What is the meaning of Acts 1:9-11?

[URAVIP2ME]

They had a vision (they saw things) and heard the Father's voice.
It does not say that they were asleep.
It does not say that Moses and Elias did not actually appear to and speak to Jesus. It does not say that Jesus did not actually shine.
"Vision" means what they saw................................

Moses and Elijah (Elias KJV) are still asleep in the grave - Acts 24:15 - ' there will be ' a resurrection..... ( future tense )
Jesus was clear the Transfiguration was a VISION according to Matthew 17:9
A vision or a preview, a coming attraction of Jesus' coming Glory Time as found at Matthew 25:31-34; Matthew 16:27

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The text tells us that the disciples saw Jesus going up and that a cloud hid Him from their sight.
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The disciples had seen Jesus ascend (not an invisible spirit) and the same Jesus, whom they had seen ascend, would return.

The disciples saw the spirit resurrected Jesus using a materialized body til the clouds hid him from their sight.
Remember: John 14:19 because the world will see Jesus No more.
What the world will see is 'the action' taken at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15
The ' sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth ' will rid the Earth of those causing ruin to Earth - Rev. 11:18 B.

 

[Brian2]

No, Jesus did Not rise physically/bodily.
Rather Jesus used materialized bodies after he was resurrected back to his previous pre-human heavenly body.
Remember: ' Flesh and blood ' (physical) can Not inherit Heaven - see 1st Cor. 15:50
Remember: On the road to Emmaus the disciples did Not recognize the resurrected Jesus - Luke 24:13-16
They were kept from recognizing Jesus because Jesus was Not in his old physical body.
Remmeber: a physical body does Not appear in a closed indoor room as Jesus did at John 20:19,26.
Plus, at 1st Peter 3:18 we find the word 'spirit' Jesus made alive (resurrected) in the spirit, his heavenly spirit body.

Remember this passage which tells us that the resurrection included the human body of Jesus.
Matt 28:5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; He has risen, just as He said! Come, see the place where He lay.

So what happened to Jesus at the resurrection is what we are told will happen to us.
Our physical human bodies will be resurrected but transformed to our resurrection bodies, which are immortal. (see 1Cor 15)
We do not know what these bodies are capable of, so cannot say Jesus was a spirit who conjured up a physical body when needed after the resurrection. That is clearly going beyond what the scripture tells us.
Luke 24 and John 20 has Jesus telling the disciples that He was not a spirit but that it was Him, Jesus who was killed and still had nail holes.
But I understand that the Watch Tower want their followers to believe Jesus was deceiving them and us for the sake of convincing them that He had risen.
1Peter 3:18 imo is telling us something Jesus did between the time He died and was resurrected.
The transformed resurrection body is immortal and incorruptible and is not the same flesh and blood body that was buried. That body died and was changed to the resurrection body (see 1Cor 15)
The nature of the first Adam is that of a living soul, which He became.
The last Adam had a different nature, a spiritual nature and so not only has He risen in His resurrection body but also He comes to live in Christians as a life giving Spirit.
1Cor 15: 42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

John 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) asked Him, “Lord, why are You going to reveal Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So the voice that the disciples heard out of the cloud was the voice of God. All of that was a vision, not anything that literally happened.
I wonder why Jesus said: Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
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I think that Jesus' vision of 'rising from the dead' could have been a spiritual vision of what Jesus knew would happen in the future, ...

Yes, the Transfiguration was a VISION according to Matthew 17:9
The Bible was Not originally written in King James English.
In the Greek Interlinear the word ' again ' does Not appear. The added word 'again' is a KJV add on.
Jesus rising from the dead would be in a spirit body - 1st Peter 3:18 B
God resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human heavenly spirit person body - Hebrews 9:24

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense and explains a lot of things we read in the Bible.
I believe that if Jesus was seen after the death of his mortal body it would have been in a new form which I refer to as a spiritual body.
The spiritual body could have looked just like His physical body to the people who saw Jesus, yet not be physical.

