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What morals and ethics do Christians and other religions follow over time?

shmogie

Well-Known Member
There are more than 100 Bible quotes on slavery and none condemn the practice.

You make what I'd call derisively argument by labeling. Christians who do the right thing are "true Christians." That kind of argument is not going to be persuasive to unbiased minds. You're "preaching to the choir."
So, you deny that the New Testament does not teach that all people are equal?

Do you deny that Paul in the New Testament tells slaves to seek their freedom in any way possible?

Do you deny that Christ said you should treat others as you would want to be treated?

Do you deny that Christ Himself said that he would have a large number of followers who claimed to be true believers, but are not.

Atheists, in the form of Mao, and Stalin, and their followers killed millions, so am I to assume that genocide is an accepted part of atheism?

Do you even understand the Biblical concept of the two Covenants and what they mean?
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
So, you deny that the New Testament does not teach that all people are equal?

Do you deny that Paul in the New Testament tells slaves to seek their freedom in any way possible?

Do you deny that Christ said you should treat others as you would want to be treated?

Do you deny that Christ Himself said that he would have a large number of followers who claimed to be true believers, but are not.

Atheists, in the form of Mao, and Stalin, and their followers killed millions, so am I to assume that genocide is an accepted part of atheism?

Do you even understand the Biblical concept of the two Covenants and what they mean?

I deny that those questions are relevant to our discussion.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
There are more than 100 Bible quotes on slavery and none condemn the practice.

We wish we could say slavery is ended today, in 2020. But it continues around the world - Slavery in the 21st century - Wikipedia
"Estimates of the number of slaves today range from around 21 million[1] to 46 million..."



What we see in the bible is the work to change us so that we actually treat everyone -- employees, servants, neighbors, the poor, widows, foreigners...everyone -- better. Only incremental steps in laws actually work though.

Big steps get ignored in that the people just make a new version of the thing made illegal. If something is made illegal people widely want to do, they will just find a new way to do it.

So, God works on us over time to change us over time.

Colossians 4:1 Masters, supply your slaves with what is right and fair, since you know that you also have a Master in heaven.

Ephesians 6:9 And masters, do the same for your slaves. Give up your use of threats, because you know that He who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with Him.

15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.
Philemon 1 NIV

Slave owners and those with indentured servants in the past centuries, millennia, A-Z, that mistreated these servants and didn't not time time totally reverse that and change entirely will go to the "second death" in the "lake of fire".

It's from scripture that all who mistreat others and don't repent will not see eternal Life, but will die in the "second death". (for instance, one could simply read Matthew chapter 7 for the dividing line between salvation and final death)
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
We wish we could say slavery is ended today, in 2020. But it continues around the world - Slavery in the 21st century - Wikipedia
"Estimates of the number of slaves today range from around 21 million[1] to 46 million..."
Slavery is illegal in every culture of he world. The last country (can't recall name) abolished it in 2000. The illegal variety persists.

Morally, I don't feel the need for religion. I think we all are gifted with conscience (moral intuition). It's the only moral authority I recognize. It's guiding me to accept everyone as my equal in human worth regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation or religious views.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Slavery is illegal in every culture of he world. The last country (can't recall name) abolished it in 2000. The illegal variety persists.

Morally, I don't feel the need for religion. I think we all are gifted with conscience (moral intuition). It's the only moral authority I recognize. It's guiding me to accept everyone as equal in human worth regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation or religious views.
Ok. If your conscience helps, you could help fight slavery today, by helping one of the many groups actively working to end slavery.

Connect | List of Antislavery Organizations - End Slavery Now
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
What you say above is unfortunately the egocentric view of most people that only view our existence from their own personal and cultural perspective. The universal perspective is far beyond any personal or cultural perspective.
But still,
In my experience, some ideologies are more accepting of the difference between objective views and subjective views.

Hindus and Jews and Buddhists seem much more accepting of the distinction between "true for me, your truth might be different" and "my beliefs are the one and only true beliefs", than the dominant ideologies today.

Islam, Capitalism, Christianity, and Communism aren't as amenable to the broad human experience. They're more inclined to encourage adherents to get rid of people who don't match.
Tom
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
But still,
In my experience, some ideologies are more accepting of the difference between objective views and subjective views.

Hindus and Jews and Buddhists seem much more accepting of the distinction between "true for me, your truth might be different" and "my beliefs are the one and only true beliefs", than the dominant ideologies today.

Islam, Capitalism, Christianity, and Communism aren't as amenable to the broad human experience. They're more inclined to encourage adherents to get rid of people who don't match.
Tom
A "Christian" who 'gets rid of people that don't match' will typically end up in the "second death" (unless they utterly change entirely in repentance), we can see in Matthew chapter 7, such as from verses 1-2, 12 and more. One thing that is encouraging about my current church (encouraging about the outcome for this church itself) is that it says "all are sinners" and basically welcomes everyone....
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
A "Christian" who 'gets rid of people that don't match' will typically end up in the "second death" (unless they utterly change entirely in repentance), we can see in Matthew chapter 7, such as from verses 1-2, 12 and more. One thing that is encouraging about my current church (encouraging about the outcome for this church itself) is that it says "all are sinners" and basically welcomes everyone....
Why would I believe this?

