What is true

[Darkdale]

LOL! That's how I knew also. She said stop, so I stopped, she looked at me and said "Why did you stop?".. So... She said stop again, I got up and left, told her I ain't playin this game. Her reality and mine were different. Subjective and relative mean about the same.

What are you talking about? You both were experiencing the exact same reality, you just both had different values. Which is what I was saying earlier in the thread.

Here is an example to help:

Person "A" is a Capitalist & Person "B" is a Socialist.

Here are three facts possible facts.

1. Individuals only pay 5% of their annual earnings in taxes.
2. The economy is growing 8% ever year, but about 15% of the population has entered a cycle of continual decline and the government can't afford to take care of them.
3. The richest man in the nation is a scientist that cured cancer, but he represents literally 5% of the national economy, because he continues to charge people for the operation that only he can give, charging $15,000 per operation.

Now, ask person "A" and person "B", "Is this society just?". You'll get different answers. So you'll want to say that this is proof that we are subjective. Wrong. Totally and utterly wrong.

Person "A" and person "B" have different values, but all of the realities are the same. We can agree on the above three facts, but because we have different values, we come to different conclusions about whether or not the society is just. Reality is objective, but we all have different values and so we draw different conclusions about what reality means. But the meaning of something has nothing to do with the thing itself (the reality)... it has to do with your values and how you feel about that reality. Feelings are subjective; that is to say, your feelings only say something about you.

 

[1nharmony]

I am not sure I go along with that, Darkdale (well, in some areas at any rate); there are subjective truths which are in fact myths; the anorexic who looks in a mirror and says "I am fat".....to that person, it is a truth;

Throughout this thread I am in agreement with Darkdale. My comment on michel's quote (above) is that the anorexic who says "I am fat" is not stating a truth, but rather a belief. And therein lies the biggest problem with much of religious dialogue - so many are adamant that their beliefs are in fact truths.

 

[jeffrey]

Darkdale, I find your reasoning subjective. I'll leave it at that!

 

[Darkdale]

Darkdale, I find your reasoning subjective. I'll leave it at that!

Well, now you are talking about your feelings. If you were talking about your thoughts I would ask you to demonstrate how my reasoning is subjective, but I have a feeling that would only lead us further down this winding road.

 

[jeffrey]

I'm not at a pc. I can't copy and paste. I'm in a pretty good mood, and don't feel like arguing. And like I said, I Agree with most of what you say, but IMO, there are exceptions to every rule. But to me, reality IS relative to yourself and your surroundings.

 

[A. Leaf]

Their is one sure Truth and that is what you have done in your life, whether it is good or bad only you know, or perhaps friend or colleagues have been present while you have done something, that is a Truth for sure, whether anybody else belives you when you tell them your truths is another question. Of course the if you are a beliver, then the Lord Almighty knows what you have been up to and knows all Truths, if your an evolusionist you still want to know the truth. I thought the Truth is what we all search for.

 

[Darkdale]

I'm not at a pc. I can't copy and paste. I'm in a pretty good mood, and don't feel like arguing. And like I said, I Agree with most of what you say, but IMO, there are exceptions to every rule. But to me, reality IS relative to yourself and your surroundings.

lol ok. well, if you ever get around to it, you should demonstrate how there are exceptions to every rule, and how that "fact" (you've already contradicted yourself here) makes truth relative.

 

[Bangbang]

truth is the opposite of false

 

[herospirit]

I am surprised this thread grew this quickly, and am having to jump into the debate so...
What seems to have become an issue is that everything has an exception... This is an interesting statement much like the one I analyzed earlier. If everything has an exception, then their is no exception to the statement itself. But by being false it too is self-justifying. By being false you are viewing the exception to the statement. It is thoughts like these that we need to get to. Don't just think far enought to see something is false, because both can just ase easily be true. It is in this reasoning that I believe truth to be entirely perspective. Making their no such thing as "blind" faith.

 

[spookboy0]

What do you mean, HeroSpirit? If there is truth according to our perceptions? Or is there an absolute truth in the universe?

