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What would refute creationism?

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Hi metis. Good afternoon. Looking at the fossil record does not prove a split.

Why do you continue to use the word "prove" after several people have already informed you of your mistake?

If anything, the fossil record proves Noah's flood and that of rapid burial.

That's absurd as fossil deposits are layered. We don't find rabbits, or indeed any mammal, in cambrian rocks for example. We don't find chickens together with dinosaurs. We don't find humans together with trilobites. And so on.

Most of the fossils we have today resulted from the flood.
PRATT BS

It was just two days ago on the Sabbath Day, when I heard another story of one who had purchased a beautiful farm high up on a hill with an incredible view to see miles around on a clear day. Nearly every one of the rocks that were broken on that elevation contained a sea creature inside. This was undoubtedly resulted from the flood.

No. It was because at one point in the distant past, that place was a seabed.

Many fossils such as fossilized jellyfish, show by the details of their soft, fleshly portions that were were buried rapidly, before they could decay. (Normally, dead animals and plants quickly decompose.)


For fossilization to occur, burial in the right way is a necessity otherwise no fossils form.
The idea that only a physically impossible magical flood is capable of doing that, is so absurd that it doesn't even merit any further comment.

The presence of fossilized remains of many other animals buried in mass graves and lying in twisted and contorted positions, suggest violent and rapid burials over large areas. These observations plus the occurence of compressed fossils and fossils that cut across two or more layers of sedimentary rock, are strong evidence that the sediments encasing these fossils were deposited rapidly - not over hundreds of millions of years.

Multiple layers of deposit don't happen "rapidly".

Futhermore, almost all sediments that formed today's rocks were sorted by water. The worldwide fossil record is, therefore, evidence of rapid death and burial of animal and plant life by a worldwide, catastrophic flood.

FUN FACT: geology as a science was actually kickstarted by christians who set out to find evidence of the biblical flood. Instead, what they found was that no such thing ever happened.

Let's look at DNA for a bit and see what science has shown. Evolutionists say the chimpanzee is the closest living relative to humans. For two decades (1984 - 2004), evolutionists and the media resorted to lies again by claiming that human DNA is 99% similar to chimpanzee DNA. These false statements had little scientific justification, because they were made before anyone had completed the sequencing of human DNA and long before the sequencing of chimpanzee DNA had begun.

The chimp genome has been sequenced in full for quite some time now.
The close relationship is a genetic fact.

Chimpanzee and human DNA have now been completely sequenced and compared. The overall differences, which are far greater and more complicated than evolutionists suspected, include about thirty-five million single-nucleotide changes, five million insertions or deletions, and various chromosomal rearrangements. Although only about 4% of human and chimpanzee DNA differ, those critical differences amount to a vast chasm.

It depends what exactly is being measured.
But by any and all accounts, chimp and human DNA are very close together.
And considering the split happened some 7 million years ago, that is more then enough to account for the differences.

The differences, btw, are hierarchical in nature. Exactly like evolution predicts.

I should add that natural processes cannot produce large amounts of information.

BS

The genetic information in the DNA of each human cell is roughly equivalent to a library of 4,000 books.

And it is the result of (at least) 3.8 billion years of evolution

Let's pretend that somehow, despite evidence to the contrary, that matter and life arose - perhaps only a bacterium - the probability that mutations and natural selections produced this vast amount of information is essentially zero. It would be similar to producing 4,000 books with the following procedure:

a) Start with a meaningful phrase
b) Retype the phrase, but add letters and make some errors
c) See if the new phrase is meaningful
d) If it is, replace the original phrase with it
e) Return to step "b"

False analogy.
Meaning of language is determined before hand.
And DNA doesn't deal in "meaning". It is not a means of communication.
DNA is a molecule engaged in a chemical reaction.

You're not even comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing organic apples and plastic oranges.

You are in the category of "not even wrong" here.

To produce just the enzymes in one organism would require more than 10 to the power of 40,000 trials

Strawman. Evolution is gradual. The enzymes used by organisms today are the result of at least 3.8 billion years of gradual evolution.

Does that sound plausible to you?

No. Good thing it's not what evolution requires to happen.
But how should you know? Clearly all you can do is parrot creationist liars.