I don't doubt that you do, but why would I?
Tom
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
But still,
In my experience, some ideologies are more accepting of the difference between objective views and subjective views.

Hindus and Jews and Buddhists seem much more accepting of the distinction between "true for me, your truth might be different" and "my beliefs are the one and only true beliefs", than the dominant ideologies today.

Islam, Capitalism, Christianity, and Communism aren't as amenable to the broad human experience. They're more inclined to encourage adherents to get rid of people who don't match.
Tom

Unquestionably, Hinduism and Judaism have traditionally been characterised by a philosophy of tolerance which has proven more consistent over time than the patchier range of historical perspectives found within universalist ideologies including Islam, Christianity, Jacobinism, Capitalism and Communism (each of which regards itself as the repository of a 'world-saving' doctrine all of human society should learn about for their own good and all embracing some kind of historical determinist narrative that holds their creedo to be the 'last stage' of human development).

However, I'm not so sure I'd agree with you to the same extent where Buddhism is concerned.

It is an emphatically universalistic creed like the former and unsurprisingly having the 'right view' is every bit as essential to that religion as it is in the other belief systems mentioned, in a way one couldn't say for Hindus, Jains or Sikhs; indeed it is one of the central precepts of the Noble Eightfold Path.

There is for Buddhists 'correct belief' and 'incorrect belief', sound dharma and points of view that are adharmic and thus not acceptable within the Sangha. Mahayana Buddhism, for example, defined itself against the competing Therevadin sect by labelling Therevada the Hīnayāna, often translated "lesser vehicle". The word ‘h─лna’ actually means ‘inferior’, ‘low,’ ‘poor’, ‘miserable’, ‘vile’, or ‘contemptible’ - which, if you look at the history of how Catholics and Protestants have referred to one another, might ring a bell.

Having an 'orthodoxy' as well as an 'orthopraxy' doesn't equate to 'intolerance' (some exclusivist faiths have been the most tolerant, some inclusivist ones have been intolerant). In the fundamental precepts of of the Pali Canon, or the early Sutras of the Mahayana tradition, the teachings of the Buddha are incredibly rich in compassion for all human beings.

But given the right context and state patronage of the religion, this dichotomy of right/wrong view can be abused - just as has been within Christianity - into providing a raison d'etre to justify treating the 'unorthodox' (wrong-viewed) differently from the 'orthodox' (right-viewed) and sometimes it has been used to persecute the former.

Sitagu Sayadaw, a prolific Buddhist scholar and ordained Therevadin monk, is the most respected religious leader in Myanmar, known for his teachings and philanthropic work. In a sermon back in 2017, he suggested to his congregation that the killing of those who are not Buddhist can be justified on the grounds that those who do not follow the Noble Eightfold Path and do not take refuge in the Buddha, his doctrine and the Sangha, are less than human:


Not all Buddhists agree with Sitagu Sayadaw’s militant message | Coconuts Yangon


Myanmar’s most revered Buddhist leader gave a speech on Monday in which he urged hundreds of military officers to not to fear the sinfulness of taking human life.

During his speech, which was delivered at a military base in Kayin State and broadcast live in Myanmar to over 250,000 viewers, Sitagu Sayadaw shared a parable about an ancient Sri Lankan king who was assured by Buddhist clerics that the countless Hindus he had killed only added up to one and a half lives.

“Don’t worry King, it’s a little bit of sin. Don’t worry,” Sitagu Sayadaw said. “Even though you killed millions of people, they were only one and a half real human beings.”

But Sitagu Sayadaw’s stature and erudition have not been enough to protect him from the ire of some Myanmar Buddhists, who believe his coziness with the military is drawing him away from the principles of Buddhism.

“This was a shocking speech,” said Thet Swe Win, director of the Centre for Youth and Social Harmony, an interfaith organization. “It was totally against the Buddhism I understood. Buddha teaches about love, kindness, and compassion to every human being, regardless of race and religion, and also teaches that killing is a sin. But this speech said killing non-Buddhist people is not a sin.”

Thet Swe Win compared the message of Sitagu Sayadaw’s speech to the doctrines of the so-called Islamic State.

“ISIS also says killing non-Muslims is not a sin.”


This is not a 'new' fundamentalist strain.

Consider the Mahāvaṃsa, the "Great Chronicle" of 5th century Buddhist Sri Lanka written in the Pali language, composed by a Buddhist monk at the Mahavihara temple in Anuradhapura.

