What is the meaning of Acts 1:9-11?

[Trailblazer]

@Brian2 and I have been discussing the following verses and what they mean for over 10 years. The discussion began on another forum and it has continued here. This thread was inspired by the following post on another thread.

In post #690, @Brian2 said:
We start off with the idea that Jesus rose bodily from the dead, as the gospels stories tell us. Then we have the disciples and Jesus (in His resurrection body presumably) ascending in front of His disciples and being hidden by cloud.
It's not complicated really. Just read it slowly and think about it as you do, I'm sure you will be able to see it. Give it a go.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”


I could not figure out how to insert a Poll, so please select one or more from the following options.

a. I believe that Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky in His resurrection body in front of His disciples. I also believe that Jesus will return to earth, descending from heaven on the clouds.

b. I do not believe that Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky in His resurrection body in front of His disciples. I also do not believe that Jesus will return to earth, descending from heaven on the clouds.

c. I believe that those verses have another meaning, different from what @Brian2 believes. They are about the return of Christ, but not about the return of the same man who was called Jesus.

d. I believe that those verses are only part of a made-up fictional story, not about anything that ever happened or ever will ever happen.

 

[danieldemol]

(D)

 

[1213]

a. I believe that Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky in His resurrection body in front of His disciples. I also believe that Jesus will return to earth, descending from heaven on the clouds.

b. I do not believe that Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky in His resurrection body in front of His disciples. I also do not believe that Jesus will return to earth, descending from heaven on the clouds.

I think Bible means what it says:
And saying these things, as they looked on, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him from their eyes. And as they were intently looking into the heaven, He having gone, even behold, two men in white clothing stood by them, who also said, Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking up to the heaven? This Jesus, the One being taken from you into the heaven, will come in the way you saw Him going into the heaven.

However, in Bible there is for example third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2). That is why the heaven in this is not necessary the clouds, or space, but for example higher state of existence.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think Bible means what it says:
And saying these things, as they looked on, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him from their eyes. And as they were intently looking into the heaven, He having gone, even behold, two men in white clothing stood by them, who also said, Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking up to the heaven? This Jesus, the One being taken from you into the heaven, will come in the way you saw Him going into the heaven.

But what the Bible says is subject to interpretation. That us why the same words do not mean the same thing to everyone.

This Jesus, the One being taken from you into the heaven, will come in the way you saw Him going into the heaven.

Do you believe that means that the physical body of Jesus was taken up into the physical clouds in the sky and will return from heaven in the physical clouds in the sky?

However, in Bible there is for example third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2). That is why the heaven in this is not necessary the clouds, or space, but for example higher state of existence.

I do not believe that heaven is a geographical location above the earth thus above the clouds. I believe it is a spiritual world, another dimension that we cannot see, although it is not really separate from this world.

 

[1213]

Do you believe that means that the physical body of Jesus was taken up into the physical clouds in the sky and will return from heaven in the physical clouds in the sky?

Bible tells Jesus was somehow changed. And Bible speaks of spiritual body:
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Cor. 15:44

That is why I think the body that was risen was not exactly the same as earthly body. But, it was physical also. And that is why I think the return will also be physical, the same way.

I do not believe that heaven is a geographical location above the earth thus above the clouds. I believe it is a spiritual world, another dimension that we cannot see, although it is not really separate from this world.

I also believe that it is higher state than the physical state. However, I think his return will be visible physically.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But what the Bible says is subject to interpretation. That us why the same words do not mean the same thing to everyone.

Any interpretation of a text has to have some reason behind it for the interpretation to be honest. Generally, our interpretation should be based on clues about what the author meant.

"I don't like interpretation X, so I'll go with interpretation Y instead" doesn't cut it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

@Brian2 and I have been discussing the following verses and what they mean for over 10 years. The discussion began on another forum and it has continued here. This thread was inspired by the following post on another thread.

In post #690, @Brian2 said:
We start off with the idea that Jesus rose bodily from the dead, as the gospels stories tell us. Then we have the disciples and Jesus (in His resurrection body presumably) ascending in front of His disciples and being hidden by cloud.
It's not complicated really. Just read it slowly and think about it as you do, I'm sure you will be able to see it. Give it a go.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”


I could not figure out how to insert a Poll, so please select one or more from the following options.

a. I believe that Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky in His resurrection body in front of His disciples. I also believe that Jesus will return to earth, descending from heaven on the clouds.

b. I do not believe that Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky in His resurrection body in front of His disciples. I also do not believe that Jesus will return to earth, descending from heaven on the clouds.

c. I believe that those verses have another meaning, different from what @Brian2 believes. They are about the return of Christ, but not about the return of the same man who was called Jesus.

d. I believe that those verses are only part of a made-up fictional story, not about anything that ever happened or ever will ever happen.