 

[herospirit]

What do you mean, HeroSpirit? If there is truth according to our perceptions? Or is there an absolute truth in the universe?

Their are different levels of truth apparently. I wont to investigate them all, see how they work. Gain insight to individuals as well as the universe. Unlike science, that simply wont to know what it is made up of. They call that truth. I am fascinated with metaphysical philosophy.
Which is more conserned with why when science seems concerned with how, and how when science is concerned with why. I have a system of truth that I can live by, which seems far more important to me than how many electrons an atom has. Truth has one face with many perspectives. Man alone cannot see them all, failing many times to see what is true. How many times have you realized in the aftermath that you were in the wrong. I seek a way around this. I wont to know what truth is so that I can escape my human fate. That I can see truth in the eyes, grasp it, and never let go. Not for pride...But for love. The one thing I have noticed beyond everything else is that love is always true. Always.

 

[Darkdale]

I am surprised this thread grew this quickly, and am having to jump into the debate so...
What seems to have become an issue is that everything has an exception... This is an interesting statement much like the one I analyzed earlier. If everything has an exception, then their is no exception to the statement itself. But by being false it too is self-justifying. By being false you are viewing the exception to the statement. It is thoughts like these that we need to get to. Don't just think far enought to see something is false, because both can just ase easily be true. It is in this reasoning that I believe truth to be entirely perspective. Making their no such thing as "blind" faith.

Well, this is certainly that complete opposite of Objective Reasoning, but that's ok. One of the things I've always told my friends and family, is that other people should be encouraged to have faith, to be subjective, to follow their hearts and so forth, because that allows Objectivists to have something to compare themselves to, and to every day have Objectivism reenforced. The Fantasy world, where everything is however you wish it to be is a lovely idea... where all things are justified and there are no standards to which we must hold. Certainly reason and objectivity must be destroyed before we can enjoy modern art and Dave Chapple, as a culture.

But I think that in the end this is a personal choice. For example, I believe in all the gods, even though I only worship one group. Why? How do I justify this "faith" in things I cannot see or understand? I made a choice. I looked at my options: 1. All Gods Exist. 2. No Gods Exist. 3. Some Gods Exist. 4. One God Exists. I choose option one. It was not a rational decision, nor was it objective. I do not know that it is true... I don't really even have any faith that it is true. I simply choose to believe it because I want to. That is what blind faith is. That is what people have when they have faith, whether they are willing to admit it or not. Subjectivity says, "Reality be damned", and makes a choice based on what one wants to believe. I think this is OK to do in the area of religion... it fills in some blanks and creates a story in your mind for the unknown. But this is not OK for science, it is not OK for philosophy, and it is not OK for your average, daily belief. There is blind faith - it's the faith without objective verification.

 

[hero]

If the truth is how you live your life that is not the matter of truth but the matter of taste. The truth for one individual are not necessary true for another, this kind of positon violates the Law of noncontradiction, because there is no truth at the same time at the same sense. Since there is no truth at the same time at the same sense it meant truth is an expression, symbols or statement that matches or corresponds to its referent. therefore truth needs evidence.

And what is it that makes that true? hehehe. This really is a funny topic, and it cannot be structured by any law, when it is the law.

 

[mr.guy]

If everything has an exception, then their is no exception to the statement itself.

Not true. If semantics is the game, then "no-thing" would be an exception to everything.

 

[Darkdale]

Not true. If semantics is the game, then "no-thing" would be an exception to everything.

I think he was operating from the fallacy of "the exception that proves the rule". But you are quite right.

 

[hero]

The truth is its 6am here and im tired, and this is too heavy for me...... NEED TEA!

Funny thing is. That is only true once a day. Leaving excetions to its truth.