One of the Buddhist kings it describes, Dutugamanu destroyed his opponents in battle. After the bloodshed, he laments for causing the deaths of millions of innocents in the campaign. Eight enlightened monks (arhant) comfort him with this explanation:


"From this deed arises no hindrance in thy way to heaven. Only one and half human beings have been slain here by thee, O lord of men. The one had come unto the (three) refuges, the other had taken on himself the five precepts. Unbelievers and men of evil life were the rest, not more to be esteemed than beasts. But as for thee, thou wilt bring glory to the doctrine of the Buddha in manifold ways; therefore cast away from thy heart, O ruler of men!"

(Geiger 1993 translation; 178)​


This is no different to what you'd expect to hear from the most intolerant Abrahamist, for example in the Catholic Spanish Inquisition or Islamic Mihna or the Protestant Penal Laws imposed upon Catholics in 17th century Ireland (Catholics were only fully emancipated in 1829 by the UK government). Buddhists are distinguished from non-Buddhists, the murders in the narrative of the "unbelievers" of "evil life" are dismissed, because the king has pure intent with the desire to defend Buddhism.

This kind of rhetoric has been used today in majority Buddhist Burma and Sri Lanka, against the Muslim minority in that country:


Persecution of Muslims in Myanmar - Wikipedia


A BBC article on it by Professor Alan Strathern, an anthropologist from Oxford University, makes an excellent point about the corruption of religious ideals arising from the almost inevitable bargain with "state power":


Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims?


Of all the moral precepts instilled in Buddhist monks the promise not to kill comes first, and the principle of non-violence is arguably more central to Buddhism than any other major religion. So why have monks been using hate speech against Muslims and joining mobs that have left dozens dead?

This is happening in two countries separated by well over 1,000 miles of Indian Ocean - Burma and Sri Lanka. It is puzzling because neither country is facing an Islamist militant threat. Muslims in both places are a generally peaceable and small minority...

On Tuesday, Buddhist mobs attacked mosques and burned more than 70 homes in Oakkan, north of Rangoon, after a Muslim girl on a bicycle collided with a monk. One person died and nine were injured...

Aggressive thoughts are inimical to all Buddhist teachings...while your compassion for all living things grows.

Of course, there is a strong strain of pacifism in Christian teachings too: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," were the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount...

But however any religion starts out, sooner or later it enters into a Faustian pact with state power. Buddhist monks looked to kings, the ultimate wielders of violence, for the support, patronage and order that only they could provide. Kings looked to monks to provide the popular legitimacy that only such a high moral vision can confer.

The result can seem ironic. If you have a strong sense of the overriding moral superiority of your worldview, then the need to protect and advance it can seem the most important duty of all.


Christian crusaders, Islamist militants, or the leaders of "freedom-loving nations", all justify what they see as necessary violence in the name of a higher good. Buddhist rulers and monks have been no exception.

So, historically, Buddhism has been no more a religion of peace than Christianity.

Burmese rulers, known as "kings of righteousness", justified wars in the name of what they called true Buddhist doctrine.

In Japan, many samurai were devotees of Zen Buddhism and various arguments sustained them - killing a man about to commit a dreadful crime was an act of compassion, for example. Such reasoning surfaced again when Japan mobilised for World War II.


Buddhist societies in my honest opinion have not, overall, proven any more or less accommodating to people who think differently than Christian ones.

That fundamentalist Buddhists, today (including high-ranking monks), in a number of country are severely persecuting Muslims is not at all surprising to me - anymore than it is when I see the same thing happening to religious minorities in the Islamic world or from the KKK Protestant Christians / Westboro Baptist Church in the United States.

Hinduism, by contrast, is very different from the other religions in being a system more akin to the ancient Roman religion - a constellation of beliefs, deities, practices and philosophies stretching across the Indian subcontinent, bound together by their roots in a common civilisation. It is 'big tent' inclusive by its very nature, because it is itself defined by an enormous multiplicity of different traditions loosely centred around core sacred scriptures like the Vedas, of which the various sects hold vastly different interpretations ranging from Dvaita (dualism) to Advaita (non-dualism) and everything in between. Vaishnavas are quite different from followers of Smartism, to take just two examples.

But even amidst the various Hindu sects, a more militant Hindutva "nationalist" ideology has arisen in India in recent years, which is arguably akin in some respects to the intolerance of Christian White Nativism in America and the Buddhist fundamentalism in Myanmar. So, even a religious system as inherently pluralistic as Hinduism is not entirely immune.

However the universalist creeds are at once, often, the most humanistic and paradoxically the most intolerant and hence deadly dependent on the given environmental factors.
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Unquestionably, Hinduism and Judaism have traditionally been characterised by a philosophy of tolerance which has proven more consistent over time than the patchier range of historical perspectives found within universalist ideologies including Islam, Christianity, Jacobinism, Capitalism and Communism (each of which regards itself as the repository of a 'world-saving' doctrine all of human society should learn about for their own good and all embracing some kind of historical determinist narrative that holds their creedo to be the 'last stage' of human development).

However, I'm not so sure I'd agree with you to the same extent where Buddhism is concerned.

