What kind of proof can change people’s minds? About God.

[Jeremiah Ames]

The hell/heaven balance was getting way out of whack (technical term)

So, God decided that people needed proof that he existed.


He stopped time, but allowed that humans on earth could continue as if time still occurred.

He showed himself visibly to all humans, simultaneously (perk of being omnipresent)

He spoke: You want proof, well here I am. Any questions?

An atheist raises her hand, and asks: I could be dreaming. Everything has stopped moving, except people, and you’re standing in front of me. How do I KNOW that you’re really God?

God: I am the one who stopped time but allowed you to continue as if time still went on.

Atheist: Well, there is no proof that you did that.

God: How was it done then?

Atheist: It could have been a natural occurrence. I’m sure scientists are looking into it as we speak.

God: I am going to snap my fingers and plunge the universe into complete darkness for five seconds.

God *snaps fingers. Universe is in complete darkness for 5 seconds.

Light returns.

God: Do you believe now?

Atheist: Well, there is no proof that you caused it. It was very dark for a while and I couldn’t see anything.


Simultaneously to the above exchange, a Christian evangelical talks to God

Christian: I am patiently waiting for the 1000 year reign to begin, so I can rule over all those bad people, with you of course. When will that begin?

God: Ummm, who are you? I don’t know you.

Christian: But what about the rapture?

God: I said I don’t know you.

Christian: Well, let me talk to Jesus or the Holy Spirit then. You can’t really be God if you don’t know me, I did so much in your name.

God: Are you still talking?


Similar conversations happened throughout the world.


God left, and returned the universe to where it was previous to his arrival.


All the people still had their same beliefs.


Nothing changed.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

In the past, sometimes my thoughts have drifted too far into questions like, "What if God exists but is nothing like anyone imagined, but not in a good way. The kind of person that would drive someone like Lucifer to madness?" I don't really think those thoughts are true regarding most deities. But sometimes I drift off into very deep thought.

Another thought I've come across: "What if God destroys Satan, then another equally powerful angel takes his place?"

 

[Twilight Hue]

I have it pegged if God wanted me to admit it exists, that God would have no problem doing just
that.

After all, it would take a God to know a God.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I have it pegged if God wanted me to admit it exists, that God would have no problem doing just
that.

After all, it would take a God to know a God.

are you saying that you know that you will never know God?

 

[sun rise]

All the points in the OP are, I guess, related to the Bible which many don't believe especially as literal. So it's not proof.

The only proof is internal

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The hell/heaven balance was getting way out of whack (technical term)

So, God decided that people needed proof that he existed.


He stopped time, but allowed that humans on earth could continue as if time still occurred.

He showed himself visibly to all humans, simultaneously (perk of being omnipresent)

He spoke: You want proof, well here I am. Any questions?

An atheist raises her hand, and asks: I could be dreaming. Everything has stopped moving, except people, and you’re standing in front of me. How do I KNOW that you’re really God?

God: I am the one who stopped time but allowed you to continue as if time still went on.

Atheist: Well, there is no proof that you did that.

God: How was it done then?

Atheist: It could have been a natural occurrence. I’m sure scientists are looking into it as we speak.

God: I am going to snap my fingers and plunge the universe into complete darkness for five seconds.

God *snaps fingers. Universe is in complete darkness for 5 seconds.

Light returns.

God: Do you believe now?

Atheist: Well, there is no proof that you caused it. It was very dark for a while and I couldn’t see anything.


Simultaneously to the above exchange, a Christian evangelical talks to God

Christian: I am patiently waiting for the 1000 year reign to begin, so I can rule over all those bad people, with you of course. When will that begin?

God: Ummm, who are you? I don’t know you.

Christian: But what about the rapture?

God: I said I don’t know you.

Christian: Well, let me talk to Jesus or the Holy Spirit then. You can’t really be God if you don’t know me, I did so much in your name.

God: Are you still talking?


Similar conversations happened throughout the world.


God left, and returned the universe to where it was previous to his arrival.


All the people still had their same beliefs.


Nothing changed.

I don't understand the point you're making. Can you explain?

 

[Nakosis]

Respond consistently to prayer requests.
If God would give whatever request whenever I asked it, God would have my vote.

 

[Kooky]

If religious people can remain convinced of God's existence despite the complete lack of evidence, then I don't see why the reverse couldn't also be true.

