When did God tell the Israelites that He was three persons?

[Soapy]

• Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
  Titus 2:14

Yes,… Jesus could easily have NOT sacrificed himself. He was given plenty of chances - Even Pontius Pilate tried to Jesus released. He failed because he was too afraid of the crowd of people demanding the death of Jesus and the release of Barabbas. Jesus kept his mouth shut since any answer he gave would have been a defence - so Yes, he sacrificed himself just as the prophecy states:

• ‘No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down […]. This command I received from my Father.” (John 10:18)
• He humbled himself even unto death, and death on the cross’ (Phil 2:8)

The death on the cross is especially poignant since it was the pinnacle of humiliation for a Jew ‘to be hung from a tree’.

And afterwards: “GOD RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD’.

 

[Soapy]

I imagine you would have seen many people claim you have not answered them.

Yes, of course, Trinitarians learn these deceitful ways from each other. They think it makes them devilishly clever… Sons of their Father : “He was a liar from the beginning!”

The soul of a person does not die at the death of their body. (Matt 10:28,) also see the witch of Endor story when Samuel was brought up from his rest in sheol to speak to Saul. Also see the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive according to Jesus and could be resurrected. Being asleep does not mean being out of existence.

I totally agree that the soul (the PERSON) does not die at death of the person.

‘DEATH’ is a human term and is used to denote passing of the SPIRIT of a soul OUT OF THE PHYSICAL WORLD in a separation from the body. Because, as ‘LIVING SOULS’, we cannot communicate with a ‘NON-LIVING SOUL’, we call it ‘DEATH’. Jesus, many times told those that thought their loved ones were ‘DEAD’, that the person WAS NOT DEAD but only SLEEPING. That ‘Sleeping’ is the Spirit RESTING WITH GOD - God who made it as God is the Father of Spirits!

The instances of Spirits communicating in the material world are FALSE. The incident with Saul is totally shown to be a fake voice of Samuel. I cannot understand how you ever claim that to be true - but I can understand how your trinitarian view would draw you into the deceit as strongly as it did with Saul in thinking it was true!!! And the rich man and Lazarus is clearly designed to show that no be should refer to the dead as a source of direction or information: ‘If they don’t listen to the living then how are they to believe the dead!’ - that’s the message! (Plus, you really believe that the spirit of the dead need water to wet their lips… what lips!!?)

So, I expect you think I might disagree about the main idea… You need to get up way earlier than that to catch me out with those banal childish attempts at deceit… and you say you are the truth teller??

If Jesus died and was not in existence then He would have had to have been recreated. It would be a copy of Jesus and not the same one who was reunited with His body.

Typical trinitarian again… I did not say that Jesus was not in existence… clearly if the spirit exists then the soul exists. The Soul IS the person.

The soul (specifically, the Spirit of a person) can only be DESTROYED…. By the power of God.

God, by his spirit, created the spirit of each being (human, animal, or angel) and therefore ONLY GOD, by his Spirit, can destroy a Spirit.

And when the spirit is destroyed then the soul no longer exists. And:

• ‘There will be no remembrance of them!’

And this is totally correct: After the judgement those deemed unworthy of being in Jesus’ kingdom and all sinfulness and any kind of DEATH ITSELF, will be DESTROYED and no one will remember such persons (such souls) or systems… So those who claim an eternal torment are speaking falsehood or are simply mistaken in their interpretation of the scriptures.

But I’ve explained above. I’m not telling you, personally, but for anyone else reading this. It’s clear that you are playing devils advocate since you know full well what you are doing is facetious and deceitful.

So, why? Why do you find it necessary to claim to be godly yet clearly doing the works of Satan?

 

[blü 2]

If disagreements happened then the Son and the Spirit would submit to the will of the Father.

Then, as I said, why waste time talking to Jesus or the Ghost, when, as Judaism has said all along, you can go straight to the top?

But I say again that the Trinity doctrine doesn't go that route. Instead it declares that each of Father, Jesus and Ghost is 100% of God AND that the Father is not Jesus or the Ghost and Jesus is not the Ghost. And THAT is why it makes no sense, and THAT is why it's called "a mystery in the strict sense".