It is an emphatically universalistic creed like the former and unsurprisingly having the 'right view' is every bit as essential to that religion as it is in the other belief systems mentioned, in a way one couldn't say for Hindus, Jains or Sikhs; indeed it is one of the central precepts of the Noble Eightfold Path.

There is for Buddhists 'correct belief' and 'incorrect belief', sound dharma and points of view that are adharmic and thus not acceptable within the Sangha. Mahayana Buddhism, for example, defined itself against the competing Therevadin sect by labelling Therevada the Hīnayāna, often translated "lesser vehicle". The word ‘h─лna’ actually means ‘inferior’, ‘low,’ ‘poor’, ‘miserable’, ‘vile’, or ‘contemptible’ - which, if you look at the history of how Catholics and Protestants have referred to one another, might ring a bell.

Having an 'orthodoxy' as well as an 'orthopraxy' doesn't equate to 'intolerance' (some exclusivist faiths have been the most tolerant, some inclusivist ones have been intolerant). In the fundamental precepts of of the Pali Canon, or the early Sutras of the Mahayana tradition, the teachings of the Buddha are incredibly rich in compassion for all human beings.

But given the right context and state patronage of the religion, this dichotomy of right/wrong view can be abused - just as has been within Christianity - into providing a raison d'etre to justify treating the 'unorthodox' (wrong-viewed) differently from the 'orthodox' (right-viewed) and sometimes it has been used to persecute the former.

Sitagu Sayadaw, a prolific Buddhist scholar and ordained Therevadin monk, is the most respected religious leader in Myanmar, known for his teachings and philanthropic work. In a sermon back in 2017, he suggested to his congregation that the killing of those who are not Buddhist can be justified on the grounds that those who do not follow the Noble Eightfold Path and do not take refuge in the Buddha, his doctrine and the Sangha, are less than human:


Not all Buddhists agree with Sitagu Sayadaw’s militant message | Coconuts Yangon


Myanmar’s most revered Buddhist leader gave a speech on Monday in which he urged hundreds of military officers to not to fear the sinfulness of taking human life.

During his speech, which was delivered at a military base in Kayin State and broadcast live in Myanmar to over 250,000 viewers, Sitagu Sayadaw shared a parable about an ancient Sri Lankan king who was assured by Buddhist clerics that the countless Hindus he had killed only added up to one and a half lives.

“Don’t worry King, it’s a little bit of sin. Don’t worry,” Sitagu Sayadaw said. “Even though you killed millions of people, they were only one and a half real human beings.”

But Sitagu Sayadaw’s stature and erudition have not been enough to protect him from the ire of some Myanmar Buddhists, who believe his coziness with the military is drawing him away from the principles of Buddhism.

“This was a shocking speech,” said Thet Swe Win, director of the Centre for Youth and Social Harmony, an interfaith organization. “It was totally against the Buddhism I understood. Buddha teaches about love, kindness, and compassion to every human being, regardless of race and religion, and also teaches that killing is a sin. But this speech said killing non-Buddhist people is not a sin.”

Thet Swe Win compared the message of Sitagu Sayadaw’s speech to the doctrines of the so-called Islamic State.

“ISIS also says killing non-Muslims is not a sin.”


This is not a 'new' fundamentalist strain.

Consider the Mahāvaṃsa, the "Great Chronicle" of 5th century Buddhist Sri Lanka written in the Pali language, composed by a Buddhist monk at the Mahavihara temple in Anuradhapura.

One of the Buddhist kings it describes, Dutugamanu destroyed his opponents in battle. After the bloodshed, he laments for causing the deaths of millions of innocents in the campaign. Eight enlightened monks (arhant) comfort him with this explanation:


"From this deed arises no hindrance in thy way to heaven. Only one and half human beings have been slain here by thee, O lord of men. The one had come unto the (three) refuges, the other had taken on himself the five precepts. Unbelievers and men of evil life were the rest, not more to be esteemed than beasts. But as for thee, thou wilt bring glory to the doctrine of the Buddha in manifold ways; therefore cast away from thy heart, O ruler of men!"

(Geiger 1993 translation; 178)​


This is no different to what you'd expect to hear from the most intolerant Abrahamist, for example in the Catholic Spanish Inquisition or Islamic Mihna or the Protestant Penal Laws imposed upon Catholics in 17th century Ireland (Catholics were only fully emancipated in 1829 by the UK government). Buddhists are distinguished from non-Buddhists, the murders in the narrative of the "unbelievers" of "evil life" are dismissed, because the king has pure intent with the desire to defend Buddhism.

This kind of rhetoric has been used today in majority Buddhist Burma and Sri Lanka, against the Muslim minority in that country:


Persecution of Muslims in Myanmar - Wikipedia


A BBC article on it by Professor Alan Strathern, an anthropologist from Oxford University, makes an excellent point about the corruption of religious ideals arising from the almost inevitable bargain with "state power":


Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims?


