When it changed from LAW to GRACE ?

[obi one]

actually Grace is misunderstood especially by those who do not believe the blood of Christ attones for all their sins and still rely on their good works or self righteousness.the law is called the ministry of death, Jesus brought the ten commandments down to two and he fullfilled the needed sacrifice once and for all, Grace is a free gift and the gift of righteousness or right standing with God comes with accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, when God looks at the believer he deals with us according to the high priest as he always has and the believers high priest is Jesus.

Your position seems to be that you hold on to many of the teachings of Paul, for which I believe a case could be made for your position, but then you would also have to nail the testimony of Yeshua on the cross to keep from being put in an untenable position of being double minded. What you must remember is that Paul is all things to all people, a true apostle to politicians. You can take from Paul whatever you wish, but the problem is, you then become a disciple of a portion of the self professed prophet Paul's testimony which you chose. Being a free country, you can make your own choise to the path you take, but that isn't a guarantee that your choise will be the correct one. Yeshua said in Mt 7:13, that most people would choose the wide path to destruction. I can't imagine a wider path than the one you have chosen.

 

[miss interpret]

Your position seems to be that you hold on to many of the teachings of Paul, for which I believe a case could be made for your position, but then you would also have to nail the testimony of Yeshua on the cross to keep from being put in an untenable position of being double minded. What you must remember is that Paul is all things to all people, a true apostle to politicians. You can take from Paul whatever you wish, but the problem is, you then become a disciple of a portion of the self professed prophet Paul's testimony which you chose. Being a free country, you can make your own choise to the path you take, but that isn't a guarantee that your choise will be the correct one. Yeshua said in Mt 7:13, that most people would choose the wide path to destruction. I can't imagine a wider path than the one you have chosen.

I think I am on very solid ground, The whole bible talks of the one who is coming to take away the sins of the world so I think your assumptions of relying purely on Paul is unfounded as I said earlier in this debate I believe Grace was the original intention with God when moses led the people out of Egypt but you are of course welcome to your opinion.

 

[obi one]

I think I am on very solid ground, The whole bible talks of the one who is coming to take away the sins of the world so I think your assumptions of relying purely on Paul is unfounded as I said earlier in this debate I believe Grace was the original intention with God when moses led the people out of Egypt but you are of course welcome to your opinion.

As the whole OT is about the Law and the Prophets, and the whole of Yeshua's testimony could be construed as to be about the kingdom of God (Mt 6:33), which is the writing of the Commandments onto one's heart (Jer 31:33), what portion of the "whole bible" are you referring to, and how does "taking away the sins of the world" fit in, and since we are in a debate section, please be more specific?

 

[Shermana]

As the whole OT is about the Law and the Prophets, and the whole of Yeshua's testimony could be construed as to be about the kingdom of God (Mt 6:33), which is the writing of the Commandments onto one's heart (Jer 31:33),

^ Quoted for win.

 

[miss interpret]

As the whole OT is about the Law and the Prophets, and the whole of Yeshua's testimony could be construed as to be about the kingdom of God (Mt 6:33), which is the writing of the Commandments onto one's heart (Jer 31:33), what portion of the "whole bible" are you referring to, and how does "taking away the sins of the world" fit in, and since we are in a debate section, please be more specific?

the whole of the OT is not about the law as in the law of moses, referred to as the ministry of death, prophets yes it is but it constantly refers to the one who is to come Jesus, the problem with taking the single verse is you can get things out of context like the jw's with the blood problem, reference to me is not just about comparing verses but keeping in mind whole themes, I believe as I have stated Grace was God's orginal plan from the off, to just bless us and love us, even when moses led God's people from Egypt, God kept blessing despite the trouble and moaning all the way to the bottom of the mountain where the people say they can keep God's rules by themselves and thats when the trouble started, though that Grace is again available through Jesus.

 

[obi one]

the whole of the OT is not about the law as in the law of moses, referred to as the ministry of death, prophets yes it is but it constantly refers to the one who is to come Jesus, the problem with taking the single verse is you can get things out of context like the jw's with the blood problem, reference to me is not just about comparing verses but keeping in mind whole themes, I believe as I have stated Grace was God's orginal plan from the off, to just bless us and love us, even when moses led God's people from Egypt, God kept blessing despite the trouble and moaning all the way to the bottom of the mountain where the people say they can keep God's rules by themselves and thats when the trouble started, though that Grace is again available through Jesus.