The mechanism of the theory of evolution for the explanation of the development of life is wholly inadequate

The strawman you argue indeed is.
The actual theory is not.

and studies in to DNA have not supported the theory of evolution

I can only laugh at that.

. The Bible is however plausible, that life was created and designed by a thoughtful and intelligent Higher Power

Claims of magic by undemonstrable and physically impossible entities are not plausible. They never are

and that life on this earth is only a few thousands years old.

There's drawings in caves over 50k years old.
There's rather complete fossils over 350 million years old.
The oldest trace of life on this planet is 3.8 BILLION years old.

You may return to your copy-paste ostrich defenses now.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
See this is where TOEism goes astray...it refuses to answer the fundamental philosophical questions...

1. Where did we come from? (what are the origins of the big bang...which actually strongly supports creationism btw)

The Big Bang theory is about the origins of the universe, of elementary particles and matters (atoms, molecules), of star and galaxy formation.

What the Big Bang also covered is the formation of our Solar System, including the planet Earth, but say nothing about the origin of “life” on Earth.

The Big Bang theory is a subject where the core of it is physics, it isn’t a biology subject.

The Theory of Evolution, on the other hand, is all about the biodiversity of populations of organisms, hence about adaptions to the environment (Natural Selection), about speciation, about mutations and genetics, but not about the origin of life (which is Abiogenesis).

Abiogenesis is still a hypothesis, so undergrad students are not taught Abiogenesis. Only research scientists are exploring Abiogenesis.

Abiogenesis is mainly focused on biochemistry, particularly on the origins of biological macromolecules, like proteins, nucleic acids (RNA, DNA), carbohydrates, lipids and other organic compounds, before cells were formed, hence before genetics and evolution.

The ToE have nothing to do with astronomy and astrophysics, nothing to do with stars and galaxies, and nothing to do with the rest of the Universe. Evolution is purely biology subject, not subject in astrophysics and physical cosmology.

For you to mix Evolution with the Big Bang theory, showed that you don’t understand either subjects.

The question is why you are bringing up the Big Bang theory?

Second.

Some creationists like those who followed the Young Earth Creationism (YEC) don’t accept the Big Bang theory at all. In fact, the Big Bang theory don’t support Genesis creation at all, it roundly debunked the 6-day creation of Genesis 1.

According to YEC interpretations of Genesis 1:1-2, the heavens and Earth were created at the same time, with “heavens” being interpreted as the “Universe”. And that the Earth was covered in water in verse 2, and the Earth was created BEFORE the stars (which would include before the Sun), Genesis 1:16.

The Big Bang theory disagree with everything in Genesis 1:1-2 and 1:14-18.

The Universe is about 13.8 billion years old, and there are many millions of stars in the Milky Way that older than our Sun, older than the Solar System and olde than the Earth. The Earth itself didn’t form until 9 billion years later.

So no, the Big Bang theory doesn’t agree with Genesis Creation at all.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@Subduction Zone
It would seem to me that refuting creationism is rather simple.

I suspect creationists fall into two camps.

Those that say God's voice is audible such as those who say Moses heard it etc and those who say God's commandments are the operation of God's will and not an audible commandment.

The first camp is refuted by the fact that we observe things forming under their properties and don't hear God commanding them to be the way they are. If this type of creationism were true things should wait for the command of God to appear regardless of their properties.

The second camp doesn't make such an obvious difference because if the commandment of God is inaudible God could be continually commanding things to form as fast as their properties allow it.

For the second camp Occam's razor is useful because if things form as fast as their properties allow it there is no need for the additional assumption of an undetectable spirit issuing undetectable commands that only allowed what was naturally allowable under the properties of the thing in question anyway.

In my opinion.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
@Subduction Zone
It would seem to me that refuting creationism is rather simple.

I suspect creationists fall into two camps.

Those that say God's voice is audible such as those who say Moses heard it etc and those who say God's commandments are the operation of God's will and not an audible commandment.

The first camp is refuted by the fact that we observe things forming under their properties and don't hear God commanding them to be the way they are. If this type of creationism were true things should wait for the command of God to appear regardless of their properties.

The second camp doesn't make such an obvious difference because if the commandment of God is inaudible God could be continually commanding things to form as fast as their properties allow it.

