What makes you LHP

[Adramelek]

Dear Kori,

We do not deny that modern Satanism and Setian philosophy are in many ways ecclectic remanifestations of various ancient magical and psyche-worshipping philosophies and cultures of Europe and the Mediterranean. Furthermore, that which some of us call the "Black Flame" which is the very Essence of That which many of us call the Prince or Lord of Darkness, by its very nature transcends the laws of the Order of the Cosmos. Hence, those such as human beings who have been infused with this "dark essence" are capable of Acts which defy and overpower the laws of the Cosmic Order.

These Acts or manifestations of Free Will are what we call "Black Magic" which is antithetical to the laws of the natural universe. And, yes, this is a Magical "theory" held by many ToS Setians, and is one that I personally think to be the most correct. So, in my opinion, the very existence of Isolate, Self-Aware beings transcends the very laws of the Order of the Cosmos; which is the very foundation of many ancient Magical cultures, and modern western Left-Hand Path philosophy.

"I am within and beyond you, the Highest of Life, in majesty greater than the forces of the Universe."

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[Kori Houghton]

That's the point, the Creative force (Black Flame) is NOT part of the OU and is NOT subject to its Laws.

Ah, okay. That helps. Even though you are not authorized to speak on behalf of the TOS as a member of the clergy (as far as I know, anyway), your explanation verifies how the Black Flame is commonly understood.

No, it originated in Egypt. Vedic beliefs did not have a lot of other cultures to blend with yet. I will have to look into this some more.

I am not primarily looking for the blending of other cultures with Vedic beliefs so much as how what you might call the Laws of the OU in IndoEuropean cultures differ over distance and time from an origin point, including -- but limited to -- what changes occurred upon reaching the Mediterranean.

When you have successfully separated your Self from the OU, you then have the Liberation to choose your incarnations or not. Of course this is something I have only read and have never experienced, so another's interpretation is just as valid as mine.

I would have thought upon separation from the OU (as you mean it), the Self (as you mean it) would not be able to incarnate to any extent in the OU. As in, light's out and you're gone.

 

[Cain]

Ah, okay. That helps. Even though you are not authorized to speak on behalf of the TOS as a member of the clergy (as far as I know, anyway), your explanation verifies how the Black Flame is commonly understood

Excellent questions, if only I could answer them justly!
Thank goodness we're not in the Setian DIR! :runthough I am a former member of the ToS) Here in the LHP Religions I can babble away . . . lol! (which I'm good at)

I am not primarily looking for the blending of other cultures with Vedic beliefs so much as how what you might call the Laws of the OU in IndoEuropean cultures differ over distance and time from an origin point, including -- but limited to -- what changes occurred upon reaching the Mediterranean.

Oy vey, that is a subject in which I am not prepared to explain, but I am on it and I will reply soon.

I would have thought upon separation from the OU (as you mean it), the Self (as you mean it) would not be able to incarnate to any extent in the OU. As in, light's out and you're gone.

My thoughts are that the Self / Psyche already exist outside of the OU, therefore this Self doesn't need the OU to operate or exist, though it does need the OU to Become Known and Understood within the OU / Physical plane.

 

[Kori Houghton]

We do not deny that modern Satanism and Setian philosophy are in many ways ecclectic remanifestations of various ancient magical and psyche-worshipping philosophies and cultures of Europe and the Mediterranean. Furthermore, that which some of us call the "Black Flame" which is the very Essence of That which many of us call the Prince or Lord of Darkness, by its very nature transcends the laws of the Order of the Cosmos. Hence, those such as human beings who have been infused with this "dark essence" are capable of Acts which defy and overpower the laws of the Cosmic Order

Can you please give an example of such an 'Act'? From any time period and/or culture except ancient Egypt, and the person doing it can be mythological, legendary, historical or contemporary.

