What Liberals and Conservatives Agree on...

[Koldo]

So? The EC is the established system. A lot of Dems want to remove it. Ergo my point stands.

The EC being the estabilished system, and the left wanting ( on part ) to do away with it, has nothing whatsoever to do with both sides agreeing that 'The United States should be Republic with an elected head of state.'. Ergo, your point doesn't stand because it is a non sequitur.

 

[Shad]

The EC being the estabilished system, and the left wanting ( on part ) to do away with it, has nothing whatsoever to do with both sides agreeing that 'The United States should be Republic with an elected head of state.'. Ergo, your point doesn't stand because it is a non sequitur.

Wrong. The USA is a federation of sovereign states. Ergo United States of America not just America or United America. Take a civic 101 course so you gain a gasp on basic history and try again. My point stands.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In these polarised times, it is worth keeping in mind that from the age of enlightenment up until the new deal in the 1930s, what we now consider to be "liberals" and "conservatives" were basically the same. Even today, they remain committed to roughly the same liberal, democratic system but with some differences on the degree of government intervention in the economy and society and the extent of individual liberties.

Here's some things both (American) Liberals and Conservatives will probably agree on. Whilst you may not agree with everyone, or might have some reservations about each of them, chances are you agree with most of them.

1. The United States should be Republic with an elected head of state.
2. Rejection of hereditary titles of nobility
3. No religion should become an established religion with offical privallages or recognition
   
4. The seperation of powers between executive, legislative and judical branches of government
5. The independence of the judiciary from political interference (such as the executive)
6. The rule of law
7. The Presumption of innocence and the burden of proof on the accuser
   
8. Civillan control of the military and opposing military coups and dictatorships in the USA.
9. The abolition of slavery and the slave trade
10. Opposition to Child Labour
    
11. Legal equality on the basis of gender, race and religion and rejection of segregation and discrimination by the state
12. Freedom of the Press
13. Freedom of Speech
14. Freedom to peaceably assemble and the right to protest
15. Freedom of Religion and religious tolerance
16. The Right to Own Property
17. The Right to Exchange, Buy and Sell Property
18. The right to vote in free, fair and competitive elections with multiple parties (and that a one-party state isn't a "real" democracy and cannot represent the people)
19. The right to privacy and opposition to mass survaillance by governments and corporations
20. Government should not regulate people's sexual activities in the bedroom

What else do Liberals and Conservatives agree on? Can you think of any others?

For about half of those, I wouldn't say that conservatives generally agree with them.

 

[Koldo]

Wrong. The USA is a federation of sovereign states. Ergo United States of America not just America or United America. Take a civic 101 course so you gain a gasp on basic history and try again. My point stands.

Non sequitur once again.
What you are saying and "The United States should be Republic with an elected head of state." are unrelated. One has NO bearing on the other whatsoever. A republic does not require an EC, nor even a federation of sovereign states.

 

[Shad]

Non sequitur once again.

Wrong. I was providing the definition of the USA and part of that history. Try again

What you are saying and "The United States should be Republic with an elected head of state." are unrelated.

Read your point again. Notice the bold. Try again.

One has NO bearing on the other whatsoever.

Wrong as per the very name of the nation and what that means. Try again.

A republic does not require an EC, nor even a federation of sovereign states.

But the United States does. Try again. Read words, use a dictionary if you need help.

 

[Koldo]

Wrong. I was providing the definition of the USA and part of that history. Try again

Read your point again. Notice the bold. Try again.

Wrong as per the very name of the nation and what that means. Try again.

But the United States does. Try again. Read words, use a dictionary if you need help.

The United Stated, or any other country for this matter, does NOT need an EC to be a republic. Anyone that says otherwise does not understand what the word 'republic' means.

 

[Revoltingest]

The United Stated, or any other country for this matter, does NOT need an EC to be a republic.

I looked over your discussion.
You're arguing against a claim he didn't make.

As I see it.....
We are a republic.
We have the Electoral College.
Those are 2 independent features of our system.

