a term, I invented, that is very descriptive of what is occurring. It is a fifth force of nature, used by life.

    There are also other ways to set up a predictable and directed entropy potential. This is based on knowing that a system will seek a certain level of entropy, to meet the needs of an equilibrium environment. I can locally reduce this entropy, and it will express a fixed potential, as it restores equilibrium. Water and Oil works this way but with a twist, due some unique properties of water.

    Water forms hydrogen bonds, while hydrogen bonds have both polar and covalent bonding character. The hydrogen bonds of water, act like a binary switch, which can go either way, based on the conditions. This shows up as low and high density domaines in in water. The polar side of the switch is denser and has higher entropy, while the covalent side of the switch is less dense and has lower entropy.

    When we have an emulation of water and oil there is a lot of surface tension in the water. Tension means stretching, which is implicit of the covalent side of the water switch; less dense. This stretch hydrogen bond defines lowered entropy. The phase separation, back into two layers; oil and water, by lowering surface tension f the water, is flipping the switch to polar. This increases the entropy of the water; second law, on top of the enthalpy change. This extra drive allows water to man handle and set an entropy potential within the organics. Now there is potential to increase entropy. Enzymes only work in water since due to the binary switch affect unique to hydrogen bonding plus the four hydrogen bonds of water. Ammonia cannot form as many hydrogen bond with itself so the affect is much less.

    The water and oil affect in cells lowers the free energy of the water via both entropy increase and enthalpy decrease. The organic; oil, lower enthalpy, but also lowers entropy. The result is a global entropy potential on the surface of all the organic structures. This is the basis for life.
     
  15. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    I liked the link.

    This reminds me of Jeremy England's idea, some years ago, that life is, thermodynamically speaking, an engine for increasing the entropy of the earth (I think it was?) more quickly than would be achieved by purely inorganic processes. I was mildly surprised that the article did not reference England's ideas.
     
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  16. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Wellwisher my dear fellow, after all these years I know better than to get involved in a debate with you about your ideas. I just wanted to raise a red flag for other readers. ;)
     
  17. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Evolution is very smart. It added many extra things. Likableness in males and females, the mane or colored feathers, various sounds to call or address a prospective mate, mating dances, emotional expressions, Testosterone, Estrogen and Progesterone, maternal and paternal instincts. Nature compells us and we follow its rules even without realizing that they exist.
     
    #17 Aupmanyav, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  18. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    "Natural selection works the same way on fully-formed life"

    Oh like my dad the artifical bovine insemenator. Makes total sense now. We replaced one telelogical for another telelogical. I suppose thats why theism tends to play an outsized role in this nonsense.

    What is not accounted for in the theory natural selection is the theory natural selection. Is it objective or subjective?
     
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  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Well, here's my answer: I don't know.

    However, there's something called "replicating molecules", namely molecules that tend to divide into equal parts. Does this explain how reproduction started? I haven't a clue.
     
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  20. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    OK, how are you defining "accidental?"
    Natural processes are not planned or intentional. They have no goals or purpose. Maybe "automatic" would be more to your liking?
    Not following. Cell walls? Cell walls are in plants and perhaps Gram positive bacteria. Animal cells have no cell walls. So what's your point?
    Viruses are not cells, theyhave no metabolism, they can't grow, they can't reproduce, they can't extract nutrients from the environment to sustain themselves. They are no different from computer viruses. Neither can replicate without utilizing the hardware and replication programming of either a computer or a cell.
    Are computer viruses living?
     
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