What is odd about the Book of Mormon?

[Rogue Cardinal]

Scripture, including the Bible, the Book of Mormon as well as modern revelation by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Right so you do what I say other Christians do. A little bit of this and a little bit of that. Mix it all up and reinterpret the hell out of it and you get a whole new religion. Yeah.

The only way you can come to the conclusion that God was a or is a man is through the BOM. That's it.

the belief in a "Trinity" is not biblical founded, nor logical in any sense of the term.

The word is not in the Bible....but one could easily make a fine argument that it is biblical.

My point for bringing up the trinity is that in general if you don't believe in it then you cannot be a Christian. Mormons do not...thus you ain't a Christian, according to christians.

This is ridiculously false. We only worship God our Heavenly Father, through his son Jesus Christ. We receive inspiration and witness that these things are true by way of the Holy Ghost.

contrare mon freir. You have 3 separate gods. Christianity found a clever to wrap them up into one thus being monotheistic.

Let me pose a question to you. As a christian, did you believe everyone was going to be resurrected as it states in the New Testament?
I Thessalonians Chapter 4 (after this I will be inserting linkes to the scriptures within my response to prevent post truncation)

I would say that over time my understanding of what happens in the end has changed dramatically over time. There was a time when bad people went to hell and good people went to heaven.

Later I discovered that Hell is a mythological place invented by pagans and adopted by Christians. The evolution of "hell" over time in Christianity is a story of really interesting note and study. I highly recommend you put some effort into research on this subject.

In a nut shell though I feel it fair to explain what my belief would be if I were still a Christian. People die. Those that died believing in Christ go to go to Heaven first. Everyone that died BEFORE Christ is still in Sheol or Gehenna. At the 2nd coming (which I don't believe in because I don't believe Christ to be the Messiah but that's another thread all together) those people that were in Sheol or Gehenna will get the opportunity to accept Christ (thus nullifying the silly notion of baptism after death). Most people upon seeing Christ will have no choice but to accept. Those that will not will be annihilated. There is no eternal punishment. There is only oblivion in the end for the nonbelievers. Also Heaven is NOT the last place for the believers. The Earth will be made right again and there will be Heaven on Earth so to speak.

Then in Revelation 20 It explains that only Satan and his followers will be cast into the "lake of fire and brimstone": and that all of the unrepentant sinners will be resurrected and judged after the millennium. According to The Bible, "Hell" (spirit prison) and death are temporary states. Explained also in Paul's epistle to the Corinthians that the resurrection of the dead will have different degrees of glory to it.

You and I are probably pretty close on this subject....if I were a believer anyway.

Yes, one has to accept it for themselves. If you are dead you indeed can accept baptism as baptisms for the dead was practiced during Paul's day, as we established before spirit prison or "hell" is temporary. Would not a loving God allow them to repent whp had died without knowledge of the plan of salvation?

How in the world you can get THAt out of the quote to folow is beyond me.

More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.

So what is REALLY being talked about here? Very simple. It's simply talking about the resurrection of CHrist. It's saying that Christ DID come back from the dead and that if he hadn't then everythign Christ taught would have been bunk. All dead folks get "raised" from teh dead in one form or another. THere is NOTHING about baptism in this passage at all. IT means that if you died believing in Christ and Christ had not resurrected then you would be lost.

Not at all. The doctrine that there are Gods many, is well established in the Bible. However, we are only subject to Our Father.

Really?

so much for this little nugget huh?

Do not tremble, do not be afraid Did I notproclaim this an foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. IS there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I KNOW NOT ONE.

The problem with your little quote is that it comes from the BOM...which merely distorted what the bible ACTUALLY says.

Little side by side is in order here.

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your aeyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, bknowing good and cevil.

5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Now for the REST of the story.....and I find this HILARIOUS. The person speaking in that quote....is SATAN. Not God. SATAN. OR at least the Serpent. So your well established doctrine is based on the words of SATAN.

I can't think of a better way to call your religion false than the fact that YOU have proven that your doctrines (at least this one) are based on the words of SATAN and NOT God. That is absolutely hilarious.

Not at all, please see my previous link to scripture from Genesis

REALLY?? Are you kidding me? You just mangled the hell out of scripture again. You just admitted in your Genesis quote to believing the words of Satan. How much lower can you REALLY fall?

You can assume your interpretation of scripture is correct, however we know it to be otherwise based on the pattern the bible has followed until the scripture.

Yeah....go tell that to SATAN.

They just don't like the fact that we are not just Christians but rather Christians++

Yet you base doctrines on the words of SATAN.....this is why Christians think of you as NOT Christian....or Christian--.

But do you ask for guidance from Heavenly Father to understand the scriptures via the Holy Ghost? or do you read it with the intent of disproving it by way of your own understanding?

I don't have to. I can read very well. You might say that the Lord has revealed to me in ALL of his profoundly poorly written texts that his religions are all false. So you see....I'm like you in believing that the other guys are false....but I just happen to lump your religion with the rest of them. Me being an equal opportunist and all.

 

[Katzpur]

Based on what?

Based on modern revelation.

based on what?

I don't understand your question. I already explained the basis for our belief that God has a corporeal body (i.e. modern revelation). All of the other things we believe about Him are pretty much consistent with what all Christians believe and are found in the Bible.