Of all the moral precepts instilled in Buddhist monks the promise not to kill comes first, and the principle of non-violence is arguably more central to Buddhism than any other major religion. So why have monks been using hate speech against Muslims and joining mobs that have left dozens dead?

This is happening in two countries separated by well over 1,000 miles of Indian Ocean - Burma and Sri Lanka. It is puzzling because neither country is facing an Islamist militant threat. Muslims in both places are a generally peaceable and small minority...

On Tuesday, Buddhist mobs attacked mosques and burned more than 70 homes in Oakkan, north of Rangoon, after a Muslim girl on a bicycle collided with a monk. One person died and nine were injured...

Aggressive thoughts are inimical to all Buddhist teachings...while your compassion for all living things grows.

Of course, there is a strong strain of pacifism in Christian teachings too: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," were the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount...

But however any religion starts out, sooner or later it enters into a Faustian pact with state power. Buddhist monks looked to kings, the ultimate wielders of violence, for the support, patronage and order that only they could provide. Kings looked to monks to provide the popular legitimacy that only such a high moral vision can confer.

The result can seem ironic. If you have a strong sense of the overriding moral superiority of your worldview, then the need to protect and advance it can seem the most important duty of all.


Christian crusaders, Islamist militants, or the leaders of "freedom-loving nations", all justify what they see as necessary violence in the name of a higher good. Buddhist rulers and monks have been no exception.

So, historically, Buddhism has been no more a religion of peace than Christianity.

Burmese rulers, known as "kings of righteousness", justified wars in the name of what they called true Buddhist doctrine.

In Japan, many samurai were devotees of Zen Buddhism and various arguments sustained them - killing a man about to commit a dreadful crime was an act of compassion, for example. Such reasoning surfaced again when Japan mobilised for World War II.


Buddhist societies in my honest opinion have not, overall, proven any more or less accommodating to people who think differently than Christian ones.

That fundamentalist Buddhists, today (including high-ranking monks), in a number of country are severely persecuting Muslims is not at all surprising to me - anymore than it is when I see the same thing happening to religious minorities in the Islamic world or from the KKK Protestant Christians / Westboro Baptist Church in the United States.

Hinduism, by contrast, is very different from the other religions in being a system more akin to the ancient Roman religion - a constellation of beliefs, deities, practices and philosophies stretching across the Indian subcontinent, bound together by their roots in a common civilisation. It is 'big tent' inclusive by its very nature, because it is itself defined by an enormous multiplicity of different traditions loosely centred around core sacred scriptures like the Vedas, of which the various sects hold vastly different interpretations ranging from Dvaita (dualism) to Advaita (non-dualism) and everything in between. Vaishnavas are quite different from followers of Smartism, to take just two examples.

But even amidst the various Hindu sects, a more militant Hindutva "nationalist" ideology has arisen in India in recent years, which is arguably akin in some respects to the intolerance of Christian White Nativism in America and the Buddhist fundamentalism in Myanmar. So, even a religious system as inherently pluralistic as Hinduism is not entirely immune.

However the universalist creeds are at once, often, the most humanistic and paradoxically the most intolerant and hence deadly dependent on the given environmental factors.
While one reads about Buddhists violence/attacking various groups over the years in the news, this was a helpful expansion on rationales.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
But still,
In my experience, some ideologies are more accepting of the difference between objective views and subjective views.

Hindus and Jews and Buddhists seem much more accepting of the distinction between "true for me, your truth might be different" and "my beliefs are the one and only true beliefs", than the dominant ideologies today.

Islam, Capitalism, Christianity, and Communism aren't as amenable to the broad human experience. They're more inclined to encourage adherents to get rid of people who don't match.
Tom

What you describe above fits and justifies my view of what is the universal. An essential part of the acceptance of the universal is that "what is true to me and true to you, of course might be different, but neither truth represents the universal, in fact it is best not to consider what one believes is truth.

Though Hindus, Buddhists and Jews may or may not be more amenable and accepting they do draw lines concerning what they believe and others who do not believe. I consider Buddhists potentially more amenable, but they do draw strong cultural and religious boundaries between themselves and those who believe differently.

It is of course common for many to believe represents the closest to the truth that is humanly possible.

In Buddhism there are principles I believe in and that is the 'no boundary,' 'nothing is necessary,' and the essential 'nothingness of human identity from the human perspective, because of the fallible nature of being human. I am close to the principles of Buddhism, but not contemporary Buddhism. That is why philosophically I am an agnostic, and question the limits of my own choices of belief. The powers to be forced the label agnostic on me, because of this. acknowledging that ones beliefs do represent the center of anything, Most believe their beliefs are the center of something. I believe comes close to acknowledging the Universal beyond what one believes.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Unquestionably, Hinduism and Judaism have traditionally been characterised by a philosophy of tolerance which has proven more consistent over time than the patchier range of historical perspectives found within universalist ideologies including Islam, Christianity, Jacobinism, Capitalism and Communism (each of which regards itself as the repository of a 'world-saving' doctrine all of human society should learn about for their own good and all embracing some kind of historical determinist narrative that holds their creedo to be the 'last stage' of human development).