For the second camp Occam's razor is useful because if things form as fast as their properties allow it there is no need for the additional assumption of an undetectable spirit issuing undetectable commands that only allowed what was naturally allowable under the properties of the thing in question anyway.

In my opinion.
I was thinking in the more formal scientific sense. That is where one that believes in creationism develops a model that explains what we observe in the world today. By the way, "God did it" is not an explanation it is the claim. Then that model would need to be tested based upon the predictions that it makes. It is cheating a bit to form "predictions" where we already know the answers. There are countless examples in evolution where new discoveries could be used to test the theory. When scientists made new discoveries there were often new chances to test evolution. In fact creationists use to welcome these new discoveries. When DNA was beginning to be sequenced the attitude of creationists was "just you wait, DNA will prove you wrong". But it didn't. It is now the strongest evidence for evolution.

This is actually an attempt to help creationists. They always want to claim that their ideas are scientific too and this is an attempt them to do scientific tests on their beliefs. Right now either fear is the problem or there may be no tests that creationism has not already failed.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
FYI @Messianic Israelite you should take a look at this...

An Index to Creationist Claims (talkorigins.org)

Notice that it was last updated 16 years ago. So far, all you're doing is repeating old creationist arguments that have been done to death and have had absolutely no impact on science. Therefore, I recommend that before you post more about evolution, first look through the above index. If you see your argument in there, you can safely conclude that it's not only very old, but scientifically irrelevant as well.

Maybe some of what you post seems new to you, but most folks here have seen it all countless times before.
Beat me to it! :thumbsup:
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
See this is where TOEism goes astray...it refuses to answer the fundamental philosophical questions...

1. Where did we come from? (what are the origins of the big bang...which actually strongly supports creationism btw)
2.Why are we here? I say because God wants to share himself with His creation...you say, I have no philosophical reason
3. Where are we going? I say we will return to the original glory that was this earth before sin. You say, nowhere...I got in the ground...kaput!
Do you not see how deeply flawed your TOEism argument really is philosophically? You are absolutely buying a lottery ticket in a lottery that is a Ponzi scheme!
The TOE isn't meant to answer philosophical questions. It's meant to explain how the diversity of life on earth came about. Perhaps that is where your confusion lies.
If it turns out that I am right, you lose. If you are right, you still lose...so who has the better odds here? I'm certain that philosophically the Christians odds are always going to be better simply because the opposing view of TOE do not have any possibility of an outcome where there is life after death. The Christian Bible very specifically states, unless you believe and follow Jesus, you are lost. There are no free passes for those who have been exposed to the gospel and intentionally/willfully deny it.
In order to determine some odds here, we'd need to do some math. I don't see any math.

You seem to have made the mistake of betting on Pascal's Wager, as though there are only two choices when in actuality thousands of different god(s) have been proposed to exist. In other words, it's not a 50/50 shot here, as you seem to suggest.

What I have found is that its at this point that TOEists bring out the morality argument...so if there is a God, why does he allow the rape or untoward death of children! That is the most often pathway these arguments head down. My Grandfather was an evolutionist, he always refused to believe in God because he could not bring himself to allow for the possibility that the answer to the question of evil towards young children is, Satan!
The TOE doesn't make any morality arguments.

It sounds like your grandfather's beliefs didn't have have much to do with his acceptance of science, but more to do with the way Christianity attempts to explain humanity. The TOE doesn't speak to "evil." That's a Christian thing.

Philosophically, Christians have an explanation for evil in this world...we have a resource that comprehensively explains it. What do evolutionists put it down to exactly...trial and error? I put it to TOEists that is an absurd argument because over the course of written history, have we improved? At what point in the millions of years cycle will we actually see an improvement?
I think your argument is absurd because it seems to be based on some premise where the TOE makes morality arguments. It doesn't. It's the scientific explanation for the diversity of life on earth.

You are confusing a lot of different things here.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
Because it's not a hypothesis.

It offers no explanation. It offers no testability. It offers no model at all.

It's just a bare claim. And a religious one at that.
That is because hypothesis are not tests, nor models ………….if you whant tests ask for test, if you want complete models, then go to the literature (nobody from a forum will ever have time to develop a complete model)


Hypothesis are just guesses (claims as you call them)


The reason why I think that life is designed is because

1 life (self replication) has many building blocks (aminoacids)

2 they are organized in a specific pattern (such that most other patterns would fail)

3 there is nothing in the laws of nature that force the building blocks to organize themselves on those patterns

I think that 1,2 and 3 are likely to be true given the evidence.