I personally believe D, but I believe that the author of the text is trying to express A.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

(D)

 

[Trailblazer]

Bible tells Jesus was somehow changed. And Bible speaks of spiritual body:
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Cor. 15:44

I believe that is what happened to Jesus when He died. He was buried as a natural human body and raised as a spiritual body.

I believe that 1 Cor. 15:44 is referring to what will happen to everyone when their physical bodies die. Please note that they say They, Our, and We.
We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! We will be transformed from a physical body into a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.​

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!​

That is why I think the body that was risen was not exactly the same as earthly body. But, it was physical also. And that is why I think the return will also be physical, the same way.

There is no such thing as a body that is BOTH physical and spiritual. Physical bodies are for living on earth and spiritual bodies are for living in heaven. That is why the verse says:

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

I also believe that it is higher state than the physical state. However, I think his return will be visible physically.

I agree that the spiritual body is a higher state than a physical body, but I do not believe the same Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago is going to return to earth, since Jesus said He was no more in this world and we would see Him no more.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.​

​

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.​

​

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.​

​

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.​

 

[Trailblazer]

Any interpretation of a text has to have some reason behind it for the interpretation to be honest. Generally, our interpretation should be based on clues about what the author meant.

"I don't like interpretation X, so I'll go with interpretation Y instead" doesn't cut it.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

How do you think we can KNOW what the author meant? Those verses are very ambiguous.

It is also important to note that the verses do not say that the angels (men dressed in white linen) saw a physical body go up.
It is reading into the text to insist it was a physical body that they saw ascend.

It is also important to note that even if the author was trying to express (a), that does not mean that (a) ever actually happened or will happen in the future.

There is no reason to believe that the author knew what he was talking about. He might have believed that is what happened and what will happen in the future but that doesn't mean he was correct.

It is also important to note that that (a) is a 2nd century understanding of what happened.
People living in the 21st century know that bodies do not ascend into the clouds or drop down out of the clouds, thus defying gravity.
I have a different interpretation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

How do you think we can KNOW what the author meant? Those verses are very ambiguous.

In what way are they ambiguous?

It is also important to note that the verses do not say that the angels (men dressed in white linen) saw a physical body go up.
It is reading into the text to insist it was a physical body that they saw ascend.

The text doesn't describe causes; it's a purported eyewitness account.

It is also important to note that even if the author was trying to express (a), that does not mean that (a) ever actually happened or will happen in the future.

Indeed. I think the story has no basis in fact. I think the most reasonable explanation is that the purported event didn't happen at all and the story is made up.

But this is separate from what the author is trying to express: that eyewitnesses watched Jesus rise bodily into the clouds.

There is no reason to believe that the author knew what he was talking about. He might have believed that is what happened and what will happen in the future but that doesn't mean he was correct.

Whether he's correct is a separate question from what he was trying to express.

It is also important to note that that (a) is a 2nd century understanding of what happened.
People living in the 21st century know that bodies do not ascend into the clouds or drop down out of the clouds, thus defying gravity.

I agree that the story is ridiculous to a modern audience. However, this fact is irrelevant to the question of what the second-century author was trying to express.

I have a different interpretation.

What's your interpretation?

 

[Trailblazer]

In what way are they ambiguous?

"This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

The verse does not say in what way they saw Jesus taken into heaven.

The text doesn't describe causes; it's a purported eyewitness account.

That is correct. It is what two men dressed in white purportedly saw, but it does not say that they saw the body of Jesus go up.

"This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Indeed. I think the story has no basis in fact. I think the most reasonable explanation is that the purported event didn't happen at all and the story is made up.

But this is separate from what the author is trying to express: that eyewitnesses watched Jesus rise bodily into the clouds.

The verse does not say that they saw the body of Jesus taken up to heaven. It could have been the spirit of Jesus that they saw. Bear in mind that the two men dressed in white were angels, and angels can see spirits.

Whether he's correct is a separate question from what he was trying to express.

I agree that the story is ridiculous to a modern audience. However, this fact is irrelevant to the question of what the second-century author was trying to express.

True. But we cannot know for sure what the author was trying to express. Some Christians such as @Brian2 simply assume it was a body that they saw go up, but they believe that because that is what they want to believe since it supports heir belief that Jesus will return in the same body.

What's your interpretation?

The disciples (Men of Galilee) were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky, and then they said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. The text does not say that the disciples saw a body go up to heaven.

I believe it was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at that the disciples could see; but angels can see spirits, so the angels could see the spirit of Jesus ascend into the clouds.

