When it changed from LAW to GRACE ?

[dan p]

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,

The Paraclete comes by grace not by any law.

Hi , and what I feel that I need to clarify is this :

#1 , Grace and truth came by Christ .

#2 , Later , Christ revealed through the Apostle Paul , the Dispensation of the Gace of God , that was Hidden before rhe worlds were created , Eph 1:4 and 2 Tim 1:9 ,

#3 , These 2 are different , and the Comforter , today lives and seals up to the day of salvation in Eph 1:13 which the Jews did not experience , did they ??

dan p

 

[Robert007]

Dan wrote:
Why another Apostle since there were already 12 , and that is because 12 apostles were to seat on 12 thrones judging Israel .

Saul is the FIRST/PROTOS saved by Grace and and no one will ever can DISPUTE IT ,

You are wrong on several counts. The first case being that Judas Iscariot was replaced by Mattias. As for a more general misconception, the true Grace of God does not depend on believing the false gospel of the false prophet Paul. As for Paul being saved, his only instance of being saved was accomplished by two cohorts of Roman soldiers. As Yeshua said in Matthew 23, whereas he addresses those Pharisees who kill his prophets and wise men, and that the guilt of righteous blood shall fall on them. Paul, the Pharisee, went from city to city persecuting Yeshua's followers, and having them killed.
Paul had a place in prophecy, for his words were the seed of tares which were thrown in with the good seed, and the devil was his father. Although the tares were not to be ripped out until the end of time, less the wheat be damaged, know that that restraint is no longer in place.
Although a naked man may be deluded into thinking he is clothed, those around him will take notice of his misconception.

 

[waitasec]

When it changed from LAW to GRACE ?

when non jewish grown men said..."keep that sharp rock away from my...."

 

[dan p]

Dan wrote:
Why another Apostle since there were already 12 , and that is because 12 apostles were to seat on 12 thrones judging Israel .

Saul is the FIRST/PROTOS saved by Grace and and no one will ever can DISPUTE IT ,

You are wrong on several counts. The first case being that Judas Iscariot was replaced by Mattias. As for a more general misconception, the true Grace of God does not depend on believing the false gospel of the false prophet Paul. As for Paul being saved, his only instance of being saved was accomplished by two cohorts of Roman soldiers. As Yeshua said in Matthew 23, whereas he addresses those Pharisees who kill his prophets and wise men, and that the guilt of righteous blood shall fall on them. Paul, the Pharisee, went from city to city persecuting Yeshua's followers, and having them killed.
Paul had a place in prophecy, for his words were the seed of tares which were thrown in with the good seed, and the devil was his father. Although the tares were not to be ripped out until the end of time, less the wheat be damaged, know that that restraint is no longer in place.
Although a naked man may be deluded into thinking he is clothed, those around him will take notice of his misconception.

Hi , and the Tares and the Wheat parasble , by Context is spoken to Israel and Paul is not in view !!

Paul , in his espiles never talks abount wheat and tares !!

dan p

 

[obi one]

Hi , and the Tares and the Wheat parasble , by Context is spoken to Israel and Paul is not in view !!

Paul , in his espiles never talks abount wheat and tares !!

dan p

Paul never taught the gospel of the kingdom of heaven. Paul's gospel of grace had nothing to do with Yeshua's gospel of the kingdom, and was in direct opposition to Yeshua's gospel. The wheat and the tares parable was about the kingdom of heaven, which applies to all men, past, present, and future. Paul was represented by the tares, and Yeshua told his disciples to leave the tares alone, less the wheat be damaged. The limiting factor being the "end of the age".

 

[Muffled]

I'd say that it was always "grace", but the Law is made for the benefit of those to whom it is given, so it is required for them.

Also, Jesus, being Jewish, required Law.

I agree. The law came by grace. However the law would not have been necessary if people would have been willing to receive The Holy Spirit. As it were, they were not even willing to hear God speak to them and even rejected the prophets.

Jesus does not require law, He fulfills it.

 

[Muffled]

Hi . and I have never seen a verse where Jesus promotes Grace over Law , and where is that verse ??

When looking in Stong's concordance , Paul is the only one who defines Grace and its usage , dan p

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

There is no requirement for this gift. It is freely give and that is the meaning of grace.

That is due to the fact that Paul likes systematic theology not becasue he is saying something different. Jesus is less systematic and more thematic.

 

[Shermana]

Jesus does not require law, He fulfills it.

And every Jew was expected to "fulfill" the Law.

