What would be wrong with being wrong?

[Revoltingest]

@Astosolece As another example, Revoltingest is a Bokononist and I’m a failure at promoting the Anguish Languish, and yet he has been my supreme god for at least a few hours now, and he answers all my prayers, so you see? Anything is possible.

Plying me with compliments, eh.....I bask in their glory!

 

[Astosolece]

How do you get people of countless diverse cultures to agree on fundamental questions regarding existence/purpose? You don't. It's not possible.



The idea that Humanity needs to progress to a state of global unity/harmony is simply a secular offshoot of religious eschatology.

It can be added to the pile of religious views about which you posed the question 'what if we're all wrong'?

So to your thinking, the idea that people can reach a state where we rely on the knowledge that we have gained through science, and the possibilities that even more knowledge would offer, is ludicrous? Wishful thinking at its worst? Aside from Quakers and aboriginal tribes, science has already reached more people than any one religion has. I see it as an evolutionary process of its own.

 

[Astosolece]

Unfortunately, you've missed the whole point of theism. It's not about 'knowing' that God exists, based on 'evidence'. It's about the possibility that a God of our choosing could exist, and the positive results that such a possibility affords us in our lives if we choose to trust in it as a reality. Waiting to "know" is a fool's errand. Theism is about faith, not knowledge.

A lot of self-proclaimed theists make this same mistake, and wrongly think that faith is pretending that they 'know' God exists and what God wants of them, and of us. But this is a lie, and whenever we humans start living by our lies bad things tend to happen. Bad things happen because we try to force reality to comply with our false understanding of it. No human can know if "God" exists beyond their own intellectual conception. We simply do not possess the means required to verify the existence or nature of a "God" beyond our idealizations. So don't let the lies of these misguided "theists" send you down the same misguided path that they are on: thinking that you will ever be able to 'know' that God exists, or know that It doesn't. Theism is a proposition based on our UNknowing. And is therefor a faith-option that we have available to us if we want or need it.

I looked up theism. So it’s a broad belief in the existence of God. Without rejection of revelation, as it says.

 

[Astosolece]

Are you doing anything to try to help solve the problem? If so, what? Are you looking for better ways to help?

If you’re looking for ways to spread your idea that we could all be wrong, here’s my all-purpose strategy for spreading ideas:
- Continually improve my own practice of what I’m promoting.
- Learn to be a better friend to more people.
- Learn to tell stories that help people learn to love and practice the ideas.
- Help with the growth and spread of healthier, happier and more loving communities.
- Bring all that up for discussion sometimes.
- (joke)Pray to @Revoltingest If They aren’t available, pray to @PopeADope .(/joke)

As could be expected, there’s someone out there who only heard one thing, “what if we’re all wrong”, and got bent out of shape and started shaking his finger at me. I guess that’s ok too. What am I doing to solve the problem? I haven’t done anything, I started a conversation. I think conversations are important, they help us understand each other. But there are people who aren’t interested in conversations. They know everything they ever need to know about this life, and the next, and the book closes there.

 

[Nimos]

Well that guy is very passionate, isn’t he? I can feel his frustration coming through his voice. I read that scientists estimate that religion has set us back ate least a thousand years in the advancement of our technological development. But at the same time, while trying to thwart efforts at educating people about the world and universe as we have come to know it, religions are still more than happy to use new technology to weaponize their own faith against that of others.

You need to have seen the whole debate to know why he seems fairly "passionate" or angry. You can see it here.

In short the reason he is angry have something to do with him telling those that arranged the debate that he wouldn't do it, if there were any form of segregation between men and women, which they didn't live up to, so I think he goes into the debate already being fairly annoyed. But you can go 32 minutes in to hear it. So its not because he is a nasty or angry person normally as far as I have seen, but he doesn't want to support the non sense and they tried to pull it off anyway, so he goes into the debate already having been pissed off.

I think the main issue with religion is that it can confuse people, because if you hold a belief in God having created all, that Noas flood is correct, that God created us complete and all that. You will constantly run into problems with science and a lot of people can figure out how to believe in God and at the same time do science.