But since Jesus used different materialized physical bodies is why resurrected Jesus was Not readily recognized.
- Luke 24:13-18
So, Jesus resurrected ' spirit body ' was his pre-human heavenly spirit body he had before God sent Jesus to Earth for us.

 

[Brian2]

The disciples saw the spirit resurrected Jesus using a materialized body til the clouds hid him from their sight.

Materialised body? Sounds like something someone made up. Jesus rose bodily into His resurrection body. (Matt 28:6)

Remember: John 14:19 because the world will see Jesus No more.

Jesus said that before He was crucified, or iow, while the world was still seeing Him.
Are you saying that when the disciples saw the resurrected Jesus, that they did not really see Jesus?
Are you saying that when Rev 1 tells us that all eyes will see Jesus, that they really won't see Jesus?
Doesn't John 14:19 just mean that Jesus was saying that He was going to die and go to heaven and won't be hanging around on earth because He had done (almost) what He had been sent to do.

 

[Brian2]

Moses and Elijah (Elias KJV) are still asleep in the grave - Acts 24:15 - ' there will be ' a resurrection..... ( future tense )

1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,4 that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and rwith the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be tcaught up together with them uin the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so vwe will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Notice that Jesus is going to bring those who are dead, dead Christians, so that they can be resurrected.
The ones He brings are the souls of the dead, eg Rev 6:9-11, there are souls in heaven awaiting the resurrection imo

Jesus was clear the Transfiguration was a VISION according to Matthew 17:9
A vision or a preview, a coming attraction of Jesus' coming Glory Time as found at Matthew 25:31-34; Matthew 16:27

A "vision" is just what they saw.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That’s not the reason, Believers understand the Scriptures when they say in plain language who Jesus Christ is and one of those books of the Bible is Revelation of Jesus Christ:
”Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭7‬-‭8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
He has the marks in His body:
”The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”“
‭‭John‬ ‭20‬:‭25‬-‭27‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
He eats food and says He isn’t a spirit but flesh and bones, resurrected:
”And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence.“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24‬:‭38‬-‭39‬, ‭41‬-‭43‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

These are all things that can occur in a vision or dream. Haven’t you ever had a dream? If the disciples saw Moses and Elias and the Heavenly Father and Christ transfigured in a vision then this can be a vision too. I’ve had dreams where I’ve flown in the sky, ate food, laughed and spoke with others and so have billions. There is absolutely no grounds or evidence or proof that this is nothing but a spiritual vision like Mount Tabor.

Daniel had visions where He saw angels, asked questions and received replies yet they were visions. Ezekial too had visions of the Glory of God. The Bible does not teach superstition but things like spiritual visions or waking dreams are seen throughout the Bible. These make perfect sense. The resurrection is no different.

 

[ElishaElijah]

These are all things that can occur in a vision or dream. Haven’t you ever had a dream? If the disciples saw Moses and Elias and the Heavenly Father and Christ transfigured in a vision then this can be a vision too. I’ve had dreams where I’ve flown in the sky, ate food, laughed and spoke with others and so have billions. There is absolutely no grounds or evidence or proof that this is nothing but a spiritual vision like Mount Tabor.

Daniel had visions where He saw angels, asked questions and received replies yet they were visions. Ezekial too had visions of the Glory of God. The Bible does not teach superstition but things like spiritual visions or waking dreams are seen throughout the Bible. These make perfect sense. The resurrection is no different.

The Bible tells you when they are dreams and when they aren’t, even when they are dreams as in Danial there were specific interpretations of those dreams.
The resurrection is different because Jesus Christ walked the earth for 40 Days and then gave instructions to the disciples. If it was a dream or vision the Bible says that. Just because a person has a dream or vision doesn’t mean everything is a dream and vision.

 

[CG Didymus]

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

I believe it means that the same Jesus who was taken up into heaven as His disciples watched, would come back in the same way that they saw Him go.
I do not believe that it means that someone else who had never been to earth (Baha'u'llah) would come to earth in a different way than the disciples saw Jesus go to heaven.
I also think it says that the disciples saw Jesus ascend to heaven and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
I don't believe it says that Jesus ascended as a spirit.