For the common canard that "Fulfill" means to "do away with", simply look at how Paul exorts his believers to "Fulfill the Law of Christ". You don't want to say that Paul was telling them to "do away" with the Law of Christ, right? Therefore, Jesus "Fulfilling the Law", means simply obeying it and having the prophecies come to fruition. He specifically said "I did not come to abolish the Law" but this hasn't stopped Antinomians from flat out saying "Jesus abolished the Law". Even Paul says in Romans 3:31 that faith does not make the Law void, but rather they uphold the Law.

 

[miss interpret]

I think you could argue Grace was the original concept as God saw the tribes under Moses all the way to the mountain without a single death and yet the people complained to and about God all the way there, despite their complaining God kept providing, safety, water even food, until the people said to God that they could do what God wanted by their own ability and Moses was given the ten commandments to show the people the standards God expected.

 

[obi one]

I think you could argue Grace was the original concept as God saw the tribes under Moses all the way to the mountain without a single death and yet the people complained to and about God all the way there, despite their complaining God kept providing, safety, water even food, until the people said to God that they could do what God wanted by their own ability and Moses was given the ten commandments to show the people the standards God expected.

You can argue that pigs can fly, but I don't think you will be able to mount much of an arguement unless you twist the concept into one of Miss Piggy buying an American Airline ticket and boarding a flight to Dallas, Texas.

Since we are talking about the concept of the gospel of Grace, it might be a start if you would define your concept of Grace, and how it ties in with a gospel, and what is being "Saved" means. Testimony tied to Yeshua and the Law and the prophets would be helpful. And how does this "gospel of Grace" tie in the the Kingdom of God, which is the gospel which is to be spread to the whole world before the end of the age?

 

[idav]

Saul is the FIRST/PROTOS saved by Grace and and no one will ever can DISPUTE IT , dan p

Abraham was the first.

 

[miss interpret]

You can argue that pigs can fly, but I don't think you will be able to mount much of an arguement unless you twist the concept into one of Miss Piggy buying an American Airline ticket and boarding a flight to Dallas, Texas.

Since we are talking about the concept of the gospel of Grace, it might be a start if you would define your concept of Grace, and how it ties in with a gospel, and what is being "Saved" means. Testimony tied to Yeshua and the Law and the prophets would be helpful. And how does this "gospel of Grace" tie in the the Kingdom of God, which is the gospel which is to be spread to the whole world before the end of the age?

If we go on the idea of law and everyone who fails to keep it would be smited then when Moses took the tribes out of egypt they all should have been smited pretty much straight away as at the first hurdle they complained against Moses and God, the sea was parted all went well, second hurdle bitter waters all complained God provided, third complaint no food all complained God provided, then at the base of the mountain the arrogance of man to say God can ask of us what he wants and we can do it, self righteousness, then we get the ten commandments the law, since then through the sacrifice of Jesus we are back to Grace or the undeserved favour of God.so Grace the original rule, law what man asked for, Grace through the sacrifice of Jesus restoration of the original grace.Hows that not a flying pig in sight.

 

[obi one]

If we go on the idea of law and everyone who fails to keep it would be smited then when Moses took the tribes out of egypt they all should have been smited pretty much straight away as at the first hurdle they complained against Moses and God, the sea was parted all went well, second hurdle bitter waters all complained God provided, third complaint no food all complained God provided, then at the base of the mountain the arrogance of man to say God can ask of us what he wants and we can do it, self righteousness, then we get the ten commandments the law, since then through the sacrifice of Jesus we are back to Grace or the undeserved favour of God.so Grace the original rule, law what man asked for, Grace through the sacrifice of Jesus restoration of the original grace.Hows that not a flying pig in sight.

Your are a bit hard to follow. It would be helpful if you referenced your declarations. Those that failed to keep the Law were not smitten, they died, and they were judged, and the judgements were in the Law.(James 1:15) If you stole a loaf of bread, then the maximum punishment was 7 loafs of bread. As for complaints, the jews are not alone in being complainers. "Christians" spend half of their lifes complaining and praying for their betterment. And you still haven't explained your concept of "Grace".

 

[Shermana]

If we go on the idea of law and everyone who fails to keep it would be smited then when Moses took the tribes out of egypt they all should have been smited pretty much straight away as at the first hurdle they complained against Moses and God, the sea was parted all went well, second hurdle bitter waters all complained God provided, third complaint no food all complained God provided, then at the base of the mountain the arrogance of man to say God can ask of us what he wants and we can do it, self righteousness, then we get the ten commandments the law, since then through the sacrifice of Jesus we are back to Grace or the undeserved favour of God.so Grace the original rule, law what man asked for, Grace through the sacrifice of Jesus restoration of the original grace.Hows that not a flying pig in sight.