Important question: what do you say is the "mystery in the strict sense" about the Trinity doctrine (since you say it's not the point above)?

The Bible does not expressly say that, it leaves it open as there could be a father in law there.

With great respect, that's just silly. Both concoctions, Matthew's and Luke's, purport to be a genealogy of Jesus to show he was descended from David, because a good messiah should be descended from David. Both of them end with Joseph, as I gave you the references for. And each is thoroughly incompatible with the other, and each is irrelevant because Joseph is stated unambiguously NOT to be Jesus' father.

On top of which, Mark's Jesus had already made it clear that he was NOT descended from David AND that it was not necessary to be.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Yes,… Jesus could easily have NOT sacrificed himself. He was given plenty of chances - Even Pontius Pilate tried to Jesus released. He failed because he was too afraid of the crowd of people demanding the death of Jesus and the release of Barabbas. Jesus kept his mouth shut since any answer he gave would have been a defence - so Yes, he sacrificed himself just as the prophecy states:

• ‘No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down […]. This command I received from my Father.” (John 10:18)
• He humbled himself even unto death, and death on the cross’ (Phil 2:8)

The death on the cross is especially poignant since it was the pinnacle of humiliation for a Jew ‘to be hung from a tree’.

And afterwards: “GOD RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD’.

Jesus is our Redeemer. Jesus is God incarnate.

 

[Brian2]

Then, as I said, why waste time talking to Jesus or the Ghost, when, as Judaism has said all along, you can go straight to the top?

But I say again that the Trinity doctrine doesn't go that route. Instead it declares that each of Father, Jesus and Ghost is 100% of God AND that the Father is not Jesus or the Ghost and Jesus is not the Ghost. And THAT is why it makes no sense, and THAT is why it's called "a mystery in the strict sense".

Important question: what do you say is the "mystery in the strict sense" about the Trinity doctrine (since you say it's not the point above)?

The trinity is just hard to fully comprehend. I think I understand more fully now than I used to however, but it is an ongoing thing.
Anyone can pray to the Father but it is in Christ that we have forgiveness and peace between the Father and us. Otherwise we come to the Father with our own righteousness, which as Isaiah said is like filthy rags.

With great respect, that's just silly. Both concoctions, Matthew's and Luke's, purport to be a genealogy of Jesus to show he was descended from David, because a good messiah should be descended from David. Both of them end with Joseph, as I gave you the references for. And each is thoroughly incompatible with the other, and each is irrelevant because Joseph is stated unambiguously NOT to be Jesus' father.

On top of which, Mark's Jesus had already made it clear that he was NOT descended from David AND that it was not necessary to be.

Actually both show that Jesus was not descended from David if they are both the genealogy of Joseph. Both those gospels have Jesus father as God.
Also Luke has Luke 3:23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
and Matthew has Matt 1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.
Matthew never says that Joseph is the father of Jesus.
But Matthew was writing for the Jews who would want to know the legal standing of Jesus through His father Joseph and Luke was writing for a Gentile audience who would want to know whether Jesus was really a descendant of David (which both gospels say He was)

I don't know what you are talking about with Mark showing that Jesus was not descended from David and that it did not matter anyway.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, of course, Trinitarians learn these deceitful ways from each other. They think it makes them devilishly clever… Sons of their Father : “He was a liar from the beginning!”

I totally agree that the soul (the PERSON) does not die at death of the person.

‘DEATH’ is a human term and is used to denote passing of the SPIRIT of a soul OUT OF THE PHYSICAL WORLD in a separation from the body. Because, as ‘LIVING SOULS’, we cannot communicate with a ‘NON-LIVING SOUL’, we call it ‘DEATH’. Jesus, many times told those that thought their loved ones were ‘DEAD’, that the person WAS NOT DEAD but only SLEEPING. That ‘Sleeping’ is the Spirit RESTING WITH GOD - God who made it as God is the Father of Spirits!