Your coming from Paul's point of view, a guy who if he sins, increases Grace, and it is not him who sins, but according to his words, it is the devil within him who sins. On the other hand 1 John 3:10 explains how one overcomes, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God". Now of course if you haven't been born by the "Word", then there is a problem. To understand the "Word" you have to first seek the Kingdom (Mt 6:33) The kingdom of heaven, the gospel of Yeshua, is not even taught, much less understood.

 

[miss interpret]

Your coming from Paul's point of view, a guy who if he sins, increases Grace, and it is not him who sins, but according to his words, it is the devil within him who sins. On the other hand 1 John 3:10 explains how one overcomes, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God". Now of course if you haven't been born by the "Word", then there is a problem. To understand the "Word" you have to first seek the Kingdom (Mt 6:33) The kingdom of heaven, the gospel of Yeshua, is not even taught, much less understood.

Paul says how come I do what i should not and struggle to do what I should, so he certainly had problems doing right and wrong but finishes there is no condemnation for those in CHrist Jesu so that is very good news for believers.the law was fullfilled by Jesus that was the whole purpose of his coming, he made a way for God, the perfect judge, to Judge sin in the body of Jesus who took all our sins away, thus making a way for Grace, God's undeserved favour to be over us as it was in the beginning.Do you think King David will be in heaven?

 

[obi one]

Paul says how come I do what i should not and struggle to do what I should, so he certainly had problems doing right and wrong but finishes there is no condemnation for those in CHrist Jesu so that is very good news for believers.the law was fullfilled by Jesus that was the whole purpose of his coming, he made a way for God, the perfect judge, to Judge sin in the body of Jesus who took all our sins away, thus making a way for Grace, God's undeserved favour to be over us as it was in the beginning.Do you think King David will be in heaven?

King David was judged for his sins. For the sin of coveting his neighbor's wife, he suffered the loss of his Kingdom, loss of 7 of his concubines, his son died, and he died. He judged the rich man who took the lamb of the poor man to the fullest extent, and therefore David was judged to the fullest extent. Did he return to coveting other people's wifes, or did he rend his clothes and repent? And if Paul is not just a false prophet, but The false prophet, will he be in heaven? Rev 20:10

 

[miss interpret]

King David was judged for his sins. For the sin of coveting his neighbor's wife, he suffered the loss of his Kingdom, loss of 7 of his concubines, his son died, and he died. He judged the rich man who took the lamb of the poor man to the fullest extent, and therefore David was judged to the fullest extent. Did he return to coveting other people's wifes, or did he rend his clothes and repent? And if Paul is not just a false prophet, but The false prophet, will he be in heaven? Rev 20:10

So will he be in heaven or not?don't forget David was also a cold and calculating murderer.Under law would he be in heaven?What about abraham, is he in heaven?

 

[miss interpret]

King David was judged for his sins. For the sin of coveting his neighbor's wife, he suffered the loss of his Kingdom, loss of 7 of his concubines, his son died, and he died. He judged the rich man who took the lamb of the poor man to the fullest extent, and therefore David was judged to the fullest extent. Did he return to coveting other people's wifes, or did he rend his clothes and repent? And if Paul is not just a false prophet, but The false prophet, will he be in heaven? Rev 20:10

So will David be in heaven or not?don't forget David was also a cold and calculating murderer.Under law would he be in heaven?What about abraham, is he in heaven?

 

[obi one]

So will David be in heaven or not?don't forget David was also a cold and calculating murderer.Under law would he be in heaven?What about abraham, is he in heaven?

David was judged, and he died. As for any further judgement, that would not be done by "miss interpret", but would be according one's deeds, written in the book of Life. (Rev 20:13) This would apply to "miss interpret" also. As for the judgement of the false prophet, that judgement has already been established. (Rev 20:10)

As for who would be doing judging after Satan was bound, that would be those who heeded the testimony of Yeshua, and didn't receive the mark of the beast. (Rev 20:4) The beast being the 7th head of the beast of Rev 17, who was to deceived those who dwell on the earth. This beast was Constantine, the Roman king who combined the Eastern Roman empire with the Western Roman empire, the two legs of the statue of Dan 2:28, and the guy who established the Roman Catholic Church, and convened the Council of Nicaea, which was ultimately the source of your doctines, dogmas and ultimately, your canon.

As for any elect that have been deceived, I would recommend that they heed Rev 18:4, and "come out of her". As for the remaining, "the time is near",...let the one who does wrong, still do wrong,...my reward is with me, to render to every man according to what he has done". (Rev 22:10-11)

No false gospel of Grace is going to protect the immoral or those who practice lying. (Rev 22:15) I don't think you have to worry about Abraham, he believed God, and heeded his commands. As for king David, judge him as you will, I think I will refrain from judging the annointed of God.