I've got tons of reasons not to believe the story is true, but I do agree with you that the story says that Jesus, not a spirit ascended and it will be this same Jesus that will return. We already had Jesus tell the disciples that he was flesh and bone and not a ghost and that he had indeed risen of the dead. So, the grand miracle here would be similar... it was a flesh and bone Jesus that ascended.

Of course, that doesn't fit well with the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith, so what can they do but find a way to make it fit. Making Jesus physically dead, and not having come back to life, and having his spirit ascend is a perfect fit for Baha'is.

But Baha'is have already made his resurrection symbolic, so what were people now looking at? Jesus, for them, wasn't there. He was in his grave rotting away. The ascension story is just the completion of the resurrection story. And if it was only symbolic then his ascension also didn't happen but was only symbolic.

For me, if people don't want to believe the resurrection and ascension were true, I can understand that. But don't make up such complex ways to explain it. Just do what most people that don't believe it do... They say it was made-up. But Baha'is can't do that. They need a way to make the Jesus story true in some ways and not true in others. Calling those things that they don't believe are true "symbolic" is the best way for them to accomplish that.

 

[CG Didymus]

People believe ridiculous thingsYou'reve argued for many things that I consider ridiculous; this doesn't mean I should consider you insincere, does it?

Hmmm? Bodies don't ascend or resurrect? In the NT and the Hebrew Bible, they do. And they walk on water, fly off in a fiery chariot, animals talk, walking sticks turn into snakes etc. If Baha'i don't want to believe these things really happened, then join those of us that say those stories were all just myths and legends. Maybe some based on real events, but then embellished with great miracles.

But for those that sincerely believe those stories, they have no problem believing their God can cause those things to happen. The Baha'i God? I guess not.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible tells you when they are dreams and when they aren’t,

Yes, but this is just another way that Baha'is try to explain away verses that contradict their beliefs. The attempt is to make people see these verses in a different way.... that the story didn't have to be something that really happened. So, the story was symbolic, and the writers were writing a fictional story like a parable. Or... the story was a dream or a vision.

But, like you said, the writers tell us when it is a dream or vision or when it is a parable. The resurrection and ascension were written as if it really happened. They go out of their way to say that they and others witnessed these things, and that they saw the resurrected Jesus and even touch him.

The Baha'is have a lot of positive things going for them, but this, I believe, is not one of them. If they don't believe the stories, then I think they should just say that those things didn't happen.

 

[King Phenomenon]

“Jesus” is on earth now and when he dies, he will be reborn with a new earth in my opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, the Transfiguration was a VISION according to Matthew 17:9
The Bible was Not originally written in King James English.
In the Greek Interlinear the word ' again ' does Not appear. The added word 'again' is a KJV add on.

Yes, I see the KJV was corrected in the NKJV.

Most other translations also say risen/raised from the dead, not risen again from the dead.
That is an important difference since it changes the meaning. If Jesus was risen again from the dead that would me an He rose from the dead before, but until the Son of Man is risen from the dead means that Jesus will be risen from the dead that is in the future, a future resurrection.

Matthew 17:9

KJ21
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, “Tell the vision to no man until the Son of Man be risen again from the dead."

NKJV
Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead."

ESV
And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."

NIV
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

Jesus rising from the dead would be in a spirit body - 1st Peter 3:18 B

I believe you are correct about that, and the verse below confirms that Jesus was raised in a spirit body, not in a flesh body.

1st Peter 3:18

KJ21
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit,

NKJV
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

NIV
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

ESV
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

God resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human heavenly spirit person body - Hebrews 9:24

Hebrews 9:24
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

That concurs with the following verses:

1 Corinthians 15
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

Well, since heaven is a holy place that means that Jesus did not enter heaven in a physical body. Of course that would mean that the physical body was not what the disciples saw taken up when they were looking up into the sky:

Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

 

[Trailblazer]

The Baha'is have a lot of positive things going for them, but this, I believe, is not one of them. If they don't believe the stories, then I think they should just say that those things didn't happen.