The instances of Spirits communicating in the material world are FALSE. The incident with Saul is totally shown to be a fake voice of Samuel. I cannot understand how you ever claim that to be true - but I can understand how your trinitarian view would draw you into the deceit as strongly as it did with Saul in thinking it was true!!! And the rich man and Lazarus is clearly designed to show that no be should refer to the dead as a source of direction or information: ‘If they don’t listen to the living then how are they to believe the dead!’ - that’s the message! (Plus, you really believe that the spirit of the dead need water to wet their lips… what lips!!?)

So, I expect you think I might disagree about the main idea… You need to get up way earlier than that to catch me out with those banal childish attempts at deceit… and you say you are the truth teller??/QUOTE]

You said:>>>The greatest event in human history : the sacrificial death of a holy, sinless, and totally righteous man (described as the ‘Lamb of God who takes away the sin of man’), is called a lie by those proclaiming that Jesus was in fact GOD IN THE FLESH and therefore DID NOT DIE!!!<<<

Why did you say that when we both agree that the soul does not die at the death of the body? Jesus soul did not die at the death of His body.

Typical trinitarian again… I did not say that Jesus was not in existence… clearly if the spirit exists then the soul exists. The Soul IS the person.

The soul (specifically, the Spirit of a person) can only be DESTROYED…. By the power of God.

God, by his spirit, created the spirit of each being (human, animal, or angel) and therefore ONLY GOD, by his Spirit, can destroy a Spirit.

And when the spirit is destroyed then the soul no longer exists. And:

• ‘There will be no remembrance of them!’

And this is totally correct: After the judgement those deemed unworthy of being in Jesus’ kingdom and all sinfulness and any kind of DEATH ITSELF, will be DESTROYED and no one will remember such persons (such souls) or systems… So those who claim an eternal torment are speaking falsehood or are simply mistaken in their interpretation of the scriptures.

But I’ve explained above. I’m not telling you, personally, but for anyone else reading this. It’s clear that you are playing devils advocate since you know full well what you are doing is facetious and deceitful.

So, why? Why do you find it necessary to claim to be godly yet clearly doing the works of Satan?

 

[blü 2]

The trinity is just hard to fully comprehend. I think I understand more fully now than I used to however, but it is an ongoing thing.

No, that's not why it's called "a mystery in the strict sense" (which theologically speaking is a notch up from your everyday "mystery" in the first place). It's called "a mystery in the strict sense because (and I quote)

"it cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed". (Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, under "Trinity")
​

Note that last part ─ it defies reason even after it's been revealed. So I'm asserting that my example (that all three are 100% of God, as the doctrine says, while at the same time God is not Jesus or the Ghost and Jesus is not the Ghost) fits that description and yours does not.

Mind you, I sympathize with your position ─ it's tough when you're wrong BECAUSE you make sense. But ─ as it says above ─ not making sense is the essential quality, the sine qua non, of "mysteries in the strict sense".

Anyone can pray to the Father but it is in Christ that we have forgiveness and peace between the Father and us. Otherwise we come to the Father with our own righteousness, which as Isaiah said is like filthy rags.

You say that the Father has no power to forgive?

Mark 2:10 “the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”.

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority]; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

That is, at least for the Jesuses of Mark and of John (I haven't checked the others) he can only do this because God has authorized him. For that purpose he's enabled to exercise a power which originates with God.

Actually both show that Jesus was not descended from David if they are both the genealogy of Joseph.

Yes, exactly ─ IF God is the father of Matthew's and of Luke's Jesuses THEN Joseph is not and his genealogy is irrelevant (and fake, but that won't detain us because, well, it's irrelevant).

I don't know what you are talking about with Mark showing that Jesus was not descended from David and that it did not matter anyway.

I'm talking about Mark 12:35-37.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus is our Redeemer. Jesus is God incarnate.

Oh you are just joshing….. “Leave it ‘art, boss!”

 

[Soapy]

Learn to /quote/ properly and check what you post before or after you post….