 

[miss interpret]

David was judged, and he died. As for any further judgement, that would not be done by "miss interpret", but would be according one's deeds, written in the book of Life. (Rev 20:13) This would apply to "miss interpret" also. As for the judgement of the false prophet, that judgement has already been established. (Rev 20:10)

As for who would be doing judging after Satan was bound, that would be those who heeded the testimony of Yeshua, and didn't receive the mark of the beast. (Rev 20:4) The beast being the 7th head of the beast of Rev 17, who was to deceived those who dwell on the earth. This beast was Constantine, the Roman king who combined the Eastern Roman empire with the Western Roman empire, the two legs of the statue of Dan 2:28, and the guy who established the Roman Catholic Church, and convened the Council of Nicaea, which was ultimately the source of your doctines, dogmas and ultimately, your canon.

As for any elect that have been deceived, I would recommend that they heed Rev 18:4, and "come out of her". As for the remaining, "the time is near",...let the one who does wrong, still do wrong,...my reward is with me, to render to every man according to what he has done". (Rev 22:10-11)

No false gospel of Grace is going to protect the immoral or those who practice lying. (Rev 22:15) I don't think you have to worry about Abraham, he believed God, and heeded his commands. As for king David, judge him as you will, I think I will refrain from judging the annointed of God.

Grace is no false gospel it is Gods original plan, I am judging no one but remember the law leads only to sin and death, if it all goes on our performance I think heaqvven will be completely empty but Praise God he made a way for us to be saved.

 

[obi one]

Grace is no false gospel it is Gods original plan, I am judging no one but remember the law leads only to sin and death, if it all goes on our performance I think heaqvven will be completely empty but Praise God he made a way for us to be saved.

Since the odds are in favor of you dying, I think the Law will win, and your type of false hope of Pauline Grace failed. Paul is dead, and his body is in the ground. The Roman cohorts could not save him from death. The source of Paul's quote, in Romans 10:13, concerning "saved", has a meaning at odds with the original verse located on Joel 2:32.

Revelation was written after the crucifiction, so you are going to have a hard time nailing to the cross the fact that Yeshua says you are judged according to your deeds (Rev 20:13), and not that you did some altar call, or received a death chant by a Catholic priest, or was water baptised in a Baptist church. You are holding on to a slender reed, something that will probably cut your hand.

As for heaven going to be completely empty, fortunately for David, he repented and did not continue to sin, as apparently Paul felt it was quite all right, as long as he could blame the evil that dwelled within him. Apparently his followers feel free to follow. One must be baptised in the "Word", and the "Word" is characterized to be as unleavened bread. You cannot hope to be sanctified by being born in the double minded hypocracy of the Pharisees, which is compared to leaven.

You can stay in Babylon, and hold on to her dogmas, or you can "come out of her".

 

[sojourner]

Hi to all , and my greatest challenge to all , is to write why the Gospels are Part of the OT and why it changed in Acts 9:6 , because in Acts is a HARD and Transditional book and mis-understood , but here we will shift gears and show why Paul was chosen for a new message ,

It is found in Rom 1:1 , and for those who to not understand Dispensational thought , it may and WILL be harder to understand .

Rom 1:1 reads in a literal translation as follows ; Paul a slave of Jesus Christ a called apostle , HAVING BEEN SEPARATED for God's gospel .

In Gal 1:15 , Paul was already SEPERATED , from his mothers womb , and having called by HIS GRACE , GRACE , but no one believes that it was by Grace .

Having been sepatated , is A PERFECT TENSE , PASSIVE and a PARTICIPLE verb , and means the following .

SEPARATED/ APHORIZO is translated 3 ways ;
By Separated
By Limited
By Boundries

When Saul was called , chosen and elected , Saul was separated , boundries were set and Paul was then LIMITED to only preach Grace , and let the debate begin !!

#1 , APHORIZO is in the Present tense that happened in the Past .
This means that when Saul was saved in Acts 9:6 Saul was separated to only preach the Gospel of God , which only Paul was allowed to be preach , because Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles .

The 12 , were apostles to the Jews and ONLY to Israel .

The Past Actions , means that Saul could NEVER again be allowed to teach the Law of Moses or ever again be a Pharisee and the Present results are to teach Grace from then on ,

#2 , The Passive voice , speaks to , God put Saul into the Ministry , so where is the so-called FREE WILL ??