These Acts or manifestations of Free Will are what we call "Black Magic" which is antithetical to the laws of the natural universe. And, yes, this is a Magical "theory" held by many ToS Setians, and is one that I personally think to be the most correct. So, in my opinion, the very existence of Isolate, Self-Aware beings transcends the very laws of the Order of the Cosmos; which is the very foundation of many ancient Magical cultures, and modern western Left-Hand Path philosophy.

I find the phrase 'modern western Left-Hand Path philosophy' completely at odds with what you describe in the paragraph above, but that's just me Because it is not, in my view, modern, western, or LHP as I understand the meanings of these terms. I do agree that thinking along such lines has been a part of western magical teachings, much good has it done the students thereof as far as i can tell, anyway.

I've read lots of discussions about, and explanations of how and why, Satanism and Setianism should be considered LHP, but I never found any of the conclusions offered to be personally satisfying. But I think I am beginning to see what the connection might be.

 

[Adramelek]

Dear Kori,

We've been over much of this before, and it is clear that we do not agree on many things about which define the LHP. But that's cool, we all have our own minds and individual understandings. In keeping with the theme of this thread though I am curious as to know what you think, in your own words, makes one a practicioner of the LHP. And, do you consider yourself to be such a practicioner?

Xeper,
/Adramelek\

 

[Kori Houghton]

I think I've commented in these forums before that I consider the LHP archetype to be most often a culture hero. Someone who feels compelled to break with convention for the sake of their community, often to bring about a positive outcome from a desperate situation, fully aware of the implications of violating certain cosmic laws or principles, which vary by culture.

Humans who find themselves drawn to follow the LHP are mostly not culture heroes, of course, but act in smaller ways to test and/or bend the rules of the society in which they live so that concepts guiding the interpretation and application of those rules continue to change for the health and growth of the society.

I've also commented that I consider religion to be an integral part of a society, rather than the personal spiritual path of the individual. All religions that I've encountered include myths, legends, or traditions, concerning individuals (mythological, legendary, or historical) that by my definition walked, at least for a time, the LHP.

Since I think all religions include both RHP and LHP aspects, I can't claim as an individual that I am either path exclusively. According to my standards, I have been involved in situations where my motivations, understanding, and actions were consciously part of how I define LHP. Sure, breaking the rules gives you a cool feeling of power but that isn't the point. I don't feel that I need 'liberating' from anything, while at the same time I feel far from complete and contented with where I am and what I've done. Some of my activities I never discuss online due to legal contraints :sorry1:. But I've done a lot of odd stuff, including ONA-style 'insight roles' decades before I heard of the term or the org, and being involved in some kick-arse magical workings that did kick me physically and spiritually pretty darn hard. I don't have a public resume' and I don't feel the need for one.

I feel a certain sympathy with Satanism and all sorts of Trickster archetypes and sacred acts relating to those forms. I think I can see how individuals who feel close to Trickster gods or archetypes could interpret their spiritual life as being defined by Trickster mythology. This is why I've been interested in the ongoing dialog among the various flavors of Satanism (in which I include the Temple of Set) about what the LHP is, and how it involves the individual and society, and even what happpens after physical death

 

[Kori Houghton]

Excellent questions, if only I could answer them justly!
Thank goodness we're not in the Setian DIR! :runthough I am a former member of the ToS) Here in the LHP Religions I can babble away . . . lol! (which I'm good at)

I should state for the record that my questions and comments about the LHP aren't made by way of picking on the TOS, so it makes perfect sense to me that we aren't in the Setian DIR! A bunch of orgs and individuals have been involved in the decades long ongoing discussion of how -- or even if -- Satanism or Setianism are LHP, and how modern groups share or differ from historical LHP practioners.

Oy vey, that is a subject in which I am not prepared to explain, but I am on it and I will reply soon.

Yeah, right? Figuring out all that makes a cosmic principle or law and tracing it through cultures and time isn't the work of a few hours, or even weeks. There are some books I've seen on old versions of the TOS reading list that I have found helpful (books I had in my library before I saw the reading list, just to clarify )

My thoughts are that the Self / Psyche already exist outside of the OU, therefore this Self doesn't need the OU to operate or exist, though it does need the OU to Become Known and Understood within the OU / Physical plane.