 

[George-ananda]

As an Advaita (non-dual=God and creation are not-two) pantheist I would say the only possible proof of God is a direct experience of the One Consciousness/God/Brahman. It is an internal and not an external method of proof. When all the layers of experiencing are stilled we are God. However stilling those layers is no mean feat and has been the experience of a few Self-Realized/God-Realized masters. They say once that experience occurs you will know and not just believe. For me (never having reached that level) God/Brahman is still a theory that I accept and the philosophies I subscribe to as only the best out there..

pantheism
[ˈpanTHēˌizəm]
NOUN

1. a doctrine which identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.

 

[McBell]

I don't understand the point you're making. Can you explain?

It is my opinion, and I freely admit I could very well be completely off my rocker here, that the point the OP is expressing is that no matter what is said, presented, explained, boldly stated, etc. that at least some people will never change their minds.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

All the points in the OP are, I guess, related to the Bible which many don't believe especially as literal. So it's not proof.

The only proof is internal

well said

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

-

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

As an Advaita (non-dual=God and creation are not-two) pantheist I would say the only possible proof of God is a direct experience of the One Consciousness/God/Brahman. It is an internal and not an external method of proof. When all the layers of experiencing are stilled we are God. However stilling those layers is no mean feat and has been the experience of a few Self-Realized/God-Realized masters. They say once that experience occurs you will know and not just believe. For me (never having reached that level) God/Brahman is still a theory that I accept and the philosophies I subscribe to as only the best out there..

pantheism
[ˈpanTHēˌizəm]
NOUN

1. a doctrine which identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.

thanks so much for that George

you words make wonderful sense to me

 

[Brickjectivity]

God is philosophical, contemplative. This is the basis of understanding God. You begin with assumptions, just like with all other philosophical concepts. Not with proofs. One major component is the contemplation of what reality means. The philosophy about God says that all of reality is inside of God. This is the philosophy behind most of Western civilization, the unity of all known theologies, the study of the essence of divinity without the trappings of avatars, aspects or facets.

God is also a matter of heart, as Sunrise just mentioned.

No, I'm not trying to gaslight. The thing is, lots of people (lots and lots of people) do believe and claim that believing in God is a matter of believing in proofs, but I claim they are ignorant of all that has gone before. They don't know the basis and the ground floor that sits beneath the things they teach about God. Therefore to you it may seem like I'm trying to gaslight your well constructed argument against proofs for God, but I'm not. I'm saying its an argument that addresses a strawman though not one of your making. Its someone else's strawman but is nevertheless one. In effect they have you tilting at windmills.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God *snaps fingers. Universe is in complete darkness for 5 seconds.

Ask God to do it now, not just in the books. If God cannot do it, then God is human imagination and does not exist.
So difficult to erase the childhood indoctrination and cult pride.

 

[Twilight Hue]

are you saying that you know that you will never know God?

Let me just say that it actually would take a God alone to convince me there even is one.

Well, as to the method, it's supposed to be a God right? I trust a real God would need no instruction as to how to go about it to effectively convince me.

 

[Heyo]

The hell/heaven balance was getting way out of whack (technical term)

So, God decided that people needed proof that he existed.


He stopped time, but allowed that humans on earth could continue as if time still occurred.

He showed himself visibly to all humans, simultaneously (perk of being omnipresent)

He spoke: You want proof, well here I am. Any questions?

An atheist raises her hand, and asks: I could be dreaming. Everything has stopped moving, except people, and you’re standing in front of me. How do I KNOW that you’re really God?

God: I am the one who stopped time but allowed you to continue as if time still went on.

Atheist: Well, there is no proof that you did that.

God: How was it done then?

Atheist: It could have been a natural occurrence. I’m sure scientists are looking into it as we speak.

God: I am going to snap my fingers and plunge the universe into complete darkness for five seconds.

God *snaps fingers. Universe is in complete darkness for 5 seconds.

Light returns.

God: Do you believe now?

Atheist: Well, there is no proof that you caused it. It was very dark for a while and I couldn’t see anything.


Simultaneously to the above exchange, a Christian evangelical talks to God

Christian: I am patiently waiting for the 1000 year reign to begin, so I can rule over all those bad people, with you of course. When will that begin?

God: Ummm, who are you? I don’t know you.

Christian: But what about the rapture?

God: I said I don’t know you.