You said:>>>The greatest event in human history : the sacrificial death of a holy, sinless, and totally righteous man (described as the ‘Lamb of God who takes away the sin of man’), is called a lie by those proclaiming that Jesus was in fact GOD IN THE FLESH and therefore DID NOT DIE!!!<<<

Why did you say that when we both agree that the soul does not die at the death of the body? Jesus soul did not die at the death of His body.

Brian2, are you really testing my ability to understand language in general and English specifically?

The spirit resting with God is what humanity calls ‘DEATH’. So I use the term since this is what we as humans can only allude to regarding one who’s spirit is given up to God:

• ‘Father, into thy hands I commit my Spirit… and then he breathed his last’

‘Death’ is the state of the spirit of a being resting in the metaphorical ‘hands of God’… The Soul is still in remembrance (‘Do this in remembrance of Me!’)
but communication with or between souls is not a possible activity.
—————————————————-
Squirming around trying to find a worm hole out if your clearly fallacious ideas doesn’t work! Give it up, Brian2, you are well out of your depth unless you desire to sink further into the clutches of the evil one.

 

[Brian2]

No, that's not why it's called "a mystery in the strict sense" (which theologically speaking is a notch up from your everyday "mystery" in the first place). It's called "a mystery in the strict sense because (and I quote)

"it cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed". (Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, under "Trinity")
​

Note that last part ─ it defies reason even after it's been revealed. So I'm asserting that my example (that all three are 100% of God, as the doctrine says, while at the same time God is not Jesus or the Ghost and Jesus is not the Ghost) fits that description and yours does not.

Mind you, I sympathize with your position ─ it's tough when you're wrong BECAUSE you make sense. But ─ as it says above ─ not making sense is the essential quality, the sine qua non, of "mysteries in the strict sense".

In a sense each of them are 100% of God because in each of them resides the other 2.
But I suppose that is still too easy to understand for you to accept,,,,,,,,,,,, even if it is what you said about "100% of."

You say that the Father has no power to forgive?

Mark 2:10 “the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”.

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority]; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

That is, at least for the Jesuses of Mark and of John (I haven't checked the others) he can only do this because God has authorized him. For that purpose he's enabled to exercise a power which originates with God.

I did not say that the Father has no power to forgive sin. I said that in Christ there is forgiveness and peace with God. If you are not in Christ you can pray to God and repent and I hope He will forgive you and I can't see why not but I'm not God.

Yes, exactly ─ IF God is the father of Matthew's and of Luke's Jesuses THEN Joseph is not and his genealogy is irrelevant (and fake, but that won't detain us because, well, it's irrelevant).

It's relevant for people who believe the Bible. It's relevant that it can be worked out why the genealogies are true even if they are different genealogies.

I'm talking about Mark 12:35-37.

Mark 12:35 While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “Why do the teachers of the law say that the Messiah is the son of David? 36 David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’
37 David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

I still don't see why you think that means the Jesus is not descended from David and that the descent from David does not matter.
It is just that a father in Jewish culture is higher than a son so Jesus was wondering if they knew why David would call the Messiah his Lord.
Interestingly I have been told by Jews these days that Psalm 110 is Messianic. I presume that means they have changed interpretation over the years or the gospels were just telling lies about the interpretation of the Psalm as messianic.
It is obviously Messianic to me since the Messiah is going to judge the nations. See Psalm 2. But then again I don't know that the Jews see Psalm 2 as Messianic these days. Sorry for that aside.

 

[Brian2]

Learn to /quote/ properly and check what you post before or after you post….


Brian2, are you really testing my ability to understand language in general and English specifically?

The spirit resting with God is what humanity calls ‘DEATH’. So I use the term since this is what we as humans can only allude to regarding one who’s spirit is given up to God:

• ‘Father, into thy hands I commit my Spirit… and then he breathed his last’

‘Death’ is the state of the spirit of a being resting in the metaphorical ‘hands of God’… The Soul is still in remembrance (‘Do this in remembrance of Me!’)
but communication with or between souls is not a possible activity.
—————————————————-
Squirming around trying to find a worm hole out if your clearly fallacious ideas doesn’t work! Give it up, Brian2, you are well out of your depth unless you desire to sink further into the clutches of the evil one.