That's debatable....you don't believe in the Trinity...and that will get you booted out of the "Christian" camp pretty quickly.

So what? It would have gotten every Christian who lived prior to 325 A.D. booted out along with us. This God you don't believe in... Do you think He's going to ask "the Christian camp" to weigh in on whether or not Mormons are Christians when the time comes for Him to judge us?

Christianity is monotheistic (so to speak) while Mormonism is polytheistic since the father, son, and holy spirit are three separate gods (so to speak)

Yeah, "so to speak" is the operative phrase here, isn't it? Ask any Muslim, who believes that God has a divine Son whether Christianity is monothesistic or polythesistic. Then go ahead and apply his reasoning to the traditional Christian understanding of the nature of God and see where it gets you.

Right so how does one that is dead get baptized?

By someone receiving the ordinance on his behalf by proxy.

How does one that is dead accept Christ once dead?

Huh? Do you want to try rewording that? I don't have any idea what you're asking.

IT rather easy....but requires a much better understanding of salvation and much deeper understanding of how hell really works. One doesn't have to be baptized to get to heaven. There are plenty that get to heaven without ever being baptized or accepting Jesus.

I see... I guess. You don't believe in God, but you believe in Heaven and Hell. That's very interesting. Actually, the Bible teaches that baptism is an essential ordinance for entrance into the Kingdom of God. I would agree with you, however, that you there will be plenty that get to Heaven without ever being baptized or accepting Jesus. If that sounds as if I'm contradicting myself, perhaps it's because your understanding of salvation is limited. The Latter-day Saints, by the way, believe in an almost universal salvation.

This is getting interesting!

To accept Christ one has to do it on their own.

I agree completely.

IF you are dead you can't accept a baptism and there is no need to.

Let's skip the part about needing to accept a baptism for the time being. Assuming that you did need to, why wouldn't you be able to? Do you believe the dead are conscious of nothing until the resurrection? (That sounds very much like Jehovah's Witness doctrine to me.)

You just have to wait till the end times come and then accept Christ when given the opportunity.

The end times? Do you mean the Last Judgment or something else? Do you believe that people will be given the opportunity to accept Christ at some time after their death? (I still can't believe I'm having this conversation with an atheist. )

So aren't you just cherry picking then? After all we are talking about the guy that wrote your new testament of Christ. He had the inside scoop from the big guy himself. So if the big guy tells him that there are many gods....and SMith tells you there are many gods....then aren't there many gods? Who is lying? Smith of God?

Could you be a little bit more specific? I'm sorry, but this paragraph just doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Wow....what an absolute mangling of that scripture. That comes from I Corinthians 8:5-6 and you are taking it completely out of context.

I don't believe I am.

what is really being said is that if we ASSUME there were more gods there would only be ONE God for them....the Father.

Sounds good to me. If we assume there were "gods many," we would still have only one God. The Bible refers to gods (with a lower-case 'g') in a number of passages. I guess they didn't tell you that in your Baptist Sunday school classes, did they?

It has everything to do with saying that even IF there were other gods.....there is only one for Christians that matters. But it doesn't say that there ARE other gods at all.

Take your head out of your hand and try to grasp the fact that your opinion is not the only opinion out there. There are, in the Bible (KJV, at least) 294 references to the "gods" you say do not exist. Without question, the word is used in various ways, depending upon context. It is also fairly obvious that the word "gods" is often used to describe "false gods."

However, certain verses seem to imply the existence of "divine beings" of some sort. They do not appear to be "false gods" or anything of the sort. The Bible doesn't actually clarify who they are at all. For example:

Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? (Exodus 15:11)
Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them. (Exodus 18:11)
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward... (Deuteronomy 10:17)

Acknowledging the existence of divine beings the Bible refers to as "gods" does not mean worshipping them. If, for example, you want to insist that every reference to "gods" means "false gods," you're going to have to explain how God is not only the "God of gods" but the "God of false gods." You might also try tacking the use of the indefinite article in the phase "a great God." The indefinite article would be misleading if there were not more than one "god" to which our God can be compared. Oh, and by the way, Paul not only says that there are many who are called "gods," but he further notes that this is not only on Earth but in Heaven. Before you start interpreting my beliefs for me, let me make it 100% clear that we do not believe any other "gods" to be even remotely connected with our lives or with the universe in which we live. We don't even claim to know who or what they may be. The difference between us and other Christians is that we don't try to explain away the fact that the Bible mentions them and not always in a negative context.

But there are huge differences in how these things are viewed in their entirety and that is why other Christians do not consider the LDS Christians at all.

Some other Christians do; some don't. It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to me what they consider me. As a matter of fact, I started a thread several months ago saying that sometimes I feel as if I don't even want to be lumped in with the Christian community. I explained that this is not saying that I was denying my belief in Jesus Christ, but that I have no desire to be lumped into the same group as the people who want to exclude me from their private little club. I don't even want to belong!

Fair enough question. No. I started out Baptist....and then was later a Methodist (I know how you guys feel about Methodists! hehehehe)

We're probably nowhere near as critical of them as they are of us. How many threads on this or any other forum have you ever seen in which a Latter-day Saint has started a conversation with the intent of bashing someone else's beliefs, belittling the founder of their denomination, or saying (in the case of other Christian denominations) that they're not "the real thing" at all, but some kind of a misguided cult that is to be avoided at all costs?