I am thinking that the OU and SU model needs at least a couple more Universes to work for me. Tentatively I've designated them the FU and the CU, but they are not defined yet to my satisfaction.

 

[blackout]

In response to Kori,

This did not sit right with me.

I think I've commented in these forums before that I consider the LHP archetype to be most often a culture hero. Someone who feels compelled to break with convention for the sake of their community, often to bring about a positive outcome from a desperate situation, fully aware of the implications of violating certain cosmic laws or principles, which vary by culture.

Humans who find themselves drawn to follow the LHP are mostly not culture heroes, of course, but act in smaller ways to test and/or bend the rules of the society in which they live so that concepts guiding the interpretation and application of those rules continue to change for the health and growth of the society.

After some discussion and contemplation,
I have come upon this notion,

LHP= Masters
RHP= Servants

At least, I see this as an intrinsic tendency.
(and in varied applications)

As far as I can see, LHPers are primarily vested in
matters of Self Interest.
They look at life from the viewpoint of Self first.
"Know ThySelf" and "To Thine Own Self Be True",
regardless- and in the face of- social convention.
They WILL TO BECOME as Masters of their Own Subjective Reality.
(Gods of their Own Domain)
RHPers are primarily vested in matters of Others (/society).
They glorify the notion of "putting the other first".
Social servants, Servants of god and neighbor. etc
Other first, Self second.
(Servants of the Domain to which they "Belong")

There are both Healthy/Loving and Psychotic/Controlling people
on both sides of the fence.
In spite of all the other potential crossovers
I think the primary constant
comes down to Self, and Other.

The LHPer follows the Self.
(regardless of societal norms and 'wisdoms')
Seeking mastery of Self and the Domain of Self,
and on Their Own Terms.
The RHPer usually follows some "Other"
(be it 'God', Society, Fashion of the day, Tradition etc etc)

so...

LHP = Primarily concerned with Self
RHP = Primarily concerned with Other

in many possible applications.



Actually, now, I'd like to think about what I've said,
and see if I agree with mySelf.

 

[blackout]

I think I've commented in these forums before that I consider the LHP archetype to be most often a culture hero. Someone who feels compelled to break with convention for the sake of their community, often to bring about a positive outcome from a desperate situation, fully aware of the implications of violating certain cosmic laws or principles, which vary by culture.

Humans who find themselves drawn to follow the LHP are mostly not culture heroes, of course, but act in smaller ways to test and/or bend the rules of the society in which they live so that concepts guiding the interpretation and application of those rules continue to change for the health and growth of the society.

On further reflection,
I suppose a desperate societal condition for a LHPer
would be maybe something like gay rights/equality,
as this Comes Against the Freedom of the Individual in society.

Perhaps by a LHP (counter cultural) culture hero, you mean someone like Lady Gaga.
(not to start another Gaga debate. she's just the first example that came to mind)

 

[Cain]

I should state for the record that my questions and comments about the LHP aren't made by way of picking on the TOS, so it makes perfect sense to me that we aren't in the Setian DIR! A bunch of orgs and individuals have been involved in the decades long ongoing discussion of how -- or even if -- Satanism or Setianism are LHP, and how modern groups share or differ from historical LHP practioners.



Yeah, right? Figuring out all that makes a cosmic principle or law and tracing it through cultures and time isn't the work of a few hours, or even weeks. There are some books I've seen on old versions of the TOS reading list that I have found helpful (books I had in my library before I saw the reading list, just to clarify )



I am thinking that the OU and SU model needs at least a couple more Universes to work for me. Tentatively I've designated them the FU and the CU, but they are not defined yet to my satisfaction.

Interesting to say the least

 

[blackout]

I just thought I'd add
that I don't "follow" or "adhere" to
some proverbial Left Hand Path.