Of course I still don't understand why you say that trinitarians say that Jesus did not die.

 

[Soapy]

Of course I still don't understand why you say that trinitarians say that Jesus did not die.

Because, Brian2, that is their way of trying to get around the claim that Jesus is God and went to preach to the people of Noah’s day while he was dead in the grave….

It is quite an understandable cause for a fallacious doctrine: They say Jesus is God… God cannot die because God is Spirit. So they say that God didn’t die - only his body died. Now that’s a deceptive talk since the body is only a vessel which is animated by the spirit in it. As I showed, ‘death’ is the separation of the animating spirit from the body - which we as humans call ‘Death’. The body no longer is in a functioning state and therefore decays due to lack of maintenance. The spirit rests with God… but therein lies a problem: If God WAS the spirit in the body that was Jesus… who is Jesus that he committed GOD his spirit TO GOD? … and that spirit which is God ‘rested WITH GOD’.. ? And if that spirit which is God was resting with God then how was that spirit still active to go back in time to the days of Noah? The answer is, of course, that the verse claiming that ‘Jesus went back in spirit to the days of Noah’ have been injected in the scriptures to try to cover the the fact that Jesus was ‘DEAD’, dormant of life, both in body and spirit: an anomaly and impossibility of credentials which does nothing but harm to the truth of God - making Christianity appear farcical to detractors or against other beliefs.

But on a postage stamp: They say; “God was dead in the grave with his spirit sleeping with God and went in his spirit that was resting with God to preach to the people of Noah’s day.”

If that sounds convoluted then you are right - but that’s what Trinitarians say and why I say that the belief and ideology of trinity is false.

 

[Soapy]

In a sense each of them are 100% of God because in each of them resides the other 2.
But I suppose that is still too easy to understand for you to accept,,,,,,,,,,,, even if it is what you said about "100% of."




I did not say that the Father has no power to forgive sin. I said that in Christ there is forgiveness and peace with God. If you are not in Christ you can pray to God and repent and I hope He will forgive you and I can't see why not but I'm not God.



It's relevant for people who believe the Bible. It's relevant that it can be worked out why the genealogies are true even if they are different genealogies.



Mark 12:35 While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “Why do the teachers of the law say that the Messiah is the son of David? 36 David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’
37 David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

I still don't see why you think that means the Jesus is not descended from David and that the descent from David does not matter.
It is just that a father in Jewish culture is higher than a son so Jesus was wondering if they knew why David would call the Messiah his Lord.
Interestingly I have been told by Jews these days that Psalm 110 is Messianic. I presume that means they have changed interpretation over the years or the gospels were just telling lies about the interpretation of the Psalm as messianic.
It is obviously Messianic to me since the Messiah is going to judge the nations. See Psalm 2. But then again I don't know that the Jews see Psalm 2 as Messianic these days. Sorry for that aside.

There are several occasions where one who is alludes to another to come as their ‘Lord’ or in equivalence:

• Abraham alludes to Jesus as his ‘Lord’ even though Jesus was not yet in existence. Abraham foresaw the day that Jesus was to come - and was glad
• John the Baptist alludes to Jesus as his ‘Lord’ even though Jesus had not yet been ‘Sent by God’: ‘The one TO COME is greater than I’…
• And David alludes to the messiah in the same way calling Jesus, ‘Lord’

Now please don’t go weird because Abraham nor John didn’t actually use the term, ‘Lord’. It’s in the understanding of the meaning of the word: ‘Lord’. Think what it means and you will see that it is correct.

All in all, the short answer is:

• ‘He (Abraham, David, John the Baptist) is great but there is one to come (The Messiah) who is greater’

This also answers the query about John 8:58. The Jews asked Jesus if he was greater than Abraham. Jesus answered:

• ‘Yes, I am greater than Abraham, since Abraham himself looking in vision saw my coming day - the promise of God- and was glad to know that one in his lineage was the prophesied messiah! Even Abraham declared me greater than he - he whom even God called “Friend” but whom God called ‘Son’ - and surely ‘Son’ is greater than “Friend”’!!