 

[Humanistheart]

Why, because it doesn't agree with your holy book? Well of course, and they always will be.Oh, Baloney. First of all, many horse fossils have been found in Central Asia since poor Professor Bokonyi was quote-mined in 1974, such as these five horse heads recently discovered in Mongolia. Secondly, we're not talking about trackless steppes here. We're talking about the Americas. It's been settled and dug and excavated and explored from one end to the other. Unless it's hiding in the Amazon rainforest, it's been found. But thirdly, and this is your biggest problem, it's not just horses. It's horses and elephants and asses and cows and ox and sheep and swine and goats and wheat and barley and silk and steel and bellows and brass and metal armor and iron and plows and swords and chariots and...on and on. It's a whole way of life, lived by millions of people, for which not a shred, not an iota, not a particle of evidence has been found. Ever.

We're not talking about small items, either. For example, if you're going to smelt ore and make steel, you need an entire industry, with mining and furnaces and smelting equipment--large items.

Meanwhile, we find all kinds of other stuff. We go everywhere any Mormon suggest the mythical Lamanites and non-existent Nephites were supposed to have lived, and we find corn and monkeys and Quetzal feathers and turquoise and stone pyramids and huge enormous civilizations with complex ways of living that do not match in any way what's described in the BoM.

If it were just horses, that would be one thing, but it's everything. It's the whole book from start to finish. No evidence for any of it. And, at the same time, lots and lots of evidence for other people. That's your problem.



Well, if we excavate all over Israel, and never find any camel bones, or camel statues, or pictures of camels, or any other book or recording from the same period that refers to camels, or any evidence outside the Bible that there were ever camels there, we would doubt it, yes. That would be more like the situation you have.

If, in addition, we had no evidence of sheep or goats, asses or walls, temples, wheat, barley, gold, chariots, or any of the other technology, crops or animals mentioned in the Bible, we would certainly start to wonder if it had been written by people from the ANE. But that's not what we have.

That is what we have with the BoM.

Katz, I noticed you completely avoided this post. No counter arguement? If not, then are you prepared to admit the BoM is nonsence?

 

[Katzpur]

Katz, I noticed you completely avoided this post. No counter arguement? If not, then are you prepared to admit the BoM is nonsence?

I avoided this post because Autodidact is on my ignore list and has been for quite some time. (I recently removed the one other person on my list. Auto now has the distinction of being the only person on RF I pretend doesn't exist.) I don't even see her posts unless someone quotes them, and I never respond to them. Don't hold your breath because that's not likely to change anytime soon.

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

Based on modern revelation.

Right....revelation that people outside of Mormonism don't seem to grasp or oddly enough haven't had the SAME revelations. God of confusion? OR religions just selling their wares?

I don't understand your question. I already explained the basis for our belief that God has a corporeal body (i.e. modern revelation). All of the other things we believe about Him are pretty much consistent with what all Christians believe and are found in the Bible.

You say God is flesh and bone....yet outside of the BOM there is NOTHING at all to suggest your assertion is correct. So do you KNOW God is a flesh and bone man or is it a matter of faith?

Pretty much consistent and 100% consistent are not the same thing. In fact I would argue that you really can't say pretty consistent. Your religion is so far off the Christian mark that Christians (whom are pretty accepting of other denominations) don't consider you Christian at all. Your beliefs are simply not the same.

So what? It would have gotten every Christian who lived prior to 325 A.D. booted out, along with us. This God you don't believe in... Do you think He's going to ask "the Christian camp" to weigh in on whether or not Mormons are Christians when the time comes for Him to judge us?

This ain't about me. I'm merely pointing out why Christians, of which I am not, do not consider Mormons CHristians at all.

Christians might say that the Trinity was REVEALED to them in the Bible by the way it was written. Christ is careful to make a distinction between who he is, God, and the Holy Spirit. Yet the Hebrew word Elohim is VERY plural in nature. There are lots of things that Christians can quote from the bible that easily support their notion of the trinity.

Yeah, "so to speak" is the operative phrase here, isn't it? Ask any Muslim, who believes that God has a divine Son whether Christianity is monothesistic or polythesistic. Then go ahead and apply his reasoning to the traditional Christian understanding of the nature of God and see where it gets you.

Sure it is. Again...you love to make these things about me. I'm talking issues...you're talking me and you. don't do that. Don't personalize this conversation. IF we are talking MY thoughts....Jesus is divine as a grasshopper is. Which is to say he isn't at all.

Technically I agree with the Muslim notion that God having a son is just ridiculous.

By someone receiving the ordinance on his behalf by proxy.

Right kinda like Jesus taking your sins.....a live person can take your baptism and "give" it to you in death? That doesn't even begin to make sense.

to be baptised one has to accept Christ. What if I died....technically couldn't you baptize me in death and as such make a Christian out of me? What if I didn't WANT to be a Christian?

Huh? Do you want to try rewording that? I don't have any idea what you're asking.

Realyl simple. IF you are dead....it is too late. You cannot accept Christ until the opportunity is given again later on.

Again....I'm an Atheist. When I die.....that's it. There is no second chance. There is just nothing.

Christ is VERY ademant that you get your affairs in order BEFORE you die. You have to live in Christ today...not after you are dead.