"This same Jesus .... will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven"

I believe that means that the same spirit of Jesus (the Christ Spirit) will come down from heaven and will appear in the form of a human being who has the Christ Spirit. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, the soul of Jesus came down from heaven. The soul of the man who has the Christ Spirit (and thus is the return of Christ) will come down from heaven in the same way that Jesus came down from heaven. He will be sent by God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

The verse does not say in what way they saw Jesus taken into heaven.

Yes, it does: "he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight."

That is correct. It is what two men dressed in white purportedly saw, but it does not say that they saw the body of Jesus go up.

No, the two men in white show up partway through the story. It's recounting the perspective of other purported eyewitnesses.

What other things do you think they could be describing besides Jesus riding bodily?

"This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

The verse does not say that they saw the body of Jesus taken up to heaven. It could have been the spirit of Jesus that they saw. Bear in mind that the two men dressed in white were angels, and angels can see spirits.

This is a stretch. And as I mentioned above, the story is recounting from the perspective of other (purported) witnesses, not the angels. This is the story supposedly from the witnesses who saw both Jesus rising into the clouds and the angels.

True. But we cannot know for sure what the author was trying to express.

It seems clear enough to me.

Some Christians such as @Brian2 simply assume it was a body that they saw go up, but they believe that because that is what they want to believe since it supports heir belief that Jesus will return in the same body.

What I see here is motivated reasoning on your part. The straightforward interpretation of the passage doesn't match the Baha'i understanding, so you're doing mental gymnastics.

The disciples (Men of Galilee) were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky, and then they said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. The text does not say that the disciples saw a body go up to heaven.

Yes, it does: "he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight."

I believe it was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at that the disciples could see; but angels can see spirits, so the angels could see the spirit of Jesus ascend into the clouds.

"This same Jesus .... will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven"

I believe that means that the same spirit of Jesus (the Christ Spirit) will come down from heaven and will appear in the form of a human being who has the Christ Spirit. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, the soul of Jesus came down from heaven. The soul of the man who has the Christ Spirit (and thus is the return of Christ) will come down from heaven in the same way that Jesus came down from heaven. He will be sent by God.

I get why you need this interpretation, but I don't see how it works with the story as written.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, it does: "he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight."

Presumably they thought they saw a body taken up, but the text does not say body, it says he.

No, the two men in white show up partway through the story. It's recounting the perspective of other purported eyewitnesses.

What other things do you think they could be describing besides Jesus riding bodily?

That is probably what they were describing, even though it is ridiculous, as bodies do not rise up into the clouds, unless you believe in Superman.

This is a stretch. And as I mentioned above, the story is recounting from the perspective of other (purported) witnesses, not the angels. This is the story supposedly from the witnesses who saw both Jesus rising into the clouds and the angels.

Okay, I did not know the context since I am not very familiar with the Bible. The verses most likely refer to a body going up.

It seems clear enough to me.

I guess so.

What I see here is motivated reasoning on your part. The straightforward interpretation of the passage doesn't match the Baha'i understanding, so you're doing mental gymnastics.

I will concede to that, but my new argument is that this is just what some men wrote, nothing that ever really happened.
Do you believe that everything in the Bible actually happened as written?

Yes, it does: "he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight."

"He" is not necessarily referring to a body, although that is probably what they were referring to.

I get why you need this interpretation, but I don't see how it works with the story as written.

It is just a different interpretation. I don't need it because nothing is needed to refute the ridiculous belief that the body of Jesus went up in the clouds to heaven and that same body will return from heaven in the clouds and land feet first on the ground. There is practically nothing more absurd in the Bible, except the stories about Jesus rising from the dead and walking around town.

 

[CG Didymus]

I personally believe D, but I believe that the author of the text is trying to express A.

That's how I feel also. 2000 years ago, I don't think the writers were trying to do anything but make Jesus a miracle-working God/man. But who were these writers? Did they witness these events? Were these the traditions that were going around, and they wrote down their gospels as if these traditions were true? Who knows. But, for sure, the main body of believers took the stories very literally.

 

[Brian2]

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

I believe it means that the same Jesus who was taken up into heaven as His disciples watched, would come back in the same way that they saw Him go.
I do not believe that it means that someone else who had never been to earth (Baha'u'llah) would come to earth in a different way than the disciples saw Jesus go to heaven.
I also think it says that the disciples saw Jesus ascend to heaven and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
I don't believe it says that Jesus ascended as a spirit.

 

[1213]

....There is no such thing as a body that is BOTH physical and spiritual. ...

Interesting. I don't mean it is physical body, but that it can be like a physical body, meaning that it can be for example seen like a physical body.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Presumably they thought they saw a body taken up, but the text does not say body, it says he.

Fair enough - these events are all happening after Jesus died. Elsewhere (John 20), Jesus's post-death body is physical enough for Thomas to poke his fingers into Jesus's wounds, but I suppose there's no rule that says things have to be this way every time.

I do think it's fair to say that we can conclude that the body was recognizable as Jesus, though.

That is probably what they were describing, even though it is ridiculous, as bodies do not rise up into the clouds, unless you believe in Superman.

People believe ridiculous thingsYou'reve argued for many things that I consider ridiculous; this doesn't mean I should consider you insincere, does it?

Okay, I did not know the context since I am not very familiar with the Bible. The verses most likely refer to a body going up.

I guess so.

I will concede to that, but my new argument is that this is just what some men wrote, nothing that ever really happened.
Do you believe that everything in the Bible actually happened as written?

Absolutely not. But this doesn't mean that the author isn't trying to express that things did actually happen as written.

There's plenty of material in the Bible that I think waa meant to be taken literally and is just wrong. This passage is an example.

"He" is not necessarily referring to a body, although that is probably what they were referring to.

I think it's reasonable to conclude that "he" refers to something that's recognizable as Jesus, and not different enough in appearance from Jesus's physical body for the author to think it's worth noting.

It is just a different interpretation. I don't need it because nothing is needed to refute the ridiculous belief that the body of Jesus went up in the clouds to heaven and that same body will return from heaven in the clouds and land feet first on the ground. There is practically nothing more absurd in the Bible, except the stories about Jesus rising from the dead and walking around town.

Heh... if you want more absurdities than that, I can give you plenty. Be warned, though: there's a lot of crossover between biblical absurdities and Baha'i belief.

 

[Samael_Khan]

@Brian2 and I have been discussing the following verses and what they mean for over 10 years. The discussion began on another forum and it has continued here. This thread was inspired by the following post on another thread.

In post #690, @Brian2 said:
We start off with the idea that Jesus rose bodily from the dead, as the gospels stories tell us. Then we have the disciples and Jesus (in His resurrection body presumably) ascending in front of His disciples and being hidden by cloud.
It's not complicated really. Just read it slowly and think about it as you do, I'm sure you will be able to see it. Give it a go.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”


I could not figure out how to insert a Poll, so please select one or more from the following options.

a. I believe that Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky in His resurrection body in front of His disciples. I also believe that Jesus will return to earth, descending from heaven on the clouds.

b. I do not believe that Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky in His resurrection body in front of His disciples. I also do not believe that Jesus will return to earth, descending from heaven on the clouds.

c. I believe that those verses have another meaning, different from what @Brian2 believes. They are about the return of Christ, but not about the return of the same man who was called Jesus.

d. I believe that those verses are only part of a made-up fictional story, not about anything that ever happened or ever will ever happen.

Just to clarify.

Is the question about what the verses mean or whether we believe that they are true accounts of history?

Because i would say that the meaning is (a).

But I believe (b) with the addition that the story is a combination of reality and fiction.

 

[Colt]

@Brian2 and I have been discussing the following verses and what they mean for over 10 years. The discussion began on another forum and it has continued here. This thread was inspired by the following post on another thread.

In post #690, @Brian2 said:
We start off with the idea that Jesus rose bodily from the dead, as the gospels stories tell us. Then we have the disciples and Jesus (in His resurrection body presumably) ascending in front of His disciples and being hidden by cloud.
It's not complicated really. Just read it slowly and think about it as you do, I'm sure you will be able to see it. Give it a go.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”


I could not figure out how to insert a Poll, so please select one or more from the following options.

a. I believe that Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky in His resurrection body in front of His disciples. I also believe that Jesus will return to earth, descending from heaven on the clouds.

b. I do not believe that Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky in His resurrection body in front of His disciples. I also do not believe that Jesus will return to earth, descending from heaven on the clouds.

c. I believe that those verses have another meaning, different from what @Brian2 believes. They are about the return of Christ, but not about the return of the same man who was called Jesus.

d. I believe that those verses are only part of a made-up fictional story, not about anything that ever happened or ever will ever happen.

E. According to the Urantia Revelation, Jesus vanished from their sight just as he did on the other appearances like Luke 24:30-32 after he returned from the death of his mortal body in a new form. The UB also explains that the dead mortal body of Jesus was dematerialized, taken out of the tomb and returned to the dust! Each time Jesus appeared in the new form he would suddenly appear and suddenly vanish! No floating off into clouds! Stories get embellished when retold sometimes. IMOP