 

[Wildswanderer]

Oh you are just joshing….. “Leave it ‘art, boss!”

I have no idea what you just said.

 

[Wildswanderer]

doctrine: They say Jesus is God… God cannot die because God is Spirit. So they say that God didn’t die - only his body died.

No one dies. Only the body dies.

 

[Brian2]

If God WAS the spirit in the body that was Jesus… who is Jesus that he committed GOD his spirit TO GOD? … and that spirit which is God ‘rested WITH GOD’.. ? And if that spirit which is God was resting with God then how was that spirit still active to go back in time to the days of Noah? The answer is, of course, that the verse claiming that ‘Jesus went back in spirit to the days of Noah’ have been injected in the scriptures to try to cover the the fact that Jesus was ‘DEAD’, dormant of life, both in body and spirit: an anomaly and impossibility of credentials which does nothing but harm to the truth of God - making Christianity appear farcical to detractors or against other beliefs.

There are a couple of problems in what you said.
1) Jesus did not go back in time to the time of Noah. Those spirits were in prison when Jesus died and Jesus went there to visit them.
2) The Bible teaches that the souls of the dead can be raised to speak to people. I wanted to just skip over the Witch of Endor story but..................
If you can find me a place in the story of the witch where the soul of Samuel is said to be a fake or where it does not call the soul "Samuel" OK but if you can't then you should believe what the Bible tells us, that Samuel was raised up in spirit form to speak to Saul.
That the dead go to Hades and can be conscious there is taught in the Bible also.
I think you have learnt incorrectly about what death is.
BUT that bit about what death is does not really need to be in my argument because 1Pet 3:18 tells us
1Pet 3:18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, 19in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison…

So He was made alive in the spirit and that could also entail His death according to what seems your definition and then being made alive in the spirit.

If that sounds convoluted then you are right - but that’s what Trinitarians say and why I say that the belief and ideology of trinity is false.

So you have no reason now to say the trinity is false.

 

[Brian2]

All in all, the short answer is:

• ‘He (Abraham, David, John the Baptist) is great but there is one to come (The Messiah) who is greater’

This also answers the query about John 8:58. The Jews asked Jesus if he was greater than Abraham. Jesus answered:

• ‘Yes, I am greater than Abraham, since Abraham himself looking in vision saw my coming day - the promise of God- and was glad to know that one in his lineage was the prophesied messiah! Even Abraham declared me greater than he - he whom even God called “Friend” but whom God called ‘Son’ - and surely ‘Son’ is greater than “Friend”’!!

That's an interesting take on John 8:58. Even JWs, not wanting John 8:58 to be Jesus calling Himself by the name of God "I am" say that the passage is just saying that Jesus said that He existed before Abraham.
You can't ignore that statement by Jesus of existing before Abraham surely.

 

[Soapy]

No one dies. Only the body dies.

You have been reading too much fallacy ideology.

While it is true that the body ‘dies’ but the Spirit does not die, I can see where you are trying to mislead the debate. The proper definitions would reveal your deceit:

• ‘Death’ : a removal or separation of the spirit from the body. The body is just a vehicle for the spirit therefore it cannot function without the spirit in it in the same way a robot cannot function without an activating program in it
• ‘Decay’: A returning of the chemical elements of an entity back to basic or more simplistic matter loosening the binding properties of the entity
• ‘Sleep’: The Spirit of a person resting in the metaphorical arms of God - inert; dormant; resting
• ‘Living Soul’: A spirit-enlivened body
• ‘Soul’: Person or animal (body and spirit together)

A person in a Coma is not ‘dead’; the spirit is still in the body. The person is still a living soul.

A person whose spirit has departed the body is an ‘non-living Soul’.

A ‘Dead person’ is a human term referring to the inability for a living person to communicate with the spirit of the persons whose spirit has departed the body.

