What is the Case for Re-incarnation

[arthra]

The problem I see with so called subconscious memories is that they are usually not that reliable...also hynotists can through suggestion plant all sorts of things in peoples minds without hardly trying to... If a person say is hypnotized and predisposed to the concept that they've lived before (past lives regressions) ...you'll probably get some sort of answers but they also are likely to have been implanted there...

The same is true with tpeople who believe they've been molested as young children...It's extremely difficult to use the material as evidence...because of the predisposition of the people involved.

Contacts with aliens or travels to other worlds on saucers could also be part i think of people being led by suggestion.

- Art

 

[arthra]

Mystic Sangha..

I don't think Bruce was being insulting, he was simply recounting some sources for Muffled. Of course you have every right to discount his source....

- Art

 

[wizanda]

Does anyone ever reincarnate into the past, and remember lives lived in the future (compared to the one they are in now)?
If not, why?

We call these prophets.....:angel2:

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Mystic Sangha..

I don't think Bruce was being insulting, he was simply recounting some sources for Muffled. Of course you have every right to discount his source....

- Art

While it may seem that I overreacted, allow me to point out that the source that Bruce used is insulting because it did not portray an accurate portrayal at all from dharmic religious standpoints.

It's fine to criticize Buddhism and other Dharmic paths, but whoever is doing it ought to do the homework first. "Reincarnation" as portrayed in the source had fluffy-bunnyisms out the wazoo there. :areyoucra




Peace,
Mystic

 

[arthra]

Mystic Sangha,

Well there are many concepts of reincarnation and I don't think we were addressing just one of them...

- Art

 

[cardero]

Arthra writes: The problem I see with so called subconscious memories is that they are usually not that reliable...

I do not think that you can use these reports in a court of law but psychiatrists believe these testimonies to be very significant and useful.

Arthra writes:also hynotists can through suggestion plant all sorts of things in peoples minds without hardly trying to...

A professional hypnotist only extracts information and doesn’t suggest or assume. I have read many books in which full regressions were cited. In many cases the hypnotist listens and let’s the patient lead or speak, sometimes a hypnotist will repeat a portion of a patient's report to see if they respond accurately a second time or if there is anything to add but it rarely is the hypnotist’s job to offer suggestions to a patient. There have been times when a hypnotist has asked a question incorrectly to understand or confirm data but the patient has always corrected the hypnotist which implies that misleading may not be possible in gathering past memories with some patients.

Arthra writes:Contacts with aliens or travels to other worlds on saucers could also be part i think of people being led by suggestion.

There are many details and information that hypnotists of alien abductions will not share with other researchers, patients or make known to the public. They will withhold this data so that they can confirm to see if other abductees have encountered these details as well before making this knowledge common. There are many different aspects to this phenomenon and with over 30 years of experience, many professional hypnotists have a much better understanding and a more considerate manner in which to deal with abductees who are just willing to try to come to terms with what they have experienced.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Mystic Sangha,

Well there are many concepts of reincarnation and I don't think we were addressing just one of them...

- Art

Of course not. There were several points of view of reincarnation that had been offered, yet none of them fully supported the Dharmic POV because they all centered around one or more forms of egoistic grasping. And besides, the source claimed that it's summary of beliefs in reincarnation was "sufficient" and assumed it was representative of all who believed in such. It is insulting because it is not representative of those of the Dharmic paths, yet it claims to be so.

Does that make more sense? It's jumping to conclusions trying to speak for someone like me. I don't think that's cool.




Peace,
Mystic

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

<Case_for_reincarnation> 0 </Case_for_reincarnation>

 

[arthra]

Mystic Sangha..

No criticism of "Dharmic Faiths" was intended. The question was what sources were available on the general subject of reincarnation..."The object of what we are about to say is to explain the reality - not to deride the beliefs of other people; it is only to explain the facts; that is all. We do not oppose anyone's ideas, nor do we approve of criticism."


- Art

 

[Muffled]

Two words. The experience. Whether one believes that this benefit of experience comes in the form of knowledge or the benefit comes from just BEing, it is a reason to justify any incarnation.

An example of Experiencing for BEing:
The world’s greatest rollercoaster is opening up somewhere. You have saved your money to go to his park to ride this rollercoaster and when you get there you experience the moment of what is is to ride that rollercoaster. The amusement park will not allow you to bring this rollercoaster home nor is it practical to build a house next to this rollercoaster but you have put the effort forward to accomplishing your desire. Can you come back and ride the rollercoaster? Anytime that you want.

