What to be done about fundamentalist Islam? (Secular only)

[Imagist]

Given the likelihood of this thread becoming an issue with Islamic fundamentalists, I would like to request that only non-fundamentalists post on this thread. For purposes of this discussion, if you believe that any book holds inerrant truth, that humans did not evolve from apes, or that any form of sex between consenting adults is a sin, you are a fundamentalist. Non-fundamentalist religious people are welcome to post.

I have for a long time operated under the assumption that progress toward a more tolerant, rational, and humane world was inexorable. This was partially due to my narrow worldview, which only marginally included an understanding of events outside my home nation, the USA.

Within the USA, fundamentalist Christianity is dying, albeit a slower death than most reasoned people would like. Slaver is illegal. Abortion is legal. Evolution is now taught in schools, to the exclusion of religious pseudoscience. Homosexuality is legal, and in some states gays can even marry. Progress is happening, even if it takes centuries.

However, as I look at world events I see a different picture. Many parts of the world are making progress, but spreading out from the middle east is a blight that is turning the tide. Islam in itself is not the problem. Many, even most, Muslims believe that Islam is a religion of peace, and however unbased in their holy books or dogma that is, I can respect those beliefs. But a frighteningly large number of Muslims take the Quran and related texts about Muhammed at face value. The so-called "sword verses", when taken at face value, directly encourage the slaughter and/or forced conversion of non-Muslims. I realized recently that for the first time in my life as a secular person, I am actually scared of a religion.

Even the less-dangerous teachings of Islam are damaging. Islam in most forms encourages the subjugation of women. Some forms even make it near-impossible for a woman to report a rape without subjecting herself to punishment. In a recent discussion on another thread I noted that a Hadith mentioned Muhammed having sex with a nine-year-old girl. Most Muslims posting on the thread discredited the Hadith, but disturbingly, a few argued that there was nothing wrong with his having sex with a nine-year-old. And they aren't the only ones. A simple web search yields numerous cases of Muslim child marriage and pedophilia, some even sanctioned by the governments of the Islamic countries within which these atrocities occur.

My question to readers is: what can be done about this? I strongly oppose racism, bigotry, and loss of freedom of religion or due process, and I would oppose any draconian measures that violate my principles. On the other hand, tolerance policies in Europe aren't working. As the Muslim population of Europe grows, so does the number of fundamentalists trying to legislate their religion to the exclusion of others. How can we fight fundamentalism without compromising our ideals of freedom and tolerance?

I realize that some of the growth of fundamentalism is driven by western imperialism, particularly that of the United States. But removing this problem will only slow the spread of fundamentalism. The teachings of Islam in themselves have enough to drive fundamentalism.

 

[Seven]

It's definitely a tough question. All I know for sure is that we must constantly fight to keep our governments completely secular. Also we need to make sure our laws allow freedom of and from religion, but draw the line when religious expression harms others.

This is easier said than done though because fundamentalists are often the most passionate and influential lobbyists, so secularists really need to make sure that none of this lobbying goes unchallenged.

 

[kai]

we cant do a lot about it, its a kind of evolutionary process where certain societies learn to think for themselves.a slow process look at Christianity in Europe.

 

[Panda]

I think as kai said, fundamentalism is something society tends to "grow out of."

I also think that like you said it is only a small minority that ever tends to cause problems, however they often seem to be able to shout the loudest. Combine that with the modern media and it gives the picture that all Muslims are evil people which is of course ridiculous.

 

[Imagist]

I think as kai said, fundamentalism is something society tends to "grow out of."

I also think that like you said it is only a small minority that ever tends to cause problems, however they often seem to be able to shout the loudest. Combine that with the modern media and it gives the picture that all Muslims are evil people which is of course ridiculous.

While I agree that those causing problems are in the minority and that not all Muslims are evil, I disagree with the statement that the minority is small. Many countries like Saudi Arabia have been legislating fundamentalism for years, and I have seen nothing to give me the impression that they do this without the support of their population. Granted, such nations don't generally tolerate dissent, but I would think that if there were a significant dissenting group there would be some sign of their existence.