It doesn't mean that this can't affect them when thinking about rational things, like their position on abortion might be affected by their beliefs or something else. But for a lot of people especially the more extreme, that for instance think that Earth is 6000 years old, they are going to run into problems with any field of science where this is relevant, so somehow they constantly have to try to make all these things fit together, because if Earth is 6000 years old, because you can calculate that based on the bible then its obviously true, then the only other solution must be that all the different fields of science which know this ain't the case, must be wrong. So to me at least I think its reduces some peoples ability to think rational, because they need to spend so much time researching and trying to fit stuff together that just wont. Rather than spending their time learning what there is actually evidence for. And then all this conspiracy starts, that science is just another religion and they are trying to do this and that. And then you have to fight people that believe the Earth is flat as well, and that this is obviously a conspiracy as well, and when you ask who exactly is part of this, its logically follows that it must be everyone that argue against them, that these are either being fooled or that they are part of it.

I actually think that the biggest problem is not whether or not people believe non sense, but that it can influence their rationality when it comes to issues that actually affect other people lives.

.

 

[PureX]

I looked up theism. So it’s a broad belief in the existence of God. Without rejection of revelation, as it says.

"Theism" is a branch of philosophy based on the proposition that "God/gods" exist, and thereby have some effect on our experience of being. It can be debated, and argued, but not proven. This proposal can be adopted, subjectively defined, and even practiced as a way of life, and although a lot of people then take the results of that practice as their "proof", it does not logically stand as proof of it's truthfulness, but only of it's functionality. Though it does stand as a logical (practical) reason for adopting the position on faith.

I'm puzzled by your response, however, as I don't see what "revelation" has to do with it. Can you explain?

 

[Augustus]

So to your thinking, the idea that people can reach a state where we rely on the knowledge that we have gained through science, and the possibilities that even more knowledge would offer, is ludicrous? Wishful thinking at its worst? Aside from Quakers and aboriginal tribes, science has already reached more people than any one religion has. I see it as an evolutionary process of its own.

And among the things science has taught is that humans are not rational animals, and didn't evolve to live as one big happy family.

There is also no scientific reason to believe that accumulation of knowledge leads to global harmony. It's simply wishful thinking.

The idea that salvation lies in the perfection of Humanity through knowledge is just a modern form of Gnosticism. The secular West is still profoundly influenced by Christian ideas, although most people don't realise it.

Most have convinced themselves their worldview is universal and based on the neutral application of reason, rather than being the product of millennia of cultural evolution specific to only a fraction of the world's population. As such they continue to be surprised when others don't seem to share their enthusiasm for global unity based around Western secular humanistic principles.

 

[Astosolece]

"Theism" is a branch of philosophy based on the proposition that "God/gods" exist, and thereby have some effect on our experience of being. It can be debated, and argued, but not proven. This proposal can be adopted, subjectively defined, and even practiced as a way of life, and although a lot of people then take the results of that practice as their "proof", it does not logically stand as proof of it's truthfulness, but only of it's functionality. Though it does stand as a logical (practical) reason for adopting the position on faith.

I'm puzzled by your response, however, as I don't see what "revelation" has to do with it. Can you explain?

That’s just what it said in the dictionary. And don’t get me wrong, it’s not important for me to “make” anyone else wrong about their beliefs. I’m puzzled how people can hold tight to a fixed belief when there is so much information that wasn’t available to the public 100 years ago. Things are moving fast, compared to the last 5000 years, lightning fast. But regardless of belief, all people essentially want the same thing, food, shelter, safety for themselves and their families, a future of some kind to look forward to. I’m ok if this life is all there is. It’s been hard, can’t deny, but it’s also been more than I could have dreamed for. I guess I’m just happy to have been here and been able to be a part of something so extraordinary as the simple state of being alive. The odds of which are astronomically NOT in your favor. So to me the strife over religion is really dishonoring the gift of life in the first place.

 

[PureX]

That’s just what it said in the dictionary. And don’t get me wrong, it’s not important for me to “make” anyone else wrong about their beliefs. I’m puzzled how people can hold tight to a fixed belief when there is so much information that wasn’t available to the public 100 years ago. Things are moving fast, compared to the last 5000 years, lightning fast. But regardless of belief, all people essentially want the same thing, food, shelter, safety for themselves and their families, a future of some kind to look forward to. I’m ok if this life is all there is. It’s been hard, can’t deny, but it’s also been more than I could have dreamed for. I guess I’m just happy to have been here and been able to be a part of something so extraordinary as the simple state of being alive. The odds of which are astronomically NOT in your favor. So to me the strife over religion is really dishonoring the gift of life in the first place.