An example of Experiencing for Knowledge
Brian L. Weiss is a prominent psychiatrist and the author of Many Lives, Many Masters. Upon helping his patients overcome certain fears, anxieties and phobias he had stumbled upon the past life regression in a way to help people identify with their fears and overcome them. One example included a woman named Catherine, who visitied him for anxiety attacks. When the author could not find a probable starting part for her fears he tried hypnotic regression and realized that her concerns did not stem from this lifetime but from past lifetimes. After a few more sessions and understanding about where these anxiety attacks originated, Catherine no longer has these panic attacks and does not required the need for anymore therapy sessions. Dr. Weiss believes that we can learn a lot from our past experiences to explain why we react to certain situations today or why we follow certain interests so compassionately. He also believes that we can discover this knowledge for ourselves. He has written many books on the subject and presents a very interesting argument to support that many people have lived many lives.

FAQ

Does everybody reincarnate many times?
No, reincarnation is not a requirement to existing and in some ways there are tale-telling signs of how many times someone has reincarnated into a particular existence. Some people have never incarnated into a physical existence or have only incarnated once.

Why do we forget when we reincarnate?
The previous knowledge of our past lives may not be relevant to this one. One can compare it to the reason why they do not pass out movies scripts to read in theaters before the start the film. Very rarely are the cases where someone remembers glimpses or large parts of a past experience but they do exist and have been documented.

Is there are karma system implied?
There is no distinction of living a good, bad, long or short life that can be applied to your next decision to reincarnate. Though a planned purpose can be arranged with other souls there is no Godly measure of justice or penalty applied to your next incarnation.

So if I live a bad or poor life I won’t come back as a bee or some kind of sea plankton?
You come back as a bee or sea plankton because you desire the experience. There are many factors why someone may incarnate into a physical existence. One consideration is the experience and another may be how long an entity wants to spend in a physical existence.

So God does not will me to an incarnation?
If God had chosen and planned your existence and purpose in a physical existence it would not be your purpose, your experience or your life, it would be a puppet's life and one cannot incarnate into an inanimate existence. An example of this could be a person who visits a travel agency to make plans to go on a vaction to Hawaii but the travel agent insists that the customer wants to go to Ireland. Why would a travel agent want to send you on a vacation where you wouldn't want to go?

Are there other physical realities to incarnate into?
Yes, BEing human is not the only possibility. There are many other species that one can reincarnate into and each experience is valid. There are even other locations and entities besides this planet Earth.

But Patrick you are a puppet! No one controls their own life. You can make choices from the options available to you. My daughter complains that she should have been born into a wealthy family. Evidently the life she was given is not the life she would have chosen. In a system of rewards and punishments God can allow a person to make choices for their next life as a reward for good behavior.

God is not a travel agent and He doesn't exist to serve us but we exist to please Him.

 

[Muffled]

Two words. The experience. Whether one believes that this benefit of experience comes in the form of knowledge or the benefit comes from just BEing, it is a reason to justify any incarnation.

An example of Experiencing for BEing:
The world’s greatest rollercoaster is opening up somewhere. You have saved your money to go to his park to ride this rollercoaster and when you get there you experience the moment of what is is to ride that rollercoaster. The amusement park will not allow you to bring this rollercoaster home nor is it practical to build a house next to this rollercoaster but you have put the effort forward to accomplishing your desire. Can you come back and ride the rollercoaster? Anytime that you want.

An example of Experiencing for Knowledge
Brian L. Weiss is a prominent psychiatrist and the author of Many Lives, Many Masters. Upon helping his patients overcome certain fears, anxieties and phobias he had stumbled upon the past life regression in a way to help people identify with their fears and overcome them. One example included a woman named Catherine, who visitied him for anxiety attacks. When the author could not find a probable starting part for her fears he tried hypnotic regression and realized that her concerns did not stem from this lifetime but from past lifetimes. After a few more sessions and understanding about where these anxiety attacks originated, Catherine no longer has these panic attacks and does not required the need for anymore therapy sessions. Dr. Weiss believes that we can learn a lot from our past experiences to explain why we react to certain situations today or why we follow certain interests so compassionately. He also believes that we can discover this knowledge for ourselves. He has written many books on the subject and presents a very interesting argument to support that many people have lived many lives.