And anything that has 1,2 and 3 is probably designed.


This is testable and falsifiable, any of these 3 points could be proven wrong tomorrow, what else do you want?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Jajaja ok provide an example of a hypothesis that is not a claim

A claim is just a statement expressed with high level of certainty, as if what it expresses is an established fact.

A hypothesis is a proposed explanation which may or may not be accurate and which requires further testing and experiment. And the way to do that testing and experimenting, is included in the hypothesis as it makes testable predictions.

Insofar as there even are claims in science, then claims follow the testing and experimenting of a hypothesis.

First a set of data / observations is identified within a certain scope, which requires some explanation.
Then a hypothesis is formulated as a proposed explanation.
Then that hypothesis is tested. The results are analyzed and a conclusion follows.
That conclusion might be called a "claim", but even then it doesn't really express the same kind of certainty as the claims you have been trying to pass of here as your supposed "hypothesis".


Hopefully now you understand the difference.
I don't have high hopes though.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
That is because hypothesis are not tests, nor models

Nobody said otherwise.
What people are telling you, and what dictionary would also tell you, is that the hypothesis itself would have to include ways to test it. It has to make testable predictions that can be tested.

Without such, it's not a hypothesis.

………….if you whant tests ask for test, if you want complete models, then go to the literature (nobody from a forum will ever have time to develop a complete model)

The OP is asking for those models to be posted here. If there are models of creation (of whatever flavor) that you think are valid, then the OP is asking you to post it here.


Hypothesis are just guesses (claims as you call them)

No.

The reason why I think that life is designed is because

1 life (self replication) has many building blocks (aminoacids)

Everything has building blocks.

2 they are organized in a specific pattern (such that most other patterns would fail)

Everything is organized in specific patterns.

3 there is nothing in the laws of nature that force the building blocks to organize themselves on those patterns

Chemistry and physics create patterns all the time.
And that these processes quite happily and easily are capable of having the building blocks of life form spontaneously has been known since the 50s.

I think that 1,2 and 3 are likely to be true given the evidence.

And anything that has 1,2 and 3 is probably designed.


I don't know. You haven't given us a model of design that makes testable predictions.
So how can anything be evidence of it?

Evidence are those things that either support or disprove a testable model.
Thus without a testable model, data is just data and not evidence.

You will have to give us a testable model first.
Got any?

This is testable and falsifiable

It's not. It's just an assertion.
Models are testable and falsifiable. You haven't given us any model.

, any of these 3 points could be proven wrong tomorrow, what else do you want?

What I want is for you to first post the testable model that you think is supported by those 3 points.
Bare assertions will not do.

I can just as easily declare that those 3 points disprove creation.
And it would be just as meaningless unless a testable model of creation is presented.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
A claim is just a statement expressed with high level of certainty, as if what it expresses is an established fact.

A hypothesis is a proposed explanation which may or may not be accurate and which requires further testing and experiment. And the way to do that testing and experimenting, is included in the hypothesis as it makes testable predictions.

Insofar as there even are claims in science, then claims follow the testing and experimenting of a hypothesis.

First a set of data / observations is identified within a certain scope, which requires some explanation.
Then a hypothesis is formulated as a proposed explanation.
Then that hypothesis is tested. The results are analyzed and a conclusion follows.
That conclusion might be called a "claim", but even then it doesn't really express the same kind of certainty as the claims you have been trying to pass of here as your supposed "hypothesis".


Hopefully now you understand the difference.
I don't have high hopes though.


you forgot to answer to my comment

Jajaja ok provide an example of a hypothesis that is not a claim


A claim is just a statement expressed with high level of certainty,
Says who? // I am not asserting to have high degree od certanity…. So in any case by your definition my alleged claim is not a claim
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
N

don't know. You haven't given us a model of design that makes testable predictions.
So how can anything be evidence of it?

Evidence are those things that either support or disprove a testable model.
Thus without a testable model, data is just data and not evidence.