I see... I guess. You don't believe in God, but you believe in Heaven and Hell. That's very interesting. Actually, the Bible teaches that baptism is an essential ordinance for entrance into the Kingdom of God. I would agree with you, however, that you there will be plenty that get to Heaven without ever being baptized or accepting Jesus. If that sounds as if I'm contradicting myself, perhaps it's because your understanding of salvation is limited. The Latter-day Saints, by the way, believe in an almost universal salvation.

No you got it wrong again. I believe in NONE of the above. A Christian that is well educated in their religion would also know that there is no such thing as HELL. It's nothing more than christianity doing what it does best....taking from pagans and reinventing itself.

What you say about baptism being an essential ordinance to get to heaven is a false teaching.

Baptism is a RITUAL. IT sets you apart form the rest. It's a public move into teh way of Christ. The Jews baptized....baptism is NOT unique to Christianity in any way. In fact when John the baptist was baptizing it was not for salvation....it was for REPENTENCE!

The Criminal on the cross.....not baptised. Got into heaven.

Baptism is a work and as a work cannot be bound to salvation.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9)

This is getting interesting!

Of course it is.

I agree completely.

And yet you believe in baptizing the dead?

Let's skip the part about needing to accept a baptism for the time being. Assuming that you did need to, why wouldn't you be able to? Do you believe the dead are conscious of nothing until the resurrection? (That sounds very much like Jehovah's Witness doctrine to me.)

I believe the dead are dead.

But if we are talking about religion and a Christian (ie NOR Rogue Cardinals personal beliefs)....well then the dead would be in spirit form and as such they must WAIT till the second coming before changes can be made to their placement. You have to go to either Sheol or Gehenna based on what you believed during life. You may have all the faith in the world in Jesus....after death....but in life if you didn't you have to reap the benefits of your life. As such you cannot in death suddenly switch teams. You may want to....but you can't till the end times come upon us.

The end times? Do you mean the Last Judgment or something else? Do you believe that people will be given the opportunity to accept Christ at some time after their death? (I still can't believe I'm having this conversation with an atheist. )

I can't believe you're havign this conversation with an atheist assuming the atheist believes ANY of this stuff! I'm arguing the CHRISTIAN point of view. My point of view would be much different! :bonk:

But for arguments sake....yeah...the Last Judgement is what I am refering to.

When I was a Christian, my thoughts changed on this over time....but the final result was that people would be given the opportunity to accept Christ at some time after their death.....an act that required no baptism!

Could you be a little bit more specific? I'm sorry, but this paragraph just doesn't make any sense at all to me.

To make this simple. God says there is only ONE god. Smith sasy there are many gods. One of them is wrong. My money is that both of them are wrong (I'm an Atheist) but a Christian would say that Smtih is wrong since God does not say there are many gods in the BIBLE. God asserts many times that there is only ONE God....and he's that dude.

I don't believe I am.

That's all well and good. But standard reading comprehension bears out that you are entirely wrong.

Sounds good to me. If we assume there were "gods many," we would still have only one God. The Bible refers to gods (with a lower-case 'g') in a number of passages. I guess they didn't tell you that in your Baptist Sunday school classes, did they?

The bible refers to the FALSE gods. gods made up by MAN. Any God that is not GOD....is a false god and thus does NOT exist.....if you are a Christian.

There is a HUGE difference in the Bible staking claim to any other God outside of Elohim as being God and the Mormon idea that there ARE a lot of gods because teh THINK (rather incorrectly) that the bible mentions many gods and then Mormons ASSUME those gods are real. Yet standard comprehension of words bears out that the bible is merely claiming that any IDEA of ANY other god or gods.....is false.

Some other Christians do; some don't. It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to me what they consider me. As a matter of fact, I started a thread several months ago saying that sometimes I feel as if I don't even want to be lumped in with the Christian community. I explained that this is not saying that I was denying my belief in Jesus Christ, but that I have no desire to be lumped into the same group as a lot of the "Christians" I know.

Well I can understand that. Surely all the different sects of Christinaity are wildly different in how they carry themselves. I can say the same about atheists....there are certianly those I don't wish to be lumped in with! So see it cuts both ways!

We're probably nowhere near as critical of them as they are of us. How many "anti" any religious group threads do you see Mormons starting?

I don't know. I think you have your own stack of backhanded comments that are really just left in the mouth of Joseph SMith and you guys just agree with him. You don't air it out. But you agree. You have to or you wouldn't be a Mormon! hehehe

They aren't that critical of you...until it comes up in conversation. Most I know just role their eyes when the Mormans come round door to door....they kindly accept the literature and toss it as soon as the door is closed. They don't even engage in a debate....which would be interesting.

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

Oh I do hate it when posts get edited after I've already taken the time to address them.

Take your head out of your hand and try to grasp the fact that your opinion is not the only opinion out there. There are, in the Bible (KJV, at least) 294 references to the "gods" you say do not exist. Without question, the word is used in various ways, depending upon context. It is also fairly obvious that the word "gods" is often used to describe "false gods."

We actually kinda agree here. IT all depends on context and I've covered this in the above post...but I'm hitting this specifically because of Scripture mangling.