 

[joeboonda]

Blind faith. No, I gotta have more than that. I choose 'one God', the God of the Bible, because, for one important thing. God says, in the Bible, that He is God, that beside Him there are no other Gods, and to prove it He said He would tell us things that would happen in the future, (a prophesy), and that they would happen just as He said and we would know He is God. When I study Bible Prophesy, I am amazed at the 100% accuracy in every detail of every prophecy that has taken place thus far, and thus I accept that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is the God that created the Heavens and the Earth and reigns from Heaven above. Paul even said that the things people sacrifice to idols of their gods, they really sacrifice to devils. God, Our Father in Heaven, is the One true God, I have His Word on it.

 

[Darkdale]

Blind faith. No, I gotta have more than that. I choose 'one God', the God of the Bible, because, for one important thing. God says, in the Bible, that He is God, that beside Him there are no other Gods, and to prove it He said He would tell us things that would happen in the future, (a prophesy), and that they would happen just as He said and we would know He is God. When I study Bible Prophesy, I am amazed at the 100% accuracy in every detail of every prophecy that has taken place thus far, and thus I accept that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is the God that created the Heavens and the Earth and reigns from Heaven above. Paul even said that the things people sacrifice to idols of their gods, they really sacrifice to devils. God, Our Father in Heaven, is the One true God, I have His Word on it.

I just think it is strange that people with no real ethnic or cultural ties to the Middle East, would follow a Middle Eastern tradition. I mean, if I wanted to be "christian", I think I'd go the Mormon route, as it is an American version of the broader tradition.

I see the gods as being tied to "a people", not to all people; tied to a culture, but not all cultures. I think culture is the reason why there are so many different breeds of Christianity - why Southern Baptists and New England Catholics hardly agree on anything in practice.

I'm not saying you are wrong to follow a Middle Eastern tradition, I'm just saying that I don't really understand it.

 

[Peacemaker]

From what I have read this debate has gotten off topic. So I will try to present some food for thought pertaining the original statement. Is truth as simple as right and wrong, true and false. Only in factuality. But is anything factual. A fact is anything that can be proven. I could say that if I drop my book it will fall to the ground. That can be proven. But their are exceptions. Their are exceptions to any "factual" statement. Factuality cannot be universal, yet their is such a thing as a universal truth. Or is their. Many believe so. Their is logic that discerns truth by relativity. By having the same logic, the same truth is relevant to two situations,3,4,5, etc... Factuality can reference specific truth absolutely. Example: If I drop this book standing in my room 9:36 PM it will hit the floor. For reference I really just did and it hit the floor. But none of you would consider that a "fact", because the specifics of the task was not witness and thus fallible. Yet I assure you it is true. Maybe the point in all this is that factuality is not necessarily true. And that truth can only be found within.????

 

[PureX]

What is truth. Someone can say something is true and it not be true. Yet to them it is true because they hold it true. To you it is false, but to them it is true. You can prove something, but to what someone believes, it may have no avail. Truth has then become what someone acknowledges. No matter how much knowledge anyone has, what is true is what they ac"knowledge". In this sense anything can be true. Truth doesn't need evidence. Perhaps it can be extracted from it. A basis for it. Yet not it itself. So what is true. Maybe truth is how you live your life. What is true is how you hold it.

Anyone who has any thoughts too add to this weird and drawn out thought please do.

It's important to understand the difference between truth, and what we believe to be true. The "truth" is what is, regardless of whether we believe it or are aware of it or not. And what we believe to be true may be true or it may not be, even though it will be true to us, until we're shown otherwise, and so no longer believe it's true (and we could still be wrong).

The second thing that it's important to remember is that we human beings are limited in our ability to perceive "what is". and also in our ability to understand even what little we do perceive. So what we can know of the "truth" is both limited and relative. We don't get to "know the truth". We only get to think we know the truth based on what little information we have, and based on our limited ability to understand that information.

Like it or not, we human beings are profoundly ignorant of the true nature of our own existence. We don't know where we come from, we don't know why we're here, and we don't know if we go anywhere else when we are no longer here, and as a result, we don't know if we're supposed to do anything in particular while we're here. And without knowing such essential truths about ourselves, we are left profoundly ignorant.