What would be evidence that God exists?

[Trailblazer]

Correct. And your premises are not true. Which is not the same as being false.

What is correct is that I cannot prove my premises are true.
But that does not mean my premises are not true.
They could be either true or false.

What is correct is that you cannot prove that my premises are false.
So that means you cannot claim they are false.
They could be either true or false.

 

[CG Didymus]

God cannot write scriptures because God has no hands.

So again you contradict the Bible. And of course, I presume, the Bible is wrong and you, the Baha'i, is right?
Belshazzar's feast, or the story of the writing on the wall (chapter 5 in the Book of Daniel) tells how Belshazzar holds a great feast and drinks from the vessels that had been looted in the destruction of the First Temple. A hand appears and writes on the wall. The terrified Belshazzar calls for his wise men, but they are unable to read the writing. The queen advises him to send for Daniel, renowned for his wisdom. Daniel reminds Belshazzar that his father Nebuchadnezzar, when he became arrogant, was thrown down until he learned that God has sovereignty over the kingdom of men. Belshazzar had likewise blasphemed God, and so God sent this hand. Daniel then reads the message and interprets it: God has numbered Belshazzar's days, he has been weighed and found wanting, and his kingdom will be given to the Medes and the Persians.

That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean (Babylonian) king was killed, and Darius the Mede received the kingdom.

After giving the 10 Commandments verbally, God said to Moses, “Come up to Me on the mountain and be there; and I will give you tablets of stone, and the law and commandments which I have written, that you may teach them” (Exodus 24:12).
After 40 days on Mount Sinai, God finished speaking to Moses. “He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God” (Exodus 31:18).

 

[ppp]

Correct. And your premises are not true. Which is not the same as being false.

Unless you can prove that my premises are false all you have is a personal opinion, a bald assertion.

What has this got to do with what I said, Trailblazer? Did I assert that your claims were false? Where?

 

[ppp]

What is correct is that I cannot prove my premises are true.
But that does not mean my premises are not true.
They could be either true or false.

That is exactly what not true is. Not being able to demonstrate that your premises are true means that they are not true.

Do you understand that 'not true' and 'false' are not the same thing?Do you understand that 'not true' and 'false' are not the same thing?Do you understand that 'not true' and 'false' are not the same thing?

 

[Trailblazer]

So again you contradict the Bible. And of course, I presume, the Bible is wrong and you, the Baha'i, is right?
Belshazzar's feast, or the story of the writing on the wall (chapter 5 in the Book of Daniel) tells how Belshazzar holds a great feast and drinks from the vessels that had been looted in the destruction of the First Temple. A hand appears and writes on the wall.

Gimme a break.... A hand appears and writes on the wall......Sorry, I could not read any further
God does not write on any walls, this is sheer superstition, anthropomorphism....
And no, I did not get this idea from the Baha'i Writings, I deduced it from logic.
God is Spirit, and Spirit has no hands so God cannot write.

I know what people say "God can do anything" but God cannot do what it is not within God's nature to do.
For example, God cannot become a man because if God became a man God would no longer be God.

 

[Trailblazer]

After giving the 10 Commandments verbally, God said to Moses, “Come up to Me on the mountain and be there; and I will give you tablets of stone, and the law and commandments which I have written, that you may teach them” (Exodus 24:12).
After 40 days on Mount Sinai, God finished speaking to Moses. “He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God” (Exodus 31:18).

More anthropomorphism.........
God could not hand Moses the Tablets because God has no hands.
God cannot write because God has no fingers.
Imo.

I could say more about the Bible but I would get banned from this forum.
All I will say is thank God for the Baha'i Faith.
I do not like religion but if I have to have a religion there is only one I would ever consider.

 

[ppp]

I know what people say "God can do anything" but God cannot do what it is not within God's nature to do.

Setting aside your implicit claim that you know what is and is not in God's nature. Is your god not responsible for the existence of the physical universe? Manifesting a hand seems like child's play in comparison. I think you are straining at a gnat after swallowing the camel.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is not what a Baha'i can do under Baha'i Law, nor should they try to, that would be prolteszing.

You must be psychic Tony. A minute ago I had picked out that exact sentence you just responded to and I was going to say something similar to what you said, but you saved me the trouble,

And all Baha'is keep all the laws? I don't think so. They are supposed to keep all the laws, but they can and do break some of them now and again I'm sure. But of course, never the law against proselytizing. That would be wrong. What Baha'is do is "teach".