However, I'm not so sure I'd agree with you to the same extent where Buddhism is concerned.

It is an emphatically universalistic creed like the former and unsurprisingly having the 'right view' is every bit as essential to that religion as it is in the other belief systems mentioned, in a way one couldn't say for Hindus, Jains or Sikhs; indeed it is one of the central precepts of the Noble Eightfold Path.

There is for Buddhists 'correct belief' and 'incorrect belief', sound dharma and points of view that are adharmic and thus not acceptable within the Sangha. Mahayana Buddhism, for example, defined itself against the competing Therevadin sect by labelling Therevada the Hīnayāna, often translated "lesser vehicle". The word ‘h─лna’ actually means ‘inferior’, ‘low,’ ‘poor’, ‘miserable’, ‘vile’, or ‘contemptible’ - which, if you look at the history of how Catholics and Protestants have referred to one another, might ring a bell.

Having an 'orthodoxy' as well as an 'orthopraxy' doesn't equate to 'intolerance' (some exclusivist faiths have been the most tolerant, some inclusivist ones have been intolerant). In the fundamental precepts of of the Pali Canon, or the early Sutras of the Mahayana tradition, the teachings of the Buddha are incredibly rich in compassion for all human beings.

But given the right context and state patronage of the religion, this dichotomy of right/wrong view can be abused - just as has been within Christianity - into providing a raison d'etre to justify treating the 'unorthodox' (wrong-viewed) differently from the 'orthodox' (right-viewed) and sometimes it has been used to persecute the former.

Sitagu Sayadaw, a prolific Buddhist scholar and ordained Therevadin monk, is the most respected religious leader in Myanmar, known for his teachings and philanthropic work. In a sermon back in 2017, he suggested to his congregation that the killing of those who are not Buddhist can be justified on the grounds that those who do not follow the Noble Eightfold Path and do not take refuge in the Buddha, his doctrine and the Sangha, are less than human:


Not all Buddhists agree with Sitagu Sayadaw’s militant message | Coconuts Yangon


Myanmar’s most revered Buddhist leader gave a speech on Monday in which he urged hundreds of military officers to not to fear the sinfulness of taking human life.

During his speech, which was delivered at a military base in Kayin State and broadcast live in Myanmar to over 250,000 viewers, Sitagu Sayadaw shared a parable about an ancient Sri Lankan king who was assured by Buddhist clerics that the countless Hindus he had killed only added up to one and a half lives.

“Don’t worry King, it’s a little bit of sin. Don’t worry,” Sitagu Sayadaw said. “Even though you killed millions of people, they were only one and a half real human beings.”

But Sitagu Sayadaw’s stature and erudition have not been enough to protect him from the ire of some Myanmar Buddhists, who believe his coziness with the military is drawing him away from the principles of Buddhism.

“This was a shocking speech,” said Thet Swe Win, director of the Centre for Youth and Social Harmony, an interfaith organization. “It was totally against the Buddhism I understood. Buddha teaches about love, kindness, and compassion to every human being, regardless of race and religion, and also teaches that killing is a sin. But this speech said killing non-Buddhist people is not a sin.”

Thet Swe Win compared the message of Sitagu Sayadaw’s speech to the doctrines of the so-called Islamic State.

“ISIS also says killing non-Muslims is not a sin.”


This is not a 'new' fundamentalist strain.

Consider the Mahāvaṃsa, the "Great Chronicle" of 5th century Buddhist Sri Lanka written in the Pali language, composed by a Buddhist monk at the Mahavihara temple in Anuradhapura.

One of the Buddhist kings it describes, Dutugamanu destroyed his opponents in battle. After the bloodshed, he laments for causing the deaths of millions of innocents in the campaign. Eight enlightened monks (arhant) comfort him with this explanation:


"From this deed arises no hindrance in thy way to heaven. Only one and half human beings have been slain here by thee, O lord of men. The one had come unto the (three) refuges, the other had taken on himself the five precepts. Unbelievers and men of evil life were the rest, not more to be esteemed than beasts. But as for thee, thou wilt bring glory to the doctrine of the Buddha in manifold ways; therefore cast away from thy heart, O ruler of men!"

(Geiger 1993 translation; 178)​


This is no different to what you'd expect to hear from the most intolerant Abrahamist, for example in the Catholic Spanish Inquisition or Islamic Mihna or the Protestant Penal Laws imposed upon Catholics in 17th century Ireland (Catholics were only fully emancipated in 1829 by the UK government). Buddhists are distinguished from non-Buddhists, the murders in the narrative of the "unbelievers" of "evil life" are dismissed, because the king has pure intent with the desire to defend Buddhism.

This kind of rhetoric has been used today in majority Buddhist Burma and Sri Lanka, against the Muslim minority in that country:


Persecution of Muslims in Myanmar - Wikipedia


A BBC article on it by Professor Alan Strathern, an anthropologist from Oxford University, makes an excellent point about the corruption of religious ideals arising from the almost inevitable bargain with "state power":


Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims?