I think the problem is that humans are more than just clever animals. We are animals, transitioning: 'transcending' ourselves. Animals well on our way to becoming not just physical biological life forms, but metaphysical, self-aware beings. So the old genetically encoded regime of thoughts and behaviors have become quite problematic for us. And we are struggling to figure out what to let go of and what to hold onto from our animal encoding, while we're also trying to uncover what it will mean for us to be 'fully human' (that is fully 'metaphysically extant').

That is if we survive the transition.

 

[KelseyR]

I really hate it when people instantly call claims to possessing the one true belief arrogant and egotistical. What happens when a belief really does measure up? I'm running into this problem on this site. Every time I try to share the proof you want I get booed or outright forbidden from discussing it.

I can actually do all the things you talk about in your post.

p.s. Happy birthday!

 

[Spirit of Light]

I really hate it when people instantly call claims to possessing the one true belief arrogant and egotistical. What happens when a belief really does measure up? I'm running into this problem on this site. Every time I try to share the proof you want I get booed or outright forbidden from discussing it.

Would you like to share your proof then you are of course welcome to do so But I think some members think you made a big thing out of it, and did not yet (to my knowledge) give the proof you say you do have? But please if you can prove your claim I think many here will read it and make a good discussion about your findings.

 

[KelseyR]

Would you like to share your proof then you are of course welcome to do so But I think some members think you made a big thing out of it, and did not yet (to my knowledge) give the proof you say you do have? But please if you can prove your claim I think many here will read it and make a good discussion about your findings.

Nope. Quintessence forbade discussion and threatened to monitor PM activity too. Then he disavowed: trying to make me seem the culprit in a somewhat haughty and insolent tone.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Nope. Quintessence forbade discussion and threatened to monitor PM activity too. Then he disavowed: trying to make me seem the culprit- in a somewhat haughty and insolent tone.

I don't know what your proof was/is but maybe it started wrong according to how you presented it in the first place? The way I know this forum, we most of the time we just make a post directly about our views or wisdom, instead of saying it must pass the mods first before it can be discussed. Maybe people were thrown off by it?

 

[Astosolece]

I think the problem is that humans are more than just clever animals. We are animals, transitioning: 'transcending' ourselves. Animals well on our way to becoming not just physical biological life forms, but metaphysical, self-aware beings. So the old genetically encoded regime of thoughts and behaviors have become quite problematic for us. And we are struggling to figure out what to let go of and what to hold onto from our animal encoding, while we're also trying to uncover what it will mean for us to be 'fully human' (that is fully 'metaphysically extant').

That is if we survive the transition.

You put that really well, exactly! And yes, if we survive. Well, I know I won’t live to see any worldwide breakthroughs, but how do you plan for the next 500 years. Or why bother?

 

[Astosolece]

I really hate it when people instantly call claims to possessing the one true belief arrogant and egotistical. What happens when a belief really does measure up? I'm running into this problem on this site. Every time I try to share the proof you want I get booed or outright forbidden from discussing it.

I can actually do all the things you talk about in your post.

p.s. Happy birthday!

I admire your enthusiasm. Bring it..

 

[Astosolece]

You put that really well, exactly! And yes, if we survive. Well, I know I won’t live to see any worldwide breakthroughs, but how do you plan for the next 500 years. Or why bother?

I know there are entities that are planning for the next 500 years, but I don’t think most of us are included in their designs. But I’ll leave the conspiracies at the door. This isn’t the time.

 

[Astosolece]

I admire your enthusiasm. Bring it..

And thnQ for the birthday wishes

 

[PureX]

You put that really well, exactly! And yes, if we survive. Well, I know I won’t live to see any worldwide breakthroughs, but how do you plan for the next 500 years. Or why bother?

We aren't going to be able to plan until the majority of us chooses to recognize and accept our metaphysical nature. The solutions are all around us, and we are easily smart enough to recognize and implement them. What we currently lack is the self-awareness and the will to put the animal instincts in their place, and move on into a collective human agenda. It may well take another 500 years for us to do that. Or, as we know, we may destroy ourselves before we achieve that milestone.

 

[80s fashion girl]

To answer the question, I can only answer for myself: realizing that after much study, research, and contemplation, the beliefs of the religion I followed were flawed, and therefore wrong.

There is nothing wrong with being wrong. While the initial reaction is sadness (of loss of the fantasy ideal), there is more internal peace in accepting what is true, and not what is believed (or brainwashed) to be true.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Whats wrong with being wrong?

It's a bit like loving the darkness rather than the light.
see john 3