 

[Koldo]

I looked over your discussion.
You're arguing against a claim he didn't make.

As I see it.....
We are a republic.
We have the Electoral College.
Those are 2 independent features of our system.

I agree they are independent features.
In his mind though, the fact that many on the left want to do away with the EC entails that not everyone agrees the USA should be a replubic with an elected head of state. That is what he said on his first post on this topic.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree they are independent features.
In his mind though, the fact that many on the left want to do away with the EC entails that not everyone agrees the USA should be a replubic with an elected head of state. That is what he said on his first post on this topic.

I don't see that in his posts.
Btw, the left does seem to hate the EC more, but
their ire only surfaces when they lose because of it.

I'd replace the EC just because it's strange, complex,
& introduces much strife.
I'd prefer a ranked voting system in order to avoid
3rd party spoilers making things chaotic.

 

[Koldo]

I don't see that in his posts.
Btw, the left does seem to hate the EC more, but
their ire only surfaces when they lose because of it.

I'd replace the EC just because it's strange, complex,
& introduces much strife.
I'd prefer a ranked voting system in order to avoid
3rd party spoilers making things chaotic.

Then what is his justification for saying that there is disagreement over #1 in the OP? The justification is in his first post, isn't it ?

 

[Revoltingest]

Then what is his justification for saying that there is disagreement over #1 in the OP? The justification is in his first post, isn't it ?

I think I've already gone to far speaking on his behalf.
Perhaps you & he will resolve the dispute.

 

[Shad]

The United Stated, or any other country for this matter, does NOT need an EC to be a republic. Anyone that says otherwise does not understand what the word 'republic' means.

Except the USA has one at part of it's formation. You do not understand what the United States part of USA means.

 

[Shad]

Then what is his justification for saying that there is disagreement over #1 in the OP? The justification is in his first post, isn't it ?

By looking at the definition of words. The EC system represents the State's vote for POTUS. Ergo United States. You are focusing on the wrong issue of "republic" and not looking at what USA means. One side wants elected officials via a national vote rendering the United States part moot changing the USA into just America.

 

[Koldo]

Except the USA has one at part of it's formation. You do not understand what the United States part of USA means.

Which is irrelevant as I have been pointing out.

 

[Shad]

I looked over your discussion.
You're arguing against a claim he didn't make.

As I see it.....
We are a republic.
We have the Electoral College.
Those are 2 independent features of our system.

No as the Republic of the USA was formed by sovereign independent former colonies in which the EC is the system required to even form the basic idea of the Fed government. The FEd which has limitations. Sovereign states gave up a part of their power to a unified government but not all power. To change the system removes a part of that power States never gave up which is States choose POTUS not a national population as a whole.

 

[Koldo]

By looking at the definition of words. The EC system represents the State's vote for POTUS. Ergo United States. You are focusing on the wrong issue of "republic" and not looking at what USA means. One side wants elected officials via a national vote rendering the United States part moot changing the USA into just America.

You are getting lost into the words.
Both sides want a replubic. They just want a different sort of republic.

 

[Shad]

Which is irrelevant as I have been pointing out.

Except the topic includes USA and what that means. To modify how Fed is elected to change the USA into just America

 

[Shad]

You are getting lost into the words.
Both sides want a replubic. They just want a different sort of republic.

One side wants to change the USA in a fundamental way while having no idea what USA means and the history behind why it is called the USA not just America.

 

[Koldo]

Except the topic includes USA and what that means. To modify how Fed is elected to change the USA into just America

Oh, come on...
The EC is not required to have 'United States'.
My country used to be called 'United States of Brazil' and it never had an EC.

 

[Shad]

Oh, come on...
The EC is not required to have 'United States'.

Wrong. See the Constitutional Convention. The EC was key to even getting former colonies on board with the idea of a unified nation in the form of a republic.

My country used to be called 'United States of Brazil' and it never had an EC.

So? I am talking about the US Constitution and it's history.