Ye have received a share of the light of truth, ye have enjoyed a portion of those blessings that endure forever; and therefore, as a returning of thanks for this bounty, rest ye not for a moment, sit ye not silent, carry to men’s ears the glad tidings of the Kingdom, spread far and wide the Word of God.” Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, pp. 33-34

“Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds." Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 278

“O ye beloved of God! Repose not yourselves on your couches, nay bestir yourselves as soon as ye recognize your Lord, the Creator, and hear of the things which have befallen Him, and hasten to His assistance. Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 330

“Gird up the loins of thine endeavor, that haply thou mayest guide thy neighbor to the law of God, the Most Merciful. Such an act, verily, excelleth all other acts in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High. Such must be thy steadfastness in the Cause of God, that no earthly thing whatsoever will have the power to deter thee from thy duty. Though the powers of earth be leagued against thee, though all men dispute with thee, thou must remain unshaken.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339​

I found these quotes on a Baha'i Forum. I scrolled down and guess who I found? Yes, you and Tony and something about Tony getting his 15th warning? About what? I know it couldn't be for proselytizing. Baha'is don't do that. (Actually, I don't care if it was. I want you guys to tell me what you believe)

 

[Trailblazer]

Setting aside your implicit claim that you know what is and is not in God's nature. Is your god not responsible for the existence of the physical universe? Manifesting a hand seems like child's play in comparison. I think you are straining at a gnat after swallowing the camel.

It is not about comparisons of what is hard and what is easy.... It is about what is God's job and what isn't.... It is not God's job to write scriptures and that is why God doesn't waste time on it.... God has more important things to do so God delegated that job to His Staff.

 

[Trailblazer]

I found these quotes on a Baha'i Forum. I scrolled down and guess who I found? Yes, you and Tony and something about Tony getting his 15th warning? About what? I know it couldn't be for proselytizing. Baha'is don't do that. (Actually, I don't care if it was. I want you guys to tell me what you believe)

I can only tell you what Baha'u'llah enjoined us to do, because I do not pay that much attention to what the UHJ says; so when it comes to yakking on forums, this is the quote I go by, which is not all that different from what Jesus said about shaking the dust off one's feet if people reject the message.

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289

 

[Trailblazer]

What has this got to do with what I said, Trailblazer? Did I assert that your claims were false? Where?

In red below is where you asserted that my premises are false.

Trailblazer said: In general, circular arguments are valid, and if their premises are true, then they're sound. However, circular arguments are fallacious and therefore, bad arguments. Validity and soundness are properties of deductive arguments.Jan 30, 2018

Joe W said: Correct. And your premises are not true. Which is not the same as being false.

#139 Joe W, Today at 7:13 PM

 

[ppp]

In red below is where you asserted that my premises are false.

Trailblazer said: In general, circular arguments are valid, and if their premises are true, then they're sound. However, circular arguments are fallacious and therefore, bad arguments. Validity and soundness are properties of deductive arguments.Jan 30, 2018

Joe W said: Correct. And your premises are not true. Which is not the same as being false.

All I see is my saying that your premises are not true. I do not see any thing that says they are false.

 

[CG Didymus]

More anthropomorphism.........
God could not hand Moses the Tablets because God has no hands.
God cannot write because God has no fingers.
Imo.

I could say more about the Bible but I would get banned from this forum.
All I will say is thank God for the Baha'i Faith.
I do not like religion but if I have to have a religion there is only one I would ever consider.

Well don't tell me what you think of the Bible, but what does Baha'u'llah say about it? It really seems like Baha'is don't believe any of the events described in the Bible as being true. Yet, Baha'is believe the God of the Bible? And that the Bible is the "Word" of God?

Now I question and doubt those stories too. But then I also question and doubt the main character in those stories... the God of the Bible. I much more easily understand the Jews and the Christians that take it literally. To them it is the "Word" of God. What it says, however improbable, is what happened. Baha'is, though, believe the God and the prophets and the prophecies of the Bible, just not the stories about the God and the prophets in the Bible?

 

[Trailblazer]

That is exactly what not true is. Not being able to demonstrate that your premises are true means that they are not true.

No, it does not mean that. It means that they could either be true or false.