However, certain verses seem to imply the existence of "divine beings" of some sort. They do not appear to be "false gods" or anything of the sort. The Bible doesn't actually clarify who they are at all. For example:

Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? (Exodus 15:11)

Clearly Moses is talking about all the other "gods" as worshipped by anyone else. This is a song about the defeat of the Egyptians....polytheists to be sure! This is also referenced in Exodus 8:10....which is just saying that there is no god like our God. Thus all other gods are bunk....not real.

Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them. (Exodus 18:11)

Here he is referring to how god dealt with whom? With all the other nations all of whom worship other gods. gods that are not considered real because they cannot do what God does. This verse in NO WAY says that there ARE other gods. IT says that of all the gods worshipped on earth (real or not real) that God is the greatest god....because of what he DOES. In doing nothing the other gods....are well....not gods. They do not exist.

For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward... (Deuteronomy 10:17)

Honestly, do you pray to god for guidance when you read the bible and then just look at the words and draw meaning without considering the context?

Here is what is going on.....it's REALLY simple. In saying that Lord is God of gods and Lord of lords, Moses is distinguishing the TRUE god from all teh local gods being worshipped in the land.

I swear....this is some of the most crazy mangling of scripture I have ever seen. There are NO other gods. In Judaism and true Christianity.....there is only ONE god. He has no rival. No peer. Why? Because he is unique.....rare....the only one there is. He says it himself!

Acknowledging the existence of divine beings the Bible refers to as "gods" does not mean worshipping them. If, for example, you want to insist that every reference to "gods" means "false gods," you're going to have to explain how God is not only the "God of gods" but the "God of false gods."

I've already explained this....really.....you can't just look at words on a page and not comprehend what is being said. You have to put it into context and understanding the Jewish culture would REALLY serve you well in understanding anything in the OT.

All that was said was God is God. Compared to all the FALSE gods.....God stands alone and is awesome. In fact Moses goes on to point out that GOd has such awesome power and justice that man cannot stand before him without mercy.

The "gods" were the "gods" being worshipped at the time. Like say Horus...are you saying that since Horus was worshipped by the Egyptians that he was a REAL god? Really? Cause that is your argument. IT really is. Basically at one time, Zeus, Odin, Hercules, Hera, Frigga, Mars, Jupiter, Pluto....etc.....were all real gods because people worshipped them. Baal is also a real god because he was worshipped by peopel in the bible and the bible says so.....that's what you are saying. And it's completely ridiculous.

Please don't tell me you think the Golden Calf was a real god to.

You might also try tacking the use of the indefinite article in the phase "a great God." The indefinite article would be misleading if there were not more than one "god" to which our God can be compared.

So much for the one TRUE god eh?

I've already in this thread quoted from Isaiah that God says there is only ONE God and he knows of NO other god....that basically by itself destroys any notion of there being multiple gods.

Oh, and by the way, Paul not only says that there are many who are called "gods," but he further notes that this is not only on Earth but in Heaven. Before you start interpreting my beliefs for me, let me make it 100% clear that we do not believe any other "gods" to be even remotely connected with our lives or with the universe in which we live. We don't even claim to know who or what they may be. The difference between us and other Christians is that we don't try to explain away the fact that the Bible mentions them and not always in a negative context.

I think I know what you are talking about in this and again it is a terrible mangling of scripture. How about this....why don't you just quote it so we can READ it and discuss it instead of just making an unsupported claim?

 

[Katzpur]

Right....revelation that people outside of Mormonism don't seem to grasp or oddly enough haven't had the SAME revelations. God of confusion? OR religions just selling their wares?

That's impossible to answer. It's a matter of opinion.

You say God is flesh and bone....yet outside of the BOM there is NOTHING at all to suggest your assertion is correct.

Within the Book of Mormon these is nothing to suggest that my assertion is correct. Of course, if you'd actually read the Book of Mormon, you wouldn't be making mistakes of this sort.

So do you KNOW God is a flesh and bone man or is it a matter of faith?

It's a matter of faith supported by what I believe to be reason.

Pretty much consistent and 100% consistent are not the same thing. In fact I would argue that you really can't say pretty consistent.

So what did I say about God that you believe to be inconsistent with what "real" Christians believe?

Your religion is so far off the Christian mark that Christians (whom are pretty accepting of other denominations) don't consider you Christian at all. Your beliefs are simply not the same.

Of course they're not the same. Did I ever say they were the same? And stop trying to paint two billion people with the same brush. Some other Christians believe Mormons to be their fellow Christians; others do not. And as I've already said, I couldn't care less.

Christians might say that the Trinity was REVEALED to them in the Bible by the way it was written. Christ is careful to make a distinction between who he is, God, and the Holy Spirit. Yet the Hebrew word Elohim is VERY plural in nature. There are lots of things that Christians can quote from the bible that easily support their notion of the trinity.

In all my years of debating with other Christians, none of them can point to one single solitary verse in the Bible that even resembles what is stated about the nature of God in the Nicene Creed. Mormons would say that that makes traditional Christianity wrong about the nature of God and the relationship between the members of the Godhead. We wouldn't say their belief makes them non-Christian. Christianity isn't about accepting or rejecting creeds written three hundred years or more after Jesus' death.

Sure it is. Again...you love to make these things about me. I'm talking issues...you're talking me and you. don't do that. Don't personalize this conversation. IF we are talking MY thoughts....Jesus is divine as a grasshopper is. Which is to say he isn't at all.