I'm just me. Doing my own thing.

ie. Labels may fit me as I live,
but I don't live to fit labels.

 

[blackout]

I am thinking that the OU and SU model needs at least a couple more Universes to work for me. Tentatively I've designated them the FU and the CU, but they are not defined yet to my satisfaction.

If you don't mind, what do the F and the C stand for?

interested and curious.

 

[Kori Houghton]

In response to Kori,

This did not sit right with me.


Quote:
I think I've commented in these forums before that I consider the LHP archetype to be most often a culture hero. Someone who feels compelled to break with convention for the sake of their community, often to bring about a positive outcome from a desperate situation, fully aware of the implications of violating certain cosmic laws or principles, which vary by culture.

Humans who find themselves drawn to follow the LHP are mostly not culture heroes, of course, but act in smaller ways to test and/or bend the rules of the society in which they live so that concepts guiding the interpretation and application of those rules continue to change for the health and growth of the society.

After some discussion and contemplation,
I have come upon this notion,

LHP= Masters
RHP= Servants

At least, I see this as an intrinsic tendency.
(and in varied applications)

As far as I can see, LHPers are primarily vested in
matters of Self Interest.
They look at life from the viewpoint of Self first.
"Know ThySelf" and "To Thine Own Self Be True",
regardless- and in the face of- social convention.
They WILL TO BECOME as Masters of their Own Subjective Reality.
(Gods of their Own Domain)

I have never had any reason to doubt that all humans are masters of their own subjective realities, regardless of their path. No one can know the subjective reality of another -- the best we can do is guess about the internal life of another person and guess about what lives there by interpreting what manifests in shared (objective?) reality. IMO

RHPers are primarily vested in matters of Others (/society).
They glorify the notion of "putting the other first".
Social servants, Servants of god and neighbor. etc
Other first, Self second.
(Servants of the Domain to which they "Belong")

I think where we differ here is that I view the individual's spiritual experience as a personal thing, different than religious experience in that it is individual and solitary rather than communal. We all 'belong' to a community, and we all experience situations where we will unhesitatingly put another 'first' as part of our biological heritage. Where I think we agree (?) is that the internal spiritual experience, such as apprehension of the Divine and its Laws or Principles, can color our choices on how we relate to our communities.

There are both Healthy/Loving and Psychotic/Controlling people
on both sides of the fence.
In spite of all the other potential crossovers
I think the primary constant
comes down to Self, and Other.

In a way, I agree. If the issue of Self and Other is significant in your worldview, that is how you will evaluate Black and White seeming choices or alternatives. For me the internal spiritual experience can only be by and about the Self, whereas religious, or other community-involved experiences, can be about the Self or Other or both.

The LHPer follows the Self.
(regardless of societal norms and 'wisdoms')
Seeking mastery of Self and the Domain of Self,
and on Their Own Terms.
The RHPer usually follows some "Other"
(be it 'God', Society, Fashion of the day, Tradition etc etc)

Actually the LHP has its own Traditions (ancient as well as contemporary), its own philosophic fashions that come and go. Also, its own authority figures, and norms and wisdoms for the groups under said authority figures. Sure, it can be said that it is on Their Own Terms that someone chooses to affiliate with a group to aid their progress upon their LHP, seeking the mastery you mention. But this involves following some 'other' in the same way as someone on the RHP follows some 'other' -- to learn methods for enhancing one's own internal solitary spiritual experience.

so...

LHP = Primarily concerned with Self
RHP = Primarily concerned with Other

in many possible applications.



Actually, now, I'd like to think about what I've said,
and see if I agree with mySelf.

Many applications, but not in all, I think.

 

[Kori Houghton]

Quote:
I think I've commented in these forums before that I consider the LHP archetype to be most often a culture hero. Someone who feels compelled to break with convention for the sake of their community, often to bring about a positive outcome from a desperate situation, fully aware of the implications of violating certain cosmic laws or principles, which vary by culture.