That IS what we say and so do a lot of other people.

 

[Trailblazer]

But Baha'is have already made his resurrection symbolic, so what were people now looking at? Jesus, for them, wasn't there. He was in his grave rotting away. The ascension story is just the completion of the resurrection story. And if it was only symbolic then his ascension also didn't happen but was only symbolic.

Neither the resurrection story nor the ascension story are symbolic.
Both of them are just stories men wrote, fictional stories, not true stories, since they never happened.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmmm? Bodies don't ascend or resurrect? I

No, not in reality, only in Christian belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

The text tells us that the disciples saw Jesus going up and that a cloud hid Him from their sight.

In light of what @URAVIP2ME and others have said on this thread, I now believe that if the story is true, I mean if the disciples saw anything going up, it was the spiritual body of Jesus.

Hebrews 9:24
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

That concurs with the following verses:

1 Corinthians 15
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

Well, since heaven is a holy place that means that Jesus did not enter heaven in a physical body. Of course that would mean that the physical body was not what the disciples saw taken up when they were looking up into the sky:

Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

We are told that the disciples saw Jesus ascend and that a cloud hid Him from their sight.
They kept looking and the angel asked why. There was nothing to see because the cloud had hidden Jesus from their sight.
Do you think that the disciples saw an invisible spirit ascend or what?

No, I have now changed my position. I believe that if the disciples saw anything it was the spiritual body of Jesus.

The text tells us that the same Jesus, not the same Christ Spirit.
The disciples had seen Jesus ascend (not an invisible spirit) and the same Jesus, whom they had seen ascend, would return.

The problem is, the verses do not say that the disciples saw anything. Read the verses carefully. Nobody said that they saw anything, neither the two men in while linen nor the disciples. Acts 1:9 says that Jesus was taken up before their very eyes, but it does not say that the disciples saw Jesus. I never noticed that before I started this thread.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Yes, the text says 'this same Jesus' - not the same Christ Spirit. But that doesn't mean it was the same Jesus who would return rather than the Christ Spirit. Bear in mind that at the time that this text was written the men who wrote it probably believed that the same Jesus would return someday, and that is why it was written that way. At that time nobody had ever heard of Baha'u'llah or anything He wrote, so why would they even suspect that Christ would return in another person? Now, owing to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, we can know what the Bible meant in retrospect, but if Baha'u'llah had not come we would all still be living in darkness.

Who wrote this text and why are you relying upon three verses out of everything else that is in the NT to base your whole belief on? I would not bet my eternal life on three verses that are not even anything that Jesus said.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'i quotes that support their belief the resurrection and ascension were symbolic...

From Abdul Baha​

The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.​

​

Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection....
"Some Answered Questions", rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), p. 104​

​

From letters written on behalf of the Guardian​

​

We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after resurrection is the same thing.
9 October 1947 to an individual believer​

​

The two Biblical verses you had enclosed for explanation on behalf of Dr. ...; the Guardian wishes you to explain to him that these passages are allegorical, and should not be taken literally. They indicate the reality of the presence of the Spirit of Christ and not His bodily resurrection....
14 August 1937 to an individual believer in response to a request for an explanation of the Biblical verses Luke 24:39 and John 20:24-29 for a person who was investigating the Teachings of the Faith.​

 

[Trailblazer]

This thread was intended to be about Acts 1:9-11, but since it drifted off on the topic of the resurrection of Jesus and what Baha'is believe about that I will note that Baha'is are allowed to believe whatever we want to believe, so we are not required to believe that the NT verses about the resurrection of Jesus are symbolic or allegorical.

I don't believe those verses are symbolic or allegorical, I simply do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead and as such I do not believe those stories were true stories but rather I believe they are fictional stories. I think it is possible that Jesus rose in a spiritual body which was thought by those who saw Him to be physical, but I do not believe that the physical body of Jesus came back to life, as Christians believe.