DESTROYED: A little used term in these matters. God is the creator, the Father of Spirits… only He can create a spirit - and only He can DESTROY a spirit.

Destruction of a Spirit means that ALL REMEMBRANCE OF THAT SOUL IS GONE! They cannot be brought back to mind… This only happens at the very end of time.

So, No! No one is lacking remembrance until that time but that doesn’t mean that as a ‘dead person’ they are able to communicate or function in any capacity in the physical or the spirit world.

 

[Soapy]

There are a couple of problems in what you said.
1) Jesus did not go back in time to the time of Noah. Those spirits were in prison when Jesus died and Jesus went there to visit them.
2) The Bible teaches that the souls of the dead can be raised to speak to people. I wanted to just skip over the Witch of Endor story but..................
If you can find me a place in the story of the witch where the soul of Samuel is said to be a fake or where it does not call the soul "Samuel" OK but if you can't then you should believe what the Bible tells us, that Samuel was raised up in spirit form to speak to Saul.
That the dead go to Hades and can be conscious there is taught in the Bible also.
I think you have learnt incorrectly about what death is.

I have outlined to you (and others) that ‘Death’ is a human term… it expresses that the spirit of a person has departed from the body and thus there is no way of a living person communicating with the ‘dead’ person: That is DEATH in a human perspective. I am not describing ‘DESTRUCTION [of the body and Spirit]’. That is a finality of existence which only comes at the end of time after the judgement of the world.

BUT that bit about what death is does not really need to be in my argument because 1Pet 3:18 tells us
1Pet 3:18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, 19in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison…/QUOTE]
So this demonstrates that it is you who does not understand what ‘DEATH’ is.

The quote from the verse in 1 Peter 3:18 is speaking of Jesus raised up to Heaven AFTER he was resurrected from the grave (which is to say that God placed jesus’ spirit back into a GLORIFIED BODY of jesus that was in the tomb. The body was now RE-ANIMATED but then jesus was taken up to Heaven: a Spirit-only realm. He was taken up in his Spirit only. It is the same as the verse that states:

• “The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.” (1 Cor 14:45)

‘BECAME’ a life m-giving Spirit. That is to say that this LAST ADAM (Holy, righteous, sinless MAN), WILL GIVE EVERLASTING LIFE to those whom he judges worthy at the judgement seat as a Spirit-living person in Heaven at the end of time: ‘Eternal Father’.

Verse 19 is clearly one of those injected verses which anyone who calls themselves ‘Spirit-led’ would dismiss out of hand since Jesus GAVE UP HIS SPIRIT TO GOD:

• ‘Father, Into thy hands I commit my spirit’

Jesus committing his spirit to God and then still being ‘active in the spirit’ is as farcical and deceitful as the trinitarian twist of Jesus giving up being god but still remaining being god!!

So He was made alive in the spirit and that could also entail His death according to what seems your definition and then being made alive in the spirit.

You must struggle awfully to try to come up with such drivel…. It’s clear that that makes no sense in anything resembling truth. You must remember that Peter wrote these things years after Jesus was taken up to Heaven. Jesus did not ‘enter Heaven in a glorified body’ so only his ‘resurrected’ and now ACTIVE SPIRIT can enter Heaven. Jesus has the ability and the authority now to restore a body to his spirit when he comes into the physical world.

So you have no reason now to say the trinity is false.

Always the same… Your presentations and rebuffs show you are struggling to find ways to continue your deceit against the truth - but again, I warn you against being in the clutches of your Spiritual Father!!

 

[Brian2]

I have outlined to you (and others) that ‘Death’ is a human term… it expresses that the spirit of a person has departed from the body and thus there is no way of a living person communicating with the ‘dead’ person: That is DEATH in a human perspective. I am not describing ‘DESTRUCTION [of the body and Spirit]’. That is a finality of existence which only comes at the end of time after the judgement of the world.

If God brings someone back from Hades to communicate with the living then it can happen.
If God made Jesus alive in the spirit/Spirit after the death of His body then God can do that.