My fear is not that society won't "grow out of" Islamic fundamentalism, but that the problem will get worse before it gets better.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The more educated and well-off people are, as a population, the less likely they are the hold fundamentalist beliefs.

Knowledge and prosperity are the only real weapons against fundamentalism, which natural grows out of ignorance and poverty.

 

[Storm]

To the OP, I don't know. All I can think of is to treat them with compassion, encourage (and support) secular schooling, and try to spread democracy. Yet, these are long-term solutions to a very immediate problem. How do we morally combat terrorism? Leaving the issue of morality aside, how do we effectively combat it (without encouraging more at the same time)?

It troubles me.

While I agree that those causing problems are in the minority and that not all Muslims are evil, I disagree with the statement that the minority is small. Many countries like Saudi Arabia have been legislating fundamentalism for years, and I have seen nothing to give me the impression that they do this without the support of their population. Granted, such nations don't generally tolerate dissent, but I would think that if there were a significant dissenting group there would be some sign of their existence.

My fear is not that society won't "grow out of" Islamic fundamentalism, but that the problem will get worse before it gets better.

My knowledge of Middle Eastern politics doesn't even strike me as "adequate," but my understanding is that most of these countries have a small minority in control of an unwilling populace. Iran as described in Persepolis, for instance.

The more educated and well-off people are, as a population, the less likely they are the hold fundamentalist beliefs.

Knowledge and prosperity are the only real weapons against fundamentalism, which natural grows out of ignorance and poverty.

Yes, I agree that this is the proper long-term soultion. But again, what of the short term?

 

[kai]

To the OP, I don't know. All I can think of is to treat them with compassion, encourage (and support) secular schooling, and try to spread democracy. Yet, these are long-term solutions to a very immediate problem. How do we morally combat terrorism? Leaving the issue of morality aside, how do we effectively combat it (without encouraging more at the same time)?

It troubles me.


My knowledge of Middle Eastern politics doesn't even strike me as "adequate," but my understanding is that

most of these countries have a small minority in control of an unwilling populace.

Iran as described in Persepolis, for instance.


Yes, I agree that this is the proper long-term soultion. But again, what of the short term?

indeed and Islam seems to be the chosen method of control. or should i say the Ruling classes interpretation of Islam.

 

[Imagist]

My knowledge of Middle Eastern politics doesn't even strike me as "adequate," but my understanding is that most of these countries have a small minority in control of an unwilling populace. Iran as described in Persepolis, for instance.

Some such as Iran are more totalitarian, but Yemen and Pakistan are democratic, while in Saudi Arabia and Jordan the populations have generally high approval of their non-elected leadership (this probably due to economic factors). I find Yemen and Pakistan particularly frightening because their fundamentalist leadership was elected by a majority.

 

[Storm]

That is frightening....

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yes, I agree that this is the proper long-term soultion. But again, what of the short term?

I don't believe there are any short-term solutions to eliminating fundamentalism. Any short-term activities would only be towards achieving a long-term solution. It would take a generation, or two, to overcome these levels of ignorance and poverty.

 

[Imagist]

That is frightening....

If it's any comfort, Pakistan has had moderate leadership in the past, so it's quite possible that the election of their current, more fundamentalist leadership is merely a reaction to recent American imperialism rather than a longer-term issue.

 

[Imagist]

I don't believe there are any short-term solutions to eliminating fundamentalism. Any short-term activities would only be towards achieving a long-term solution. It would take a generation, or two, to overcome these levels of ignorance and poverty.

I don't think that the issues are ignorance and poverty. As evidence I present that Saudi Arabians are actually very well-educated and rich on average. Ignorance and poverty also don't apply to many of the fundamentalists living in Europe.

The real issue seems to be indoctrination.