Of all the moral precepts instilled in Buddhist monks the promise not to kill comes first, and the principle of non-violence is arguably more central to Buddhism than any other major religion. So why have monks been using hate speech against Muslims and joining mobs that have left dozens dead?

This is happening in two countries separated by well over 1,000 miles of Indian Ocean - Burma and Sri Lanka. It is puzzling because neither country is facing an Islamist militant threat. Muslims in both places are a generally peaceable and small minority...

On Tuesday, Buddhist mobs attacked mosques and burned more than 70 homes in Oakkan, north of Rangoon, after a Muslim girl on a bicycle collided with a monk. One person died and nine were injured...

Aggressive thoughts are inimical to all Buddhist teachings...while your compassion for all living things grows.

Of course, there is a strong strain of pacifism in Christian teachings too: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," were the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount...

But however any religion starts out, sooner or later it enters into a Faustian pact with state power. Buddhist monks looked to kings, the ultimate wielders of violence, for the support, patronage and order that only they could provide. Kings looked to monks to provide the popular legitimacy that only such a high moral vision can confer.

The result can seem ironic. If you have a strong sense of the overriding moral superiority of your worldview, then the need to protect and advance it can seem the most important duty of all.


Christian crusaders, Islamist militants, or the leaders of "freedom-loving nations", all justify what they see as necessary violence in the name of a higher good. Buddhist rulers and monks have been no exception.

So, historically, Buddhism has been no more a religion of peace than Christianity.

Burmese rulers, known as "kings of righteousness", justified wars in the name of what they called true Buddhist doctrine.

In Japan, many samurai were devotees of Zen Buddhism and various arguments sustained them - killing a man about to commit a dreadful crime was an act of compassion, for example. Such reasoning surfaced again when Japan mobilised for World War II.


Buddhist societies in my honest opinion have not, overall, proven any more or less accommodating to people who think differently than Christian ones.

That fundamentalist Buddhists, today (including high-ranking monks), in a number of country are severely persecuting Muslims is not at all surprising to me - anymore than it is when I see the same thing happening to religious minorities in the Islamic world or from the KKK Protestant Christians / Westboro Baptist Church in the United States.

Hinduism, by contrast, is very different from the other religions in being a system more akin to the ancient Roman religion - a constellation of beliefs, deities, practices and philosophies stretching across the Indian subcontinent, bound together by their roots in a common civilisation. It is 'big tent' inclusive by its very nature, because it is itself defined by an enormous multiplicity of different traditions loosely centred around core sacred scriptures like the Vedas, of which the various sects hold vastly different interpretations ranging from Dvaita (dualism) to Advaita (non-dualism) and everything in between. Vaishnavas are quite different from followers of Smartism, to take just two examples.

But even amidst the various Hindu sects, a more militant Hindutva "nationalist" ideology has arisen in India in recent years, which is arguably akin in some respects to the intolerance of Christian White Nativism in America and the Buddhist fundamentalism in Myanmar. So, even a religious system as inherently pluralistic as Hinduism is not entirely immune.

However the universalist creeds are at once, often, the most humanistic and paradoxically the most intolerant and hence deadly dependent on the given environmental factors.

You offer the most extreme example of Buddhism that does not represent the History of Buddhism.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
You offer the most extreme example of Buddhism that does not represent the History of Buddhism.

Anymore than the extreme examples of the Inquisition and Crusades represent all of Christian history, or the Islamic Minah and modern-day Jihadist terrorism all of Islamic history. I said in my post that such ideas are in direct violation of the dhamma of Buddha in the Pali Canon or the Mahayana Sutras but these aberrant interpretations did arise historically, just as they did within Christianity too.

I also cited the contemporary extremism in Burma and Sri Lanka, as well as modern Christian equivalents such as the KKK, so by no means was I confining myself to one example.

The Oxford scholar I cited raised many other instances from the annals of Buddhist kings and also the example of Japanese Buddhist monks during the Samurai era and in WW2.

On the latter, I direct you to this study:


Zen at War - Wikipedia


The book meticulously documents Zen Buddhism's support of Japanese militarism from the time of the Meiji Restoration through the World War II and the post-War period. It describes the influence of state policy on Buddhism in Japan, and particularly the influence of Zen on the military of the Empire of Japan. A famous quote is from Harada Daiun Sogaku: "[If ordered to] march: tramp, tramp, or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest Wisdom [of Enlightenment]. The unity of Zen and war of which I speak extends to the farthest reaches of the holy war [now under way]."[1][2]

The book also explores the actions of Japanese Buddhists who opposed the growth of militarism.

The 2002 edition of Zen at War was followed by Zen War Stories, which further explores the intimate relationship between Japanese institutional Buddhism and militarism during World War II.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Really? No.

Your problem is that you believe if a person says they are a Christian, they are. Not so.