FAQ

Does everybody reincarnate many times?
No, reincarnation is not a requirement to existing and in some ways there are tale-telling signs of how many times someone has reincarnated into a particular existence. Some people have never incarnated into a physical existence or have only incarnated once.

Why do we forget when we reincarnate?
The previous knowledge of our past lives may not be relevant to this one. One can compare it to the reason why they do not pass out movies scripts to read in theaters before the start the film. Very rarely are the cases where someone remembers glimpses or large parts of a past experience but they do exist and have been documented.

Is there are karma system implied?
There is no distinction of living a good, bad, long or short life that can be applied to your next decision to reincarnate. Though a planned purpose can be arranged with other souls there is no Godly measure of justice or penalty applied to your next incarnation.

So if I live a bad or poor life I won’t come back as a bee or some kind of sea plankton?
You come back as a bee or sea plankton because you desire the experience. There are many factors why someone may incarnate into a physical existence. One consideration is the experience and another may be how long an entity wants to spend in a physical existence.

So God does not will me to an incarnation?
If God had chosen and planned your existence and purpose in a physical existence it would not be your purpose, your experience or your life, it would be a puppet's life and one cannot incarnate into an inanimate existence. An example of this could be a person who visits a travel agency to make plans to go on a vaction to Hawaii but the travel agent insists that the customer wants to go to Ireland. Why would a travel agent want to send you on a vacation where you wouldn't want to go?

Are there other physical realities to incarnate into?
Yes, BEing human is not the only possibility. There are many other species that one can reincarnate into and each experience is valid. There are even other locations and entities besides this planet Earth.

But patrick, you are a puppet! No one controls their own life. You can make choices from the options available to you. In a system of rewards and punishments, God can give a person a choice for their next life as an award for good behavior.

God is not a travel agent. He doesn't exist to serve humans but humans exist to please Him.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

I agree with what Art said above about the Baha'i stance on reincarnation.

So sorry you didn't like it, Mystic, but our viewpoint stands!

And as Art pointed out, it wasn't meant as insult.

You're quite free to choose your own path with our blessings!

But it would be nice if you afforded us the same privelege without hurling insults at us in the process.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Muffled]

Greetings redux!



We deliver!

From the Baha'i scriptures:

“CHAPTER 81​

“Question. - What is the truth of the question of reincarnation, which is believed by some people?

“Answer. - The object of what we are about to say is to explain the reality - not to deride the beliefs of other people; it is only to explain the facts; that is all. We do not oppose anyone's ideas, nor do we approve of criticism.

“Know, then, that those who believe in reincarnation are of two classes: one class does not believe in the spiritual punishments and rewards of the other world, and they suppose that man by reincarnation and return to this world gains rewards and recompenses; they consider heaven and hell to be restricted to this world and do not speak of the existence of the other world. Among these there are two further divisions. One division thinks that man sometimes returns to this world in the form of an animal in order to undergo severe punishment and that, after enduring this painful torment, he will be released from the animal world and will come again into the human world; this is called transmigration. The other division thinks that from the human world one again returns to the human world, and that by this return rewards and punishments for a former life are obtained; this is called reincarnation. Neither of these classes speak of any other world besides this one.

“The second sort of believers in reincarnation affirm the existence of the other world, and they consider reincarnation the means of becoming perfect - that is, they think that man, by going from and coming again to this world, will gradually acquire perfections, until he reaches the inmost perfection. In other words, that men are composed of matter and force: matter in the beginning - that is to say, in the first cycle - is imperfect, but on coming repeatedly to this world it progresses and acquires refinement and delicacy, until it becomes like a polished mirror; and force, which is no other than spirit, is realized in it with all the perfections.

“This is the presentation of the subject by those who believe in reincarnation and transmigration. We have condensed it; if we entered into the details, it would take much time. This summary is sufficient. No logical arguments and proofs of this question are brought forward; they are only suppositions and inferences from conjectures, and not conclusive arguments. Proofs must be asked for from the believers in reincarnation, and not conjectures, suppositions and imaginations.