 

[kai]

I don't think that the issues are ignorance and poverty. As evidence I present that Saudi Arabians are actually very well-educated and rich on average. Ignorance and poverty also don't apply to many of the fundamentalists living in Europe.

The real issue seems to be indoctrination.

Yes ,i think the Saudis use Islam to keep the status quo.

 

[Makaveli]

The same strategy applied to the Soviet Union and communism in general: contain it until it dies.

 

[Imagist]

The same strategy applied to the Soviet Union and communism in general: contain it until it dies.

It's worth noting that some of the most horrifying atrocities in history were committed in the name of containment. See the genocides in South America.

 

[Makaveli]

It's worth noting that some of the most horrifying atrocities in history were committed in the name of containment. See the genocides in South America.

It's not a perfect solution, obviously, and there will be pitfalls. America fought costly wars in Korea and Vietnam, the Soviets in Afghanistan, not to mention the multitudes of smaller conflicts and covert operations. And, as you say, crimes against humanity.

However, the cure is not as bad as the disease, and I have the hope, vain as it may be, that we live in a civilized enough age to maintain the level of decorum we expect of the rest of the world.

 

[jrbogie]

Given the likelihood of this thread becoming an issue with Islamic fundamentalists, I would like to request that only non-fundamentalists post on this thread. For purposes of this discussion, if you believe that any book holds inerrant truth, that humans did not evolve from apes, or that any form of sex between consenting adults is a sin, you are a fundamentalist. Non-fundamentalist religious people are welcome to post.

I have for a long time operated under the assumption that progress toward a more tolerant, rational, and humane world was inexorable. This was partially due to my narrow worldview, which only marginally included an understanding of events outside my home nation, the USA.

Within the USA, fundamentalist Christianity is dying, albeit a slower death than most reasoned people would like. Slaver is illegal. Abortion is legal. Evolution is now taught in schools, to the exclusion of religious pseudoscience. Homosexuality is legal, and in some states gays can even marry. Progress is happening, even if it takes centuries.

However, as I look at world events I see a different picture. Many parts of the world are making progress, but spreading out from the middle east is a blight that is turning the tide. Islam in itself is not the problem. Many, even most, Muslims believe that Islam is a religion of peace, and however unbased in their holy books or dogma that is, I can respect those beliefs. But a frighteningly large number of Muslims take the Quran and related texts about Muhammed at face value. The so-called "sword verses", when taken at face value, directly encourage the slaughter and/or forced conversion of non-Muslims. I realized recently that for the first time in my life as a secular person, I am actually scared of a religion.

Even the less-dangerous teachings of Islam are damaging. Islam in most forms encourages the subjugation of women. Some forms even make it near-impossible for a woman to report a rape without subjecting herself to punishment. In a recent discussion on another thread I noted that a Hadith mentioned Muhammed having sex with a nine-year-old girl. Most Muslims posting on the thread discredited the Hadith, but disturbingly, a few argued that there was nothing wrong with his having sex with a nine-year-old. And they aren't the only ones. A simple web search yields numerous cases of Muslim child marriage and pedophilia, some even sanctioned by the governments of the Islamic countries within which these atrocities occur.

My question to readers is: what can be done about this? I strongly oppose racism, bigotry, and loss of freedom of religion or due process, and I would oppose any draconian measures that violate my principles. On the other hand, tolerance policies in Europe aren't working. As the Muslim population of Europe grows, so does the number of fundamentalists trying to legislate their religion to the exclusion of others. How can we fight fundamentalism without compromising our ideals of freedom and tolerance?

I realize that some of the growth of fundamentalism is driven by western imperialism, particularly that of the United States. But removing this problem will only slow the spread of fundamentalism. The teachings of Islam in themselves have enough to drive fundamentalism.

i like these easy ones. if we're speaking of the US, there is nothing that can be done outside of enforcing the laws. so legally nothing can be done to fight fundamentalism. first amendment you see. tolerence means to tolerate. in the US the government must tolerate everyone's beliefs so long as the implementation of those beliefs do not harm others.