Not so, consider all who claim to Christian to be Christian. Christianity is more diverse in my view than yours. A very human diversity.

Further, you ignore the principles of the NT, and many early Church writers.

I do not ignore them at all.

In the United States, the most economically powerful colonies, then states were extremely uncomfortable with slave holding, ad it was strongly frowned upon.

Not in those states that fought the Civil War in defense of their right to own slave. You are also neglecting the fact that many in the North held slaves before the Civil War.

Many of the Founders have written that slavery was immoral, yet they feared for the integrity of the Republic if it was dealt with too soon..

Actually only partly true.

People who supported slavery, believed that African slaves were "less than human", thus justifying their slaveholding.

The dominant view if the Southern States.

This is diametrically opposed to the NT declaration in various places that people of all races, all skin colors, both sexes, are totally equal.

Only before God in Heaven. No where in the Bible is slavery forbidden.

Since you are a Baha'i, or once said you were, you believe islam in some fashion is an expression of God..

I would like you to expound on muslim slavery, it's history, it's capture and selling of Africans into slavery, and what is occurring today regarding islam and slavery.

I would expound on it no more than the history of Christianity and slavery. The Christians widely bought, sold and owned slave, and even traded with Muslims. The Baha'i Faith is the only Abrahamic religion that condemns all forms of slavery.

Actually in Islam they have some more enlightened views on slavery than the Bible.

I think you carry a bias against Christianity, and Christians. Disabuse me of that, if you can.

No disagreeing is not disabuse (?)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Anymore than the extreme examples of the Inquisition and Crusades represent all of Christian history, or the Islamic Minah and modern-day Jihadist terrorism all of Islamic history.

I also cited the contemporary extremism in Burma and Sri Lanka, as well as modern Christian equivalents such as the KKK.

The Oxford scholar I cited raised many other examples from the annals of Buddhist kings and also the example of Japanese Buddhist monks during the Samurai era and in WW2.

I am very well versed on the history your selectively citing. I do not judge any religion by the extreme examples that people often cite throwing boulders in glass house.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I am very well versed on the history your selectively citing. I do not judge any religion by the extreme examples that people often cite throwing boulders in glass house.

With all due respect, I made no comment as to how well-versed you may or may not be on Buddhist history, nor was I engaging in the activity you describe "throwing boulders in glass house".
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
With all due respect, I made no comment as to how well-versed you may or may not be on Buddhist history, nor was I engaging in the activity you describe "throwing boulders in glass house".

Your response remains questionable considering your present response, and your response also represented extreme examples, and by the way most believers in Japan were believers in Shinto and Buddhism. My previous post was definitely in the context of "throwing boulders in a glass house."
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Not so, consider all who claim to Christian to be Christian. Christianity is more diverse in my view than yours. A very human diversity.



I do not ignore them at all.



Not in those states that fought the Civil War in defense of their right to own slave. You are also neglecting the fact that many in the North held slaves before the Civil War.



Actually only partly true.



The dominant view if the Southern States.



Only before God in Heaven. No where in the Bible is slavery forbidden.



I would expound on it no more than the history of Christianity and slavery. The Christians widely bought, sold and owned slave, and even traded with Muslims. The Baha'i Faith is the only Abrahamic religion that condemns all forms of slavery.

Actually in Islam they have some more enlightened views on slavery than the Bible.



No disagreeing is not disabuse (?)
The Christ said, as a primary teaching, do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. In another place He said the entire law was based upon loving God, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

Now tell me again that slavery is not condemned in the Bible.

You seem to think that anyone who says they are a Christian, is a Christian.

Interestingly, the Son of God who founded the faith, categorically denied this to be true, in a number of places. The Apostles disagreed with your idea, the Church Fathers disagreed with your idea.

Christ gave you infallible guidance in identifying Christians, by their fruit ( actions in harmony with Bible teachings) you shall know them. For your own agenda, you don't accept this guidance.

Do you know what disabuse means?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The Christ said, as a primary teaching, do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. In another place He said the entire law was based upon loving God, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

Similar quotes can be found in the religions of the world before and after the life of Christ.

Now tell me again that slavery is not condemned in the Bible.

In no place is slavery condemned in the Bible. The only thing that 'may be interpreted' in the Bible is you love your slaves the same as you lover others.

You seem to think that anyone who says they are a Christian, is a Christian.

I do not judge others and accept the witness of others concerning their statement of belief. We are all fallible humans.

Interestingly, the Son of God who founded the faith, categorically denied this to be true, in a number of places. The Apostles disagreed with your idea, the Church Fathers disagreed with your idea.

Christ gave you infallible guidance in identifying Christians, by their fruit ( actions in harmony with Bible teachings) you shall know them. For your own agenda, you don't accept this guidance.

Let Christ judge not me.

Matthew 7:2 - For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged;
and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.

James 3:12 -There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?

Do you know what disabuse means?

Yes, of course, it is how you view science.
 
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