Being able to demonstrate truth or falsehood has nothing to do with what is true or false.,
Reality simply exists and reality is not dependent upon our ability to prove it.

e.g. 1 If God exists, God exists, even though that can never be proven.
e.g. 2 If Messengers of God exist, Messengers of God exist, even though that can never be proven.

These are beliefs which can be either true or false.

Do you understand that 'not true' and 'false' are not the same thing?Do you understand that 'not true' and 'false' are not the same thing?Do you understand that 'not true' and 'false' are not the same thing?

Within the context of a logical argument, something is either true or false. If it is not true it is false. If it is false it is not true. These are mutually exclusive.

 

[Trailblazer]

All I see is my saying that your premises are not true. I do not see any thing that says they are false.

So I see, they are not true, as far as we know right now, but they are not false either?
So if they are not false they could be true.

The hundred-dollar question is how you think you can know that they are not true?

 

[ppp]

No, it does not mean that. It means that they could either be true or false.

Incorrect.
Take the statement, 'There is a mug on my desk.'

It is the reality that in the true state of things, there is either a mug on my desk, or there is not a mug my desk. p or not-p.

But what we are evaluation is the statement, there is a mug on my desk. Which can evaluate into

• true - the statement corresponds to demonstrable reality
• false - the statement contradicts demonstrable reality
• not true - the statement can either not be evaluated, or the statement is nonsense.

Being able to demonstrate truth or falsehood has nothing to do with what is true or false.,

Take the statement, 'There is a mug on my desk.'

According to what you just said, being able to demonstrate the truth (or falsity) of there being 'a mug on my desk' has nothing to do with the truth (or falsity) of there being a mug on my desk.

You might wish to re-work that.

 

[CG Didymus]

God does not write on any walls, this is sheer superstition, anthropomorphism....

Okay, the Bible has superstitious stories in it. The Bible writers anthropomorphized God. So what is it about the God of the Bible that Baha'is believe in? That he is real, but he has no hands. He can speak to prophets, but he didn't speak audibly to ordinary people. He didn't create Adam and Eve. He used evolution. Would you then say that the God, as described in the Bible, does not exist. He is a made up deity of an ancient people.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well don't tell me what you think of the Bible, but what does Baha'u'llah say about it? It really seems like Baha'is don't believe any of the events described in the Bible as being true. Yet, Baha'is believe the God of the Bible? And that the Bible is the "Word" of God?

Baha'u'llah wrote to the Muslims that the Bible is God's most great testimony amongst His creatures:

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! “How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

But then we have to ask what He meant by testimony. Since Baha'u'llah did not specify what He meant, we have to refer to other sources such as what Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi wrote about the Bible, as I have posted to you in the past.

Now I question and doubt those stories too. But then I also question and doubt the main character in those stories... the God of the Bible. I much more easily understand the Jews and the Christians that take it literally. To them it is the "Word" of God. What it says, however improbable, is what happened. Baha'is, though, believe the God and the prophets and the prophecies of the Bible, just not the stories about the God and the prophets in the Bible?

Not all Jews or Christians interpret all the stories in the Bible literally.
I cannot say what all the other Baha'is believe but of we go by the Baha'i Writings, we will believe that God and the prophets and the prophecies of the Bible are true, but the stories about God are not all true.

 

[ppp]

So I see, they are not true, as far as we know right now, but they are not false either?

Correct.

So if they are not false they could be true.

Both not true and not false mean that the question cannot be evaluated. So there is no way to tell if the statement could be true. *** EDIT: At this point I was only talking about the God claim. ***

The hundred-dollar question is how you think you can know that they are not true?

You mean, how do I think that I can know that the statement [cannot currently be evaluated]? By examining the claim and the evidence presented. Just like I might examine the claim that there is a mug on the desk, or the claim that Aliens took Jane Fonda to Disney world.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is the reality that in the true state of things, there is either a mug on my desk, or there is not a mug my desk. p or not-p.

But what we are evaluation is the statement, there is a mug on my desk. Which can evaluate into

• true - the statement corresponds to demonstrable reality
• false - the statement contradicts demonstrable reality
• not true - the statement can either not be evaluated, or the statement is nonsense.

It does not matter if it can be evaluated or not. In reality, there is either a mug on your desk or not.
It does not matter if it can be evaluated or not. In reality, there is either a God or not.
It does not matter if it can be evaluated or not. In reality, there is either a Messenger of God or not.