“But you have asked for arguments of the impossibility of reincarnation. This is what we must now explain. The first argument for its impossibility is that the outward is the expression of the inward; the earth is the mirror of the Kingdom; the material world corresponds to the spiritual world. Now observe that in the sensible world appearances are not repeated, for no being in any respect is identical with, nor the same as, another being. The sign of singleness is visible and apparent in all things. If all the granaries of the world were full of grain, you would not find two grains absolutely alike, the same and identical without any distinction. It is certain that there will be differences and distinctions between them. As the proof of uniqueness exists in all things, and the Oneness and Unity of God is apparent in the reality of all things, the repetition of the same appearance is absolutely impossible. Therefore, reincarnation, which is the repeated appearance of the same spirit with its former essence and condition in this same world of appearance, is impossible and unrealizable. As the repetition of the same appearance is impossible and interdicted for each of the material beings, so for spiritual beings also, a return to the same condition, whether in the arc of descent or in the arc of ascent, is interdicted and impossible, for the material corresponds to the spiritual.

“Nevertheless, the return of material beings with regard to species is evident; so the trees which during former years brought forth leaves, blossoms and fruits in the coming years will bring forth exactly the same leaves, blossoms and fruits. This is called the repetition of species. If anyone makes an objection saying that the leaf, the blossom and the fruit have been decomposed, and have descended from the vegetable world to the mineral world, and again have come back from the mineral world to the
vegetable world, and, therefore, there has been a repetition - the answer is that the blossom, the leaf and the fruit of last year were decomposed, and these combined elements were disintegrated and were dispersed in space, and that the particles of the leaf and fruit of last year, after decomposition, have not again become combined, and have not returned. On the contrary, by the composition of new elements, the species has returned. It is the same with the human body, which after decomposition becomes disintegrated, and the elements which composed it are dispersed. If, in like manner, this body should again return from the mineral or vegetable world, it would not have exactly the same composition of elements as the former man. Those elements have been decomposed and dispersed; they are dissipated in this vast space. Afterward, other particles of elements have been combined, and a second body has been formed; it may be that one of the particles of the former individual has entered into the composition of the succeeding individual, but these particles have not been conserved and kept, exactly and completely, without addition or diminution, so that they may be combined again, and from that composition and mingling another individual may come into existence. So it cannot be proved that this body with all its particles has returned; that the former man has become the latter; and that, consequently, there has been repetition; that the spirit also, like the body, has returned; and that after death its essence has come back to this world.

“If we say that this reincarnation is for acquiring perfections so that matter may become refined and delicate, and that the light of the spirit may be manifest in it with the greatest perfection, this also is mere imagination. For, even supposing we believe in this argument, still change of nature is impossible through renewal and return. The essence of imperfection, by returning, does not become the reality of perfection; complete darkness, by returning, does not become the source of light; the essence of weakness is not transformed into power and might by returning, and an earthly nature does not become a heavenly reality. The tree of Zaqqum,(1) no matter how frequently it may come back, will not bring forth sweet fruit, and the good tree, no matter how often it may return, will not bear a bitter fruit. Therefore, it is evident that returning and coming back to the material world does not become the cause of perfection. This theory has no proofs nor evidences; it is simply an idea. No, in reality the cause of acquiring perfections is the bounty of God.

“The Theosophists believe that man on the arc of ascent(2) will return many times until he reaches the Supreme Center; in that condition matter becomes a clear mirror, the light of the spirit will shine upon it with its full power, and essential perfection will be acquired. Now, this is an established and deep theological proposition, that the material worlds are terminated at the end of the arc of descent, and that the condition of man is at the end of the arc of descent, and at the beginning of the arc of ascent, which is opposite to the Supreme Center. Also, from the beginning to the end of the arc of ascent, there are numerous spiritual degrees. The arc of descent is called beginning,(3) and that of ascent is called progress.(4) The arc of descent ends in materialities, and the arc of ascent ends in spiritualities. The point of the compass in describing a circle makes no retrograde motion, for this would be contrary to the natural movement and the divine order; otherwise, the symmetry of the circle would be spoiled.

[CONTINUES]

This conclusion is based on a false premise ie. that the outward is an expression of the inward. For instance the bloodied face of Jesus does not reflect His divinty but the evil spirit of wicked men who beat him in the face.

This argument does not hold water because there is no evidence that the spirit is dispersible. If the spirit is dispersible it can't hold on to its identity and there is no life after death but Jesus promises life after death. Also Lazarus returns to his body with the same identity without having been dispersed.

This abrogates free will. All of Christianity is based on the ability of a person to repent their sins.