I'm not personalizing anything. And for the benefit of those who don't want to bother going back to see what I supposedly said to warrant this criticism, here it is: "Yeah, "so to speak" is the operative phrase here, isn't it? Ask any Muslim, who believes that God has a divine Son whether Christianity is monothesistic or polythesistic. Then go ahead and apply his reasoning to the traditional Christian understanding of the nature of God and see where it gets you."

Right kinda like Jesus taking your sins.....a live person can take your baptism and "give" it to you in death? That doesn't even begin to make sense.

Sorry. I'd try again, but I kind of think you don't really want to understand in the first place.

to be baptised one has to accept Christ. What if I died....technically couldn't you baptize me in death and as such make a Christian out of me? What if I didn't WANT to be a Christian?

You're absolutely right. Nobody can make a Christian out of somebody who doen't want to be one.

Realyl simple. IF you are dead....it is too late. You cannot accept Christ until the opportunity is given again later on.

And when will that be?

Again....I'm an Atheist. When I die.....that's it. There is no second chance. There is just nothing.

Suit yourself. I can respect that belief.

Christ is VERY ademant that you get your affairs in order BEFORE you die. You have to live in Christ today...not after you are dead.

And if you never heard of Christ? Then what?

No you got it wrong again. I believe in NONE of the above. A Christian that is well educated in their religion would also know that there is no such thing as HELL. It's nothing more than christianity doing what it does best....taking from pagans and reinventing itself.

Ah, well, I guess Mormons are well-educated in the Christian faith then, because although we believe in Hell, it's a place we believe only the tiniest fraction of people will end up in.

What you say about baptism being an essential ordinance to get to heaven is a false teaching.

I disagree.

Baptism is a RITUAL. IT sets you apart form the rest. It's a public move into teh way of Christ. The Jews baptized....baptism is NOT unique to Christianity in any way. In fact when John the baptist was baptizing it was not for salvation....it was for REPENTENCE!

Of course it's a ritual. That doesn't mean it's not an essential one. And where did I say that it was unique to Christianity?

The Criminal on the cross.....not baptised. Got into heaven.

How do you know he hadn't been baptized? I'm not saying he was, but I can guarantee you that there are plenty of convicted felons waiting on death row today who have been baptized. Besides, the scriptures don't say he got into heaven. They say he got into paradise. The two are not the same.

Baptism is a work and as a work cannot be bound to salvation.

I couldn't disagree more. But then Mormons, like Catholics, don't believe that we are saved by faith alone. Furthermore, faith is also a work.

And yet you believe in baptizing the dead?

Actually, we believe in being baptized for the dead. You don't understand the principle behind this doctrine and yet you are so quick to criticize it.

But if we are talking about religion and a Christian (ie NOR Rogue Cardinals personal beliefs)....well then the dead would be in spirit form and as such they must WAIT till the second coming before changes can be made to their placement. You have to go to either Sheol or Gehenna based on what you believed during life. You may have all the faith in the world in Jesus....after death....but in life if you didn't you have to reap the benefits of your life. As such you cannot in death suddenly switch teams. You may want to....but you can't till the end times come upon us.

Okay, so let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. Could you please answer the following questions: (1) What does being "in spirit form" mean? What is a person like while in spirit form? Is he conscious or not? (2) You don't believe you can switch teams at death. Neither do I, but you do believe your "placement" can be changed at the Second Coming.

(You know, it's difficult for me to know when you're telling me what you believe, what most Christians believe, or what Christians who know the truth about what the Bible teaches believe. Maybe that's why you think I'm trying to make it personal when I'm not.)

But for arguments sake....yeah...the Last Judgement is what I am refering to.

When I was a Christian, my thoughts changed on this over time....but the final result was that people would be given the opportunity to accept Christ at some time after their death.....an act that required no baptism!

Well, then your final belief actually is much closer to Mormon belief than it is to traditional Christian belief. Unfortunately, you are so focused on proving that Mormons aren't Christians that you have failed to recognize the fact that our beliefs are actually more like your "final belief" than you know.

To make this simple. God says there is only ONE god. Smith sasy there are many gods. One of them is wrong. My money is that both of them are wrong (I'm an Atheist) but a Christian would say that Smtih is wrong since God does not say there are many gods in the BIBLE. God asserts many times that there is only ONE God....and he's that dude.

The Bible says there are many gods but that only one of them is our God. That is what I believe.

That's all well and good. But standard reading comprehension bears out that you are entirely wrong.

And I believe that you are entirely wrong.

The bible refers to the FALSE gods. gods made up by MAN. Any God that is not GOD....is a false god and thus does NOT exist.....if you are a Christian.[/quote}Okay, so Christians believe that God is the "God of false gods." I'm glad we got that out of the way.

There is a HUGE difference in the Bible staking claim to any other God outside of Elohim as being God and the Mormon idea that there ARE a lot of gods because teh THINK (rather incorrectly) that the bible mentions many gods and then Mormons ASSUME those gods are real. Yet standard comprehension of words bears out that the bible is merely claiming that any IDEA of ANY other god or gods.....is false.

Whatever. I believe what the Bible actually says. I plead guilty as charged.

They aren't that critical of you...until it comes up in conversation.

Oh yeah? Try counting the anti-Mormon threads on this forum alone. You'd have to be blind not to notice how many there are.