Humans who find themselves drawn to follow the LHP are mostly not culture heroes, of course, but act in smaller ways to test and/or bend the rules of the society in which they live so that concepts guiding the interpretation and application of those rules continue to change for the health and growth of the society.


On further reflection,
I suppose a desperate societal condition for a LHPer
would be maybe something like gay rights/equality,
as this Comes Against the Freedom of the Individual in society.

I think a person's position of power and authority -- hence responsibility -- dictates what a 'desperate societal condition' can be. Personally, I would go with the preservation of the community as most desperate because without physical existence, social structures including those which protect individual liberties, lose all relevance.


Perhaps by a LHP (counter cultural) culture hero, you mean someone like Lady Gaga.
(not to start another Gaga debate. she's just the first example that came to mind)

No worries! I have nothing to say on the subject of Lady Gaga or any other pop culture personality.

No, I did not mean countercultural (so retro!) because outsider/alternative/opposition cultural manifestations become synthesized with the existing culture, causing change and being changed in the process.

Culture hero, the basics:

Culture hero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Cain]

I think Antinomianism is only One part of the LHP experience. Self-Deification being the ultimate goal for the LHP'er can be seen as the ulterior motive.

 

[Kori Houghton]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Houghton
I am thinking that the OU and SU model needs at least a couple more Universes to work for me. Tentatively I've designated them the FU and the CU, but they are not defined yet to my satisfaction.


If you don't mind, what do the F and the C stand for?

interested and curious.

Please bear in mind that my two universes are 'works in progress' and have as yet not been well-defined.

The F stands for Folk Universe, which is the biological component of the Self that we inherit from our ancestors. I kinda grabbed that name from books sitting on and around my desk...and because I like to type FU :cover:

The C stands for Culture Universe, which is a component of the Self that forms in reaction to what the WSA would call 'memes'. Encompasses everything from pop culture to the basics that all human civilizations share in common from cultural diffusion. I chose CU as a tribute to this song by Kevin Ayers:

[youtube]PL9r74SYVnM[/youtube]

At the moment, I see the FU and the CU as feeding the OU and the SU...but that is all subject to change as I consider this further.

 

[Cain]

I like it Kori . . . Creating your own Universal Paradigm is way LHP!

 

[Orias]

Is that all it takes?

Its mainly just the quest for knowledge in a Self evolving "kind' of way that involves inner and constant retrospect of the conscientious self.

I view it as a way as darkness being reborn :bat:

Of course though the topic is completely subject to perception

 

[blackout]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Houghton
I am thinking that the OU and SU model needs at least a couple more Universes to work for me. Tentatively I've designated them the FU and the CU, but they are not defined yet to my satisfaction.


If you don't mind, what do the F and the C stand for?

interested and curious.

Please bear in mind that my two universes are 'works in progress' and have as yet not been well-defined.

The F stands for Folk Universe, which is the biological component of the Self that we inherit from our ancestors. I kinda grabbed that name from books sitting on and around my desk...and because I like to type FU :cover:

The C stands for Culture Universe, which is a component of the Self that forms in reaction to what the WSA would call 'memes'. Encompasses everything from pop culture to the basics that all human civilizations share in common from cultural diffusion. I chose CU as a tribute to this song by Kevin Ayers:

[youtube]PL9r74SYVnM[/youtube]

At the moment, I see the FU and the CU as feeding the OU and the SU...but that is all subject to change as I consider this further.

Thanks for having taken the time to respond to my posts Kori.
I find your idea here thought provoking.
So after some thinking,
I'll let you know what I thought.

 

[Adramelek]

Look Kori, your most recent posts reveal a great deal of your personal ideas and philosophy. Life is always a Work in progress. After looking over your thoughts, I personally have come to the conclusion that you might indeed be very much on the Path of the Left as I define it as a life long practicioner of the Black Arts. You are your own person, you seem to follow your own Will, and are a developer of your own "belief" systems. This is an important aspect of what many of us call Black Magic.

Your friend,
/Adramelek\