Do you believe that Christians are not required to obey any of the commandments to be saved? Most who believe this have not actually read Paul's epistles or 1 John for that matter. The "Self righteous" argument is generally taken by those who think they can do whatever they want without consequence. Hebrews 10:26 soundly shoots that down. 1 John 3:4-10 says that "Sin is Lawlessness". Jesus says "Away from me ye doers of Lawlessness", and "Lawless" was intended to mean "Those who disobey/disregard Mosaic Law".

The concept of "Grace" is highly misunderstood to say the least. It is not a replacement for the Mosaic Law. If you think it is, then kindly explain what code of behavior a Christian is required to follow to get into heaven, or kindly admit that you believe Christians can commit terrible crimes with impunity.

 

[miss interpret]

Do you believe that Christians are not required to obey any of the commandments to be saved? Most who believe this have not actually read Paul's epistles or 1 John for that matter. The "Self righteous" argument is generally taken by those who think they can do whatever they want without consequence. Hebrews 10:26 soundly shoots that down. 1 John 3:4-10 says that "Sin is Lawlessness". Jesus says "Away from me ye doers of Lawlessness", and "Lawless" was intended to mean "Those who disobey/disregard Mosaic Law".

The concept of "Grace" is highly misunderstood to say the least. It is not a replacement for the Mosaic Law. If you think it is, then kindly explain what code of behavior a Christian is required to follow to get into heaven, or kindly admit that you believe Christians can commit terrible crimes with impunity.

actually Grace is misunderstood especially by those who do not believe the blood of Christ attones for all their sins and still rely on their good works or self righteousness.the law is called the ministry of death, Jesus brought the ten commandments down to two and he fullfilled the needed sacrifice once and for all, Grace is a free gift and the gift of righteousness or right standing with God comes with accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, when God looks at the believer he deals with us according to the high priest as he always has and the believers high priest is Jesus.

 

[Shermana]

actually Grace is misunderstood especially by those who do not believe the blood of Christ attones for all their sins and still rely on their good works or self righteousness.the law is called the ministry of death, Jesus brought the ten commandments down to two and he fullfilled the needed sacrifice once and for all, Grace is a free gift and the gift of righteousness or right standing with God comes with accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, when God looks at the believer he deals with us according to the high priest as he always has and the believers high priest is Jesus.

So you believe then that self-claimed "Christians" are allowed to break the commandments whenever and however they please and that there is no reason to abstain from sin and to do good works? Does it affect their salvation? The idea that "Jesus brought the 10 commandments down to 2" is very common yet very wrong. He said all of the commandments HANG on those 2, which means all the commandments are BASED on those 2. Do you think this now means you no longer have to obey the 10 commandments even? Do you think you can commit adultery with impunity? If not, why not? What is the penalty? Where does Jesus even say you don't have to steal? Judging by the way you completely dodged the questions, I assume you agree with the statement that you believe Christians aren't required to have any actual code of behavior and they thus have a license to sin and are freely forgiven for whatever they do with the simple idea that they will be forgiven for it? Or do you contest this?

James would directly disagree that good works are not required to be saved, neither would Jesus, who directly said "Work hard to enter the Kingdom", neither would 1 John. Have you read 1 John by chance?

As for the Law being called the "Ministry of Death", what do you think that means even? Why does Jesus say that he will reject the "Doers of Lawlessness"? Why does 1 John 3:4 say that "Sin is Lawlessness"? Do you not believe that Jesus required a minimum of good behavior? If so, what is the definition of such good behavior? What are some examples? What happens if one breaks them? Do people not have any reason to do good if they claim to be Christian?

 

[miss interpret]

So you believe then that self-claimed "Christians" are allowed to break the commandments whenever and however they please and that there is no reason to abstain from sin and to do good works? Does it affect their salvation? The idea that "Jesus brought the 10 commandments down to 2" is very common yet very wrong. He said all of the commandments HANG on those 2, which means all the commandments are BASED on those 2. Do you think this now means you no longer have to obey the 10 commandments even? Do you think you can commit adultery with impunity? If not, why not? What is the penalty? Where does Jesus even say you don't have to steal? Judging by the way you completely dodged the questions, I assume you agree with the statement that you believe Christians aren't required to have any actual code of behavior and they thus have a license to sin and are freely forgiven for whatever they do with the simple idea that they will be forgiven for it? Or do you contest this?