Most I know just role their eyes when the Mormans come round door to door....they kindly accept the literature and toss it as soon as the door is closed. They don't even engage in a debate....which would be interesting.

Mormon missionaries don't engage in debate. That's not why they're serving missions.

 

[madhatter85]

Now for the REST of the story.....and I find this HILARIOUS. The person speaking in that quote....is SATAN. Not God. SATAN. OR at least the Serpent. So your well established doctrine is based on the words of SATAN.

The Lord said:

22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

one of us? the Lord is speaking saying one of us? Clearly he is implying multiple of something. otherwise he would say "Me" yet he says US.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I find that the Book of Mormon is very odd when stacked against the Holy Scripture. Do others see issues also?

Yes....part of my issue is with the description of the people, places, names, buildings, technology.....and yet we haven't any evidence that any of these people existed.

 

[Watchmen]

Why is any evidence of that these people existed necessary?

The Book of Mormon teaches us truths about God's plan. That's what's important.

 

[madhatter85]

Right so you do what I say other Christians do. A little bit of this and a little bit of that. Mix it all up and reinterpret the hell out of it and you get a whole new religion. Yeah.

Actually other christian faiths do not believe in continuing revelation. They believe that God is silent that he won't speak to us. they believe God either cannot speak, or does not love us enough to speak. I find both to be unfathomable.

The only way you can come to the conclusion that God was a or is a man is through the BOM. That's it.

Actually no. We are created in the image of God. Jesus Christ was resurrected and has a body of flesh and bone. He was but the FIRST to be resurrected. Do you honestly believe that after he was resurrected he ditched his physical body somewhere?

The word is not in the Bible....but one could easily make a fine argument that it is biblical.
My point for bringing up the trinity is that in general if you don't believe in it then you cannot be a Christian. Mormons do not...thus you ain't a Christian, according to christians.

No, Trinitarians are Trinitarians. Since there were Christians long before the bible was produced, belief in the trinity nor in the bible are what makes one a Christian.

contrare mon freir. You have 3 separate gods. Christianity found a clever to wrap them up into one thus being monotheistic.

Yes, clever enough to completely destroy the true nature of the Godhead and their roles in the plan of salvation. exceptionally clever indeed.

I would say that over time my understanding of what happens in the end has changed dramatically over time. There was a time when bad people went to hell and good people went to heaven.

Later I discovered that Hell is a mythological place invented by pagans and adopted by Christians. The evolution of "hell" over time in Christianity is a story of really interesting note and study. I highly recommend you put some effort into research on this subject.

Oh hell is a very real place, It's called different names, And what we call it is "outer darkness." and exceptionally few people who have ever lived on this earth will actually qualify for that reward at the final judgment. See, the only way you can get there is the same route Satan took, Coming out in open rebellion against god after having been given the fullness of the gospel.

In a nut shell though I feel it fair to explain what my belief would be if I were still a Christian. People die. Those that died believing in Christ go to go to Heaven first. Everyone that died BEFORE Christ is still in Sheol or Gehenna. At the 2nd coming (which I don't believe in because I don't believe Christ to be the Messiah but that's another thread all together) those people that were in Sheol or Gehenna will get the opportunity to accept Christ (thus nullifying the silly notion of baptism after death). Most people upon seeing Christ will have no choice but to accept. Those that will not will be annihilated. There is no eternal punishment. There is only oblivion in the end for the nonbelievers. Also Heaven is NOT the last place for the believers. The Earth will be made right again and there will be Heaven on Earth so to speak.

See you have bits and pieces correct but alot of what you said is not correct
Baptism is Essential: Suffer it to be so now to fulfill all righteousness, Matt. 3: 15. Jesus came and was baptized of John, Mark 1: 9. The Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God, being not baptized, Luke 7: 30.Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, John 3: 5. Repent, and be baptized every one of you, Acts 2: 38.
Baptism is outlined as a requirement in the Bible. since God cannot lie i would like to ask you how you think baptism is not essential?

So what is REALLY being talked about here? Very simple. It's simply talking about the resurrection of CHrist. It's saying that Christ DID come back from the dead and that if he hadn't then everythign Christ taught would have been bunk. All dead folks get "raised" from teh dead in one form or another. THere is NOTHING about baptism in this passage at all. IT means that if you died believing in Christ and Christ had not resurrected then you would be lost.

We agree that if Christ had not been resurrected, nobody else would have been able to be resurrected. There were many saints that rose from the grave right after Christ was resurrected.

I don't have to. I can read very well. You might say that the Lord has revealed to me in ALL of his profoundly poorly written texts that his religions are all false. So you see....I'm like you in believing that the other guys are false....but I just happen to lump your religion with the rest of them. Me being an equal opportunist and all.

Then we will just have to agree to disagree. I believe that the guidance of the Holy Ghost is essential to interpret the scriptures correctly. The arm of flesh:
Jeremiah 17
2 Nephi 4

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Why is any evidence of that these people existed necessary?

The Book of Mormon teaches us truths about God's plan. That's what's important.

Teaches you truth of God's plan....and yet it starts off by lying about the existence of the people contained in it? What truth can come from a lie?

The back drop may not be important to you but to me it is....The Op is asking what is odd about the BoM and that, personally, is what I find "Odd"......

 

[Autodidact]

Why is any evidence of that these people existed necessary?