There is no free will !!

#3 , It is a Participle and see the translation , HAVING BEEN SEPARATED !!

Why another Apostle since there were already 12 , and that is because 12 apostles were to seat on 12 thrones judging Israel .

Saul is the FIRST/PROTOS saved by Grace and and no one will ever can DISPUTE IT , dan p

Yikes.
I don't even know where to begin here; this is so wrong -- on so many levels...

 

[sojourner]

Hi , mand uoy used John 8 , and where is the verse discribing Grace .

Psa 136 , shows how God uses MERCY in the Old Testament and John is still the OT , dan p

How is John still the OT???

 

[idea]

I believe "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23). It takes both, works and grace - not one or the other.

 

[dan p]

How is John still the OT???

Hi , and how about John 20:22 an 23 where the disciplkes were given the power to Remitt Sins or to Retain Sins ??

Is this for today ??

dan p

 

[idea]

Hi , and how about John 20:22 an 23 where the disciplkes were given the power to Remitt Sins or to Retain Sins ??

Is this for today ??

dan p

We have apostles in our church

 

[dan p]

We have apostles in our church

Hi , and Paul says that there ARE APOSTLES in the Body of Christ , Eph 4:11 and apostle just means Messanger .

And these are not the apostles of the OT , EITHER !!

Can you explain John 20:22 and 23 ??

DAN P

 

[idea]

Hi , and Paul says that there ARE APOSTLES in the Body of Christ , Eph 4:11 and apostle just means Messanger .

And these are not the apostles of the OT , EITHER !!

(Bible Dictionary | A Apostle:Entry)

Apostle. The word means "one sent forth." It was the title Jesus gave (Luke 6:13) to the twelve whom he chose and ordained (John 15:16) to be his closest disciples during his ministry on earth, and whom he sent forth to represent him after his ascension into heaven. The calling of an apostle is to be a special witness of the name of Jesus Christ in all the world, particularly of his divinity and of his bodily resurrection from the dead (Acts 1:22; D&C 107:23).

Twelve men with this high calling constitute an administrative council in the work of the ministry. When a vacancy occurred with the death of Judas Iscariot, Matthias was divinely appointed to that special office as a member of the council (Acts 1:15–26). Today twelve men with this same divine calling and ordination constitute the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The title was also applied to others who, though not of the number of the original twelve, yet were called to serve as special witnesses of the Lord. Paul repeatedly spoke of himself as an apostle (Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 1:1; 9:1; Gal. 1:1). He applied the title to James, the Lord's brother (Gal. 1:19), and also to Barnabas (1 Cor. 9:5–6; cf. Acts 14:4, 14). The New Testament does not inform us whether these three brethren also served in the council of the Twelve as vacancies occurred therein, or whether they were apostles strictly in the sense of being special witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is referred to as an apostle in Heb. 3:1–2, a designation meaning that he is the personal and select representative of the Father.

Can you explain John 20:22 and 23 ??

let's see..

(New Testament | John 20:22 - 23)
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

this is talking about the priesthood -

(Guide to the Scriptures | K Keys of the Priesthood.:Entry)

KEYS OF THE PRIESTHOOD. See also Dispensation; First Presidency; Priesthood

Keys are the rights of presidency, or the power given to man by God to direct, control, and govern God's priesthood on earth. Priesthood holders called to positions of presidency receive keys from those in authority over them. Priesthood holders use the priesthood only within the limits outlined by those who hold the keys. The President of the Church holds all priesthood keys (D&C 107:65–67, 91–92; 132:7).

Peter received the keys of the kingdom, Matt. 16:19. Michael (Adam) received the keys of salvation under the direction of Jesus Christ, D&C 78:16. The keys of the kingdom belong always to the First Presidency, D&C 81:2. The Melchizedek Priesthood holds the key of the mysteries of the knowledge of God, D&C 84:19. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery received keys concerning the gathering of Israel, the gospel of Abraham, and the sealing powers, D&C 110:11–16. Special keys are held by the Twelve Apostles, D&C 112:16. The First Presidency and the Twelve hold the keys of the dispensation of the fulness of times, D&C 112:30–34. Officers in the priesthood hold keys, D&C 124:123. He who has keys can obtain knowledge, D&C 128:11. The Aaronic Priesthood holds the keys of the ministering of angels and of the gospel of repentance and baptism, JS-H 1:69 (D&C 13).