James would directly disagree that good works are not required to be saved, neither would Jesus, who directly said "Work hard to enter the Kingdom", neither would 1 John. Have you read 1 John by chance?

As for the Law being called the "Ministry of Death", what do you think that means even? Why does Jesus say that he will reject the "Doers of Lawlessness"? Why does 1 John 3:4 say that "Sin is Lawlessness"? Do you not believe that Jesus required a minimum of good behavior? If so, what is the definition of such good behavior? What are some examples? What happens if one breaks them? Do people not have any reason to do good if they claim to be Christian?

we will do the commandments as Jesus said when he reduced it to two but we do it out of love not as a requirement of salvation, instead of all the sacrifices of the ot we have a one final absolute sacrifice that was Jesus to take away the fact that the law leads to sin and death.can I ask you do you think David will be in heaven?

 

[idav]

Do you believe that Christians are not required to obey any of the commandments to be saved? Most who believe this have not actually read Paul's epistles or 1 John for that matter. The "Self righteous" argument is generally taken by those who think they can do whatever they want without consequence. Hebrews 10:26 soundly shoots that down. 1 John 3:4-10 says that "Sin is Lawlessness". Jesus says "Away from me ye doers of Lawlessness", and "Lawless" was intended to mean "Those who disobey/disregard Mosaic Law".

The concept of "Grace" is highly misunderstood to say the least. It is not a replacement for the Mosaic Law. If you think it is, then kindly explain what code of behavior a Christian is required to follow to get into heaven, or kindly admit that you believe Christians can commit terrible crimes with impunity.

God is the ultimate judge. God is the one handing out grace to sinners. Whether someone is saved is between the individual and God. We know that everyone sins therefore sinners will end up going to heaven but the terms certainly aren't up to us.

 

[Shermana]

we will do the commandments as Jesus said when he reduced it to two but we do it out of love not as a requirement of salvation, instead of all the sacrifices of the ot we have a one final absolute sacrifice that was Jesus to take away the fact that the law leads to sin and death.can I ask you do you think David will be in heaven?

But he didn't reduce it two, he said "They HANG on these two", otherwise, you're still obeying commandments, they weren't "reduced". Do you still refrain from adultery? That's a commandment, it's not reduced, it just "hangs" on love of G_d and neighbor. Do you believe you can eat food sacrificed to idols and drink blood? If not, then those are still commandments, they aren't reduced to 2.. If I said don't go 90 mph and don't drive on the sidewalk both "hang" on the commandment to "be a good driver", that's the same concept. What did Jesus say to the Rich man when he asked him how to enter into life?

So my question is, as you dodged, what is the actual punishment and penalty for someone who disobeys any of these commandments which Jesus says "Hangs" on the Law? Do you believe a Christian is free to commit whatever sin he wants without fear of any penalty under the belief he's automatically forgiven for it or not? Again I refer you to Hebrews 10:26 and 1 John 3:4 for the definition of sin.

As for your question I think David went to purgatory and has been reincarnated several times since, but that's another story.

 

[miss interpret]

But he didn't reduce it two, he said "They HANG on these two", otherwise, you're still obeying commandments, they weren't "reduced". Do you still refrain from adultery? That's a commandment, it's not reduced, it just "hangs" on love of G_d and neighbor. Do you believe you can eat food sacrificed to idols and drink blood? If not, then those are still commandments, they aren't reduced to 2.. If I said don't go 90 mph and don't drive on the sidewalk both "hang" on the commandment to "be a good driver", that's the same concept. What did Jesus say to the Rich man when he asked him how to enter into life?

So my question is, as you dodged, what is the actual punishment and penalty for someone who disobeys any of these commandments which Jesus says "Hangs" on the Law? Do you believe a Christian is free to commit whatever sin he wants without fear of any penalty under the belief he's automatically forgiven for it or not? Again I refer you to Hebrews 10:26 and 1 John 3:4 for the definition of sin.

As for your question I think David went to purgatory and has been reincarnated several times since, but that's another story.

to me under Grace you are forgiven all sins past present and future so they cannot affect your salvation though the bible does talk about crowns and rewards in heaven so what we can expect once we get to heaven may be different.david in purgatory and then reincarnated, very interesting most people would not hessitate to say yes king david would be heaven and in reality you would probably agree though if you answered in that way it would mean a rethink on the law and ones conduct.lol