The Book of Mormon teaches us truths about God's plan. That's what's important.

Couple of thoughts:

1. It's necessary if you're going to believe they existed.
2. If a book can't even guess right about the people it's about, why would you trust it to teach you truths about something as important as God's plan?

 

[cardero]

Why is any evidence of that these people existed necessary?

The Book of Mormon teaches us truths about God's plan. That's what's important.

But is that what the Book of Mormon teaches? Truth? Or does it teach people that they must put faith that GOD has a plan? The question that I am asking is not whether you believe the Book Of Mormon to be true but whether the book is Truth?

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

That's impossible to answer. It's a matter of opinion.

Well if it's a matter of opinion then why does it get presented as though it is fact?

Within the Book of Mormon these is nothing to suggest that my assertion is correct. Of course, if you'd actually read the Book of Mormon, you wouldn't be making mistakes of this sort.

So you admit there is no reason on earth to think that God is a man of flesh and bone?

It's a matter of faith supported by what I believe to be reason.

What do you believe to be the reason? What reason is it that escapes all other forms of "Christianity" that God is a man?

So what did I say about God that you believe to be inconsistent with what "real" Christians believe?

You think God is a man.

You think there are many gods besides God and they are just as real as God.

Those ideas are NOT shared among Christians.....at all.

Of course they're not the same. Did I ever say they were the same? And stop trying to paint two billion people with the same brush. Some other Christians believe Mormons to be their fellow Christians; others do not. And as I've already said, I couldn't care less.

Percentage wise....the vast majority of "Christians" Do not view Mormons as Christians. Outside of Mormonism....the percentage is low enough as to almost be nonexistent. I understand keeping hope alive. Someday maybe you will be on equal footing....but that day isn't today.

And I'm simply point out that you are generalizing and are therefore mistaken.

I'm not generalizing. The vast majority of Christian denominations view Mormons as a CULT. These are not my words. They are the words of Christians. So it's not a generalization on my part....a a matter of fact to the vast majority of Christians.

In all my years of debating with other Christians, none of them can point to one single solitary verse in the Bible that even resembles what is stated about the nature of God in the Nicene Creed. Mormons would say that that makes traditional Christianity wrong about the nature of God and the relationship between the members of the Godhead. We wouldn't say their belief makes them non-Christian.

Well my answer to that is that I find many CHristians lacking when it comes to knowing history of their own religion. That's something I cannot say for Mormons....though I can say that at this point Mormons do not possess, like other Christians, a deep understanding of the Jewish tradition or history. As such things get very corrupted as each new denomination stakes it's claim to authenticity.

What you have to understand about the Nicene creed is that the nature of God is viewed....through scripture....to CHristians.....to be revealed as a Trinity. It's based on what each says about the other. Mormons on the other hand have the word of Joseph Smith....a failed prophet. Whom according to the Bible we shouldn't listen to.

Christianity isn't about accepting or rejecting creeds written three hundred years or more after Jesus' death.

Of course not...if it was we wouldn't even be talking about Mormonism would we?

I'm not personalizing anything. And for the benefit of those who don't want to bother going back to see what I supposedly said to warrant this criticism, here it is: "Yeah, "so to speak" is the operative phrase here, isn't it? Ask any Muslim, who believes that God has a divine Son whether Christianity is monothesistic or polythesistic. Then go ahead and apply his reasoning to the traditional Christian understanding of the nature of God and see where it gets you."

Where it get who???? Me....right. Like I give two farts about what a Muslim thinks as it pertains to this conversation.

Sorry. I'd try again, but I kind of think you don't really want to understand in the first place.

Oh I'd love to understand. I just don't see how you get that we can baptize the dead on one hand and then say that you agree with Christians that you have to accept Jesus for yourself. You cannot by proxy ASSUME that a person wanted a relationship wtih Christ after they are dead. Biblically your religions thoughts on this do not begin to add up. Please support this notion or retract it.

And when will that be?

According to Christians....The 2nd coming and not a second before then.

And if you never heard of Christ? Then what?

Then you are innocent and ignorant of the "fact". God cannot punish you for not having ever heard of Christ....that's why there are staging areas and they have nothing to do with punishment.

The idea that someone that doesn't believe or know of Christ will go to Hell is a modern Christian belief and a complete break with the BIble.

Ah, well, I guess Mormons are well-educated in the Christian faith then, because although we believe in Hell, it's a place we believe only the tiniest fraction of people will end up in.

And if you really knew anything on the subject you'd understand why there is no such place as hell. You'd also understand where the word came from and that the concept in modern Christianity is a complete misnomer.

I disagree.

Disagree all you want....but the facts bear themselves out in the Bible.

Of course it's a ritual. That doesn't mean it's not an essential one. And where did I say that it was unique to Christianity?

I ddin't say that you did say it was unique. I was hoping that you didn't think it was as to make conversation easier and not have to get into tedious side arguments.

How do you know he hadn't been baptized? I'm not saying he was, but I can guarantee you that there are plenty of convicted felons waiting on death row today who have been baptized. Besides, the scriptures don't say he got into heaven. They say he got into paradise. The two are not the same.

Because he didn't accept Christ till the moment they shared on the Cross. he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Also like Hell....Heaven has a lot of misconceptions....or dare I say evolutions over time. IT is said in some writings that Heaven is divided into seