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What is the default position in the mind-body problem?

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Use any of these 3 definitions of "will":

noun

1. the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions:

the freedom of the will.

2. power of choosing one's own actions:

to have a strong or a weak will.

3. the act or process of using or asserting one's choice; volition:

My hands are obedient to my will.

the definition of will

By that definition, free will is consistent with determinism. Even under a deterministic system, we have consciousness and deliberate action. The choices we make are primarily determined by events inside of our heads: they are *our* choices. Furthermore, even slight differences in the physical aspects inside our brain would lead to a different choice. It is a chaotic dynamical system, even if it is deterministic.

Now, *precisely* what do you mean by the term 'free will'?

You have suggested the determinism is dead and I agree. But I am not at all convinced that being subject to the randomness of quantum mechanics is any better than being subject to the determinism of classical physics.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What is “the rule of the universe” that has determined what color socks I will put on my feet tomorrow?

I am unaware that there is any such rule of the universe. I believe that I am free to choose my multicolored argyle socks rather than my usual black socks, without violating any rules of the universe.

Well, the difficulty here is that the brain is an exceedingly complex system and it isn't so easy to analyze it from fundamental principles. Given its structure, even minor changes would lead to very different choices later on (this is what they call chaotic dynamics).

That means that even if your choices are determined by the laws of physics, it would be horribly difficult to actually figure out which decision you will make about your socks tomorrow. To do so would involve analyzing not just all of your neurons in detail, but also whatever sensory input you would get between now and when you put on your socks.

At that point, I don't see how it matters whether you have 'true' freedom of will or just the 'approximation' given by the complexity of your brain. Either way, the events that determine your choices happen inside your head: the choice is *yours* because you are the process inside your head.

Could you choose differently? Sure! If the conditions were even slightly different, you could have done so (even if that choice was determined by the slightly different conditions).
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't have a clue as to what any of that is supposed to mean.

The scientific method (whatever you mean by that term) has never demonstrated that "the physicalist position" (your term) is true. Correct?

This goes deeper. My claim is that the difference between a physicalist position and a non-physicalist position has no observational component. So, the differences are literally meaningless.


To be unable to choose to assert and believe proposition that are true rather than propositions that are false is self-stultifying; it means that none of your claims in your posts on this website have any truth value--your claims would be just about words that you couldn't avoid typing and posting here for some inexplicable reason.

Why would I be unable to do that?
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
There is no default metaphysical image. Each position is developed by exposure to language and culture, and honed with practice.
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Many claim that physicalism is the default assumption, where some believe it is idealism. I personally believe it to be solipsism, as with absolute certainty we can only be aware we exist in some manner, and nothing further. Not to say I'm a solipsist, I think we can reject the problem even if just on pragmatism, but rejection is exactly what you try to do to a default position. I think physicalism, dualism, emergence, idealism, etc all require a rejection of this default position. At that point, we accept the position which makes the least assumptions.

Do you agree with this default? What is yours? In what way can the position held, if not solipsism, be supported with the least assumptions?
I disagree, because solipsism requires a rejection of the external and objective. One would first have to have put the external and objective into place before it is even possble to realize solipsism.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's all determinism.
How does one argue in the 21st century that the thesis of determinism is true?

Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.

Causal Determinism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

As already noted in #13, thesis of determinism can only be true if the postulate of realism used in the tests of Bell and Leggett-Garg inequalities is true. Realism is the assumption that the properties of quanta exist in a definite state in the absence of (prior to) a measurement. The findings of these experiments are consistent in demonstrating that those inequalities are violated, thus refuting the postulate of realism:

Bell's inequality is established based on local realism. The violation of Bell's inequality by quantum mechanics implies either locality or realism or both are untenable. Leggett's inequality is derived based on nonlocal realism. The violation of Leggett's inequality implies that quantum mechanics is neither local realistic nor nonlocal realistic. The incompatibility of nonlocal realism and quantum mechanics has been currently confirmed by photon experiments.​

Testing Leggett's Inequality Using Aharonov-Casher Effect : Scientific Reports

Here are more such findings:

Strong Loophole-Free Test of Local Realism

Quantum mechanics at its heart is a statistical theory. It cannot with certainty predict the outcome of all single events, but instead it predicts probabilities of outcomes. This probabilistic nature of quantum theory is at odds with the determinism inherent in Newtonian physics and relativity, where outcomes can be exactly predicted given sufficient knowledge of a system. Einstein and others felt that quantum mechanics was incomplete. Perhaps quantum systems are controlled by variables, possibly hidden from us [2], that determine the outcomes of measurements. If we had direct access to these hidden variables then the properties of quantum systems would not need to be treated probabilistically. De Broglie’s 1927 pilot-wave theory was a first attempt at formulating a hidden variable theory of quantum physics [3]; it was completed in 1952 by David Bohm [4, 5]. While the pilot-wave theory can reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics, it has the curious feature that hidden variables in one location can instantly change values because of events happening in distant locations. This seemingly violates the locality principle from relativity, which says that objects cannot signal one another faster than the speed of light. In 1935 the nonlocal feature of quantum systems was popularized by Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen [6], and is something Einstein later referred to as “spooky actions at a distance”[7]. But in 1964 John Bell showed that it is impossible to construct a hidden variable theory that obeys locality and simultaneously reproduces all of the predictions of quantum mechanics [8]. Bell’s theorem fundamentally changed our understanding of quantum theory and today stands as a cornerstone of modern quantum information science.

Bell’s theorem does not prove the validity of quantum mechanics, but it does allows us to test the hypothesis that nature is governed by local realism. The principle of realism says that any system has pre-existing values for all possible measurements of the system. In local realistic theories, these pre-existing values depend only on events in the past lightcone of the system. Local hidden variable theories obey this principle of local realism. Local realism places constraints on the behavior of systems of multiple particles--constraints that do not apply to entangled quantum particles. This leads to different predictions that can be tested in an experiment known as a Bell test. In a typical two-party Bell test, a source generates particles and sends them to two distant parties, Alice and Bob. Alice and Bob independently and randomly choose properties of their individual particles to measure. Later, they compare the results of their measurements. Local realism constrains the joint probability distribution of their choices and measurements. The basis of a Bell test is an inequality that is obeyed by local realistic probability distributions but can be violated by the probability distributions of certain entangled quantum particles [8]. A few years after Bell derived his inequality, new forms were introduced by Clauser, Horne, Shimony and Holt [9], and Clauser and Horne [10] that are simpler to experimentally test.

In a series of landmark experiments, Freedman and Clauser [11] and Aspect, Grangier, Dalibard, and Roger [12–14] demonstrated experimental violations of Bell inequalities using pairs of polarization-entangled photons generated by an atomic cascade.​

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...trong-Loophole-Free-Test-of-Local-Realism.pdf

Cosmic Bell Test: Measurement Settings from Milky Way Stars

Bell’s theorem states that some predictions of quantum mechanics cannot be reproduced by a local-realist theory. That conflict is expressed by Bell’s inequality, which is usually derived under the assumption that there are no statistical correlations between the choices of measurement settings and anything else that can causally affect the measurement outcomes. In previous experiments, this “freedom of choice” was addressed by ensuring that selection of measurement settings via conventional “quantum random number generators” was spacelike separated from the entangled particle creation. This, however, left open the possibility that an unknown cause affected both the setting choices and measurement outcomes as recently as mere microseconds before each experimental trial. Here we report on a new experimental test of Bell’s inequality that, for the first time, uses distant astronomical sources as “cosmic setting generators.” In our tests with polarization-entangled photons, measurement settings were chosen using real-time observations of Milky Way stars while simultaneously ensuring locality. Assuming fair sampling for all detected photons, and that each stellar photon’s color was set at emission, we observe statistically significant ≳7.31σ and ≳11.93σ violations of Bell’s inequality with estimated p values of ≲1.8×10^−13 and ≲4.0×10^−33, respectively, thereby pushing back by ∼600  years the most recent time by which any local-realist influences could have engineered the observed Bell violation.​

Phys. Rev. Lett. 118, 060401 (2017) - Cosmic Bell Test: Measurement Settings from Milky Way Stars

Violation of the Leggett-Garg Inequality in Neutrino Oscillations

The original goal of LGI [Leggett-Garg Inequality] tests was to demonstrate macroscopic coherence -- that is, that quantum mechanics applies on macroscopic scales up to the level at which many-particle systems exhibit decoherence [3, 8–12]. For this reason, a major focus of recent LGI research has been scaling up to tests with macroscopic systems. Notably, Zhou et al. [9] recently reported finding LGI violation caused by quantum coherence in macroscopic crystals.

LGI tests have another purpose: to test “realism,” the notion that physical systems possess complete sets of definite values for various parameters prior to, and independent of, measurement. “Realism” is often encoded in hidden-variable theories, which allow for systems that are treated as identical according to quantum mechanics to be fundamentally distinguishable through a hidden set of parameters that they possess, such that any measurement on a system reveals a pre-existing value [13]. LGI violations imply that such hidden-variable (or “realistic”) alternatives to quantum mechanics cannot adequately describe a system’s time evolution. Experiments using few-particle systems can test “realism” even if they do not directly address macrorealism [13–18].​

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...cillations/links/56c3ef1008ae60234250be1d.pdf

Violation of the Leggett-Garg Inequality in Neutrino Oscillations

The Leggett-Garg inequality, an analogue of Bell’s inequality involving correlations of measurements on a system at different times, stands as one of the hallmark tests of quantum mechanics against classical predictions. The phenomenon of neutrino oscillations should adhere to quantum-mechanical predictions and provide an observable violation of the Leggett-Garg inequality. We demonstrate how oscillation phenomena can be used to test for violations of the classical bound by performing measurements on an ensemble of neutrinos at distinct energies, as opposed to a single neutrino at distinct times. A study of the MINOS experiment’s data shows a greater than 6σ violation over a distance of 735 km, representing the longest distance over which either the Leggett-Garg inequality or Bell’s inequality has been tested.​

Phys. Rev. Lett. 117, 050402 (2016) - Violation of the Leggett-Garg Inequality in Neutrino Oscillations
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Use any of these 3 definitions of "will":

noun

1. the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions:

the freedom of the will.

2. power of choosing one's own actions:

to have a strong or a weak will.

3. the act or process of using or asserting one's choice; volition:

My hands are obedient to my will.

the definition of will

Add "free" to either and we are talking a rather ambitious fantasy world concept.
So you have no problem with the concept of "will" as given in those definitions?

Those definitions are all I think of as "free will".

So, let's use definition #2, and, again, I ask: Did you use your ["power of choosing your own actions"] to determine that there are true statements in the article you linked to?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
By that definition, free will is consistent with determinism.
Explain how "the power of choosing one's own actions" is consistent with determinism.

That would be called compatibilism. I recently started a thread for people to argue for it, but no one did: Solve the Riddle of Compatibilism, Win Big Prize

In any case, why does one need to try to square free will (or "will" according to definitions above) with determinism, since one cannot argue for determinism on the basis of the empirical scientific evidence?

The choices we make are primarily determined by events inside of our heads
Determined by what events?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What is “the rule of the universe” that has determined what color socks I will put on my feet tomorrow?

I am unaware that there is any such rule of the universe. I believe that I am free to choose my multicolored argyle socks rather than my usual black socks, without violating any rules of the universe.
Well, the difficulty here is that the brain is an exceedingly complex system and it isn't so easy to analyze it from fundamental principles. Given its structure, even minor changes would lead to very different choices later on (this is what they call chaotic dynamics).

That means that even if your choices are determined by the laws of physics, it would be horribly difficult to actually figure out which decision you will make about your socks tomorrow. To do so would involve analyzing not just all of your neurons in detail, but also whatever sensory input you would get between now and when you put on your socks.

At that point, I don't see how it matters whether you have 'true' freedom of will or just the 'approximation' given by the complexity of your brain. Either way, the events that determine your choices happen inside your head: the choice is *yours* because you are the process inside your head.

Could you choose differently? Sure! If the conditions were even slightly different, you could have done so (even if that choice was determined by the slightly different conditions).
I believe that reason that you can't name the "rule of the universe" that is supposedly violated by my ability to freely choose black socks rather than argyle sock to wear tomorrow is because there isn't any such rule or law. It is just a blatant anti-scientific myth that there is only one possible future that is going to happen.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
My claim is that the difference between a physicalist position and a non-physicalist position has no observational component.
So you agree that there is no evidence acquired by the scientific method that leads to the conclusion that physicalism is true.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Explain how "the power of choosing one's own actions" is consistent with determinism.
I attempted to do exactly that.

When you say 'you' are 'choosing' your own actions, what does that mean? It means that the main determining facts for the 'choice' happen inside your skull. And that can be the case even in the context of determinism. The *choice* isn't made by outside influences (that is, outside of yourbrain), but rather are primarily determined by the goings on of your neurons, etc.

That would be called compatibilism. I recently started a thread for people to argue for it, but no one did: Solve the Riddle of Compatibilism, Win Big Prize
https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/solve-the-riddle-of-compatibilism-win-big-prize.197767/
I may not have been here then.

In any case, why does one need to try to square free will (or "will" according to definitions above) with determinism, since one cannot argue for determinism on the basis of the empirical scientific evidence?
Most macroscopic events (say, above the level of large molecules) are, in fact, determined. The 'sway' provided for by quantum mechanics is quite small once you get away from the atomic level.

Determined by what events?

The pattern of neuron fire in your brain. In other words, by you.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes, actually, it does. But the effects are very, very small at the macro-scale. And at the micro scale it is anything *but* purely theoretical.
I agree when you say "Yes, actually it does." But I dispute that "the effects are very, very small." Schrodinger's cat was macroscopic.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe that reason that you can't name the "rule of the universe" that is supposedly violated by my ability to freely choose black socks rather than argyle sock to wear tomorrow is because there isn't any such rule or law. It is just a blatant anti-scientific myth that there is only one possible future that is going to happen.

On the contrary, it is for a very similar reason to why it is impossible to predict weather 3 months in advance. For weather, we know the relevant equations. But even small differences in our measurements can lead to large differences in the predictions on longer time scales.

For the events in the brain, there are trillions of neurons, each of which would have to be modeled separately along with the specific sensory input you had up to the point of decision. Otherwise, the small differences could produce a different end result.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
What's with everyone's obsession with "default" positions?

By definition, there are no "default" positions. A position is a point of view that you adopt and hold. A whole host of variables go into what positions any person will adopt and continue to hold. There are no defaults.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree when you say "Yes, actually it does." But I dispute that "the effects are very, very small." Schrodinger's cat was macroscopic.

And Schrodinger's cat would collapse the wave function almost immediately because of decoherence effects.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
So you agree that there is no evidence acquired by the scientific method that leads to the conclusion that physicalism is true.

I'm saying there can be no evidence either way so the question is literally meaningless.
 
Yes, actually, it does. But the effects are very, very small at the macro-scale. And at the micro scale it is anything *but* purely theoretical.
Show me where quantum mechanics invalidates causality. Something peer reviewed.

So you are saying there are no competing theories to, or alternate interpretations of, QM, as one would expect if the math were not theoretical?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I attempted to do exactly that.

When you say 'you' are 'choosing' your own actions, what does that mean? It means that the main determining facts for the 'choice' happen inside your skull. And that can be the case even in the context of determinism. The *choice* isn't made by outside influences (that is, outside of yourbrain), but rather are primarily determined by the goings on of your neurons, etc.

I may not have been here then.


Most macroscopic events (say, above the level of large molecules) are, in fact, determined. The 'sway' provided for by quantum mechanics is quite small once you get away from the atomic level.



The pattern of neuron fire in your brain. In other words, by you.
I don't consciously control the firing of any neuron. I don't consciously control "the pattern of neuron fire in [my] brain."

I don't believe you have solved "the mind-body problem" by saying that we choose what neurons or pattern of neurons "fire".
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't consciously control the firing of any neuron. I don't consciously control "the pattern of neuron fire in [my] brain."

I don't believe you have solved "the mind-body problem" by saying that we choose what neurons or pattern of neurons "fire".

Your consciousness *is* the pattern of firing of those neurons. The choice *is* how those firings related to your subsequent actions.
 
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