Christian: Well, let me talk to Jesus or the Holy Spirit then. You can’t really be God if you don’t know me, I did so much in your name.

God: Are you still talking?


Similar conversations happened throughout the world.


God left, and returned the universe to where it was previous to his arrival.


All the people still had their same beliefs.


Nothing changed.

Did you expect that one half hour experience that is contradictory to all experiences in the life of someone change anything?
That's not how brains work. You can feed a new information into a computer and it will replace an old one. To change a mind you need to repeat the new information a few times before it can override the old one.

 

[Aupmanyav]

To change a mind you need to repeat the new information a few times before it can override the old one.

You can't even if you do it a thousand times if the disk is under a password.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The hell/heaven balance was getting way out of whack (technical term)

So, God decided that people needed proof that he existed.


He stopped time, but allowed that humans on earth could continue as if time still occurred.

He showed himself visibly to all humans, simultaneously (perk of being omnipresent)

He spoke: You want proof, well here I am. Any questions?

An atheist raises her hand, and asks: I could be dreaming. Everything has stopped moving, except people, and you’re standing in front of me. How do I KNOW that you’re really God?

God: I am the one who stopped time but allowed you to continue as if time still went on.

Atheist: Well, there is no proof that you did that.

God: How was it done then?

Atheist: It could have been a natural occurrence. I’m sure scientists are looking into it as we speak.

God: I am going to snap my fingers and plunge the universe into complete darkness for five seconds.

God *snaps fingers. Universe is in complete darkness for 5 seconds.

Light returns.

God: Do you believe now?

Atheist: Well, there is no proof that you caused it. It was very dark for a while and I couldn’t see anything.


Simultaneously to the above exchange, a Christian evangelical talks to God

Christian: I am patiently waiting for the 1000 year reign to begin, so I can rule over all those bad people, with you of course. When will that begin?

God: Ummm, who are you? I don’t know you.

Christian: But what about the rapture?

God: I said I don’t know you.

Christian: Well, let me talk to Jesus or the Holy Spirit then. You can’t really be God if you don’t know me, I did so much in your name.

God: Are you still talking?


Similar conversations happened throughout the world.


God left, and returned the universe to where it was previous to his arrival.


All the people still had their same beliefs.


Nothing changed.

I think the issue you're pointing to is that a single event like you describe could be better described by mental illness or the like than by God actually existing.

A single event, no matter how spectacular, would do nothing to resolve all the apparent discrepancies between what we would expect to see if God were real and what we actually see in the world.

What would qualify as compelling evidence for God would vary depending on the characteristics of the God, but I would personally expect something akin to the evidence we have for the Moon:

- it's often there for people to just see
- it has ubiquitous (or near-ubiquitous) measurable effects
- it can be investigated in multiple different ways through many different disciplines, all of which produce results that agree with each other.

You'd need inter-subjective verification over the long term. A one-off stunt really wouldn't cut it.

 

[Erebus]

He stopped time, but allowed that humans on earth could continue as if time still occurred.

He showed himself visibly to all humans, simultaneously (perk of being omnipresent)

He spoke: You want proof, well here I am. Any questions?

An atheist raises her hand, and asks: I could be dreaming. Everything has stopped moving, except people, and you’re standing in front of me. How do I KNOW that you’re really God?

God: I am the one who stopped time but allowed you to continue as if time still went on.

Atheist: Well, there is no proof that you did that.

God: How was it done then?

Atheist: It could have been a natural occurrence. I’m sure scientists are looking into it as we speak.

God: I am going to snap my fingers and plunge the universe into complete darkness for five seconds.

God *snaps fingers. Universe is in complete darkness for 5 seconds.

Light returns.

God: Do you believe now?

Atheist: Well, there is no proof that you caused it. It was very dark for a while and I couldn’t see anything.

There's a character in The Dresden Files book series who this made me think of. He was freed from demonic possession, granted a sword with a nail from the true cross in its hilt and tasked by the archangels to fight the powers of darkness.

He's also an atheist.

His reasoning was that the beings he sees could be aliens or he might just be mad.

This shows the problem with displays of power: they always leave room for doubt. Is the being that revealed itself to me really God or is it an immensely powerful alien? Could it even be the Devil trying to deceive me?

I would argue that if God is omnipotent and wants people to believe in him, the best way to do it is to grant people direct knowledge of his existence. There's no need to display his power over the world to me if he can just plant the certainty of his existence in my head.