You will have to give us a testable model first.
Got any?

d.
Ok you didn’t explicitly disagree with any of my 3 points, so I will assume that you grant them, if you ever explicitly deny any of those 3 points, I will correct my assumptions.

My prediction are

1 all self replicating molecules (cells) would have those 3 points , this should be true with all current self replicating organisms and those that could in theory exist. You can falsify it by finding a self replicating organism (real or hypothetical and realistic) that lacks any of these 3 points.

2 you wont find anything real or hypothetical and realistic, that has all 3 points that is not designed, you can falsify it by providing an example of something known not to be designed that has all 3 points.

(with my 3 points I simply tried to summarized the concept of specified complexity, for more information reed the literature that defines and explains this concept.)


Now it´s your turn, please provide your testable predictions and potencial falsifications of your “nature did it” assertion……
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Intelligent Design as a Theory of Information: Dembski, William A.

Read the paper, quote the specific point (s) of disagreement, and explain why you think the author is wrong

If you disagree with “everything” then quote your single most important point of disagreement.
Before we go into the details, can we agree upon some meta points?
- Dembski never published his "hypothesis" in the scientific literature, nor did he attempt to.
- ID has been legally declared a pseudo science in Kitzmiller v. Dover.
- CSI is not a biological hypothesis and does not explain nor attempt to explain the diversity of life.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Before we go into the details, can we agree upon some meta points?
- Dembski never published his "hypothesis" in the scientific literature, nor did he attempt to.
- ID has been legally declared a pseudo science in Kitzmiller v. Dover.
- CSI is not a biological hypothesis and does not explain nor attempt to explain the diversity of life.
CSI is just a term, it´s just a concept, it is not meant to be a hypothesis.

Complex = Many Codes (or units)

Specified = many patterns are possible according to the laws of nature, only 1 or few combinations have a meaning or a function

As for the other 2 questions, I don’t know the answer
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
CSI is just a term, it´s just a concept, it is not meant to be a hypothesis.
Then why did you bring it up when asked for a model?

So, I guess we can come to a conclusion. There is no alternative model to the ToE. Neither in the relevant literature nor could anyone here propose one.
That also means that trying to punch holes in the Toe with personal incredulity is not only fallacious but also worthless.

Creationist need to do their homework. Put up or shut up.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
you forgot to answer to my comment

I didn't. I just choose to instead give you an explanation as I figured that would be clearer and easier.


Says who?

The definitions of the words "claim" and "hypothesis".

// I am not asserting to have high degree od certanity…

Here's what you said:

My hypothesis is that life was caused by an intelligent designer.


That's a statement of fact.
It holds no level of uncertainty.
It provides no model that makes predictions.
It provides no testability.
It provides no verifiability.

It's just a "just so" statement.
It's, in spirit of my explanation, a conclusion but without the stuff that needs to come before that conclusion, which shows how you concluded it.

. So in any case by your definition my alleged claim is not a claim

The stuff you actually write, says otherwise.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Ok you didn’t explicitly disagree with any of my 3 points, so I will assume that you grant them, if you ever explicitly deny any of those 3 points, I will correct my assumptions.

I disagreed with point 3 by saying that chemistry and physics organizes "building blocks" in patterns all the time.

And if your "argument" is that we don't know of chemical or physical processes that organize the building blocks of life into living things, and therefor life is designed (and that indeed seems to be your argument) then all you are doing is making an argument from ignorance straight out the gates.


My prediction are

1 all self replicating molecules (cells) would have those 3 points , this should be true with all current self replicating organisms and those that could in theory exist. You can falsify it by finding a self replicating organism (real or hypothetical and realistic) that lacks any of these 3 points.

2 you wont find anything real or hypothetical and realistic, that has all 3 points that is not designed, you can falsify it by providing an example of something known not to be designed that has all 3 points.

(with my 3 points I simply tried to summarized the concept of specified complexity, for more information reed the literature that defines and explains this concept.)

You haven't provided a model of "design" from which these supposed "predictions" naturally flow.
So these aren't predictions. These are, at this point, just claims again.

I said I didn't have high hopes of you understanding what was being said.
It seems I was right.

Now it´s your turn, please provide your testable predictions and potencial falsifications of your “nature did it” assertion……

This thread is called "what would refute creationism".

By all means, for the sake of the spirit of this thread, let's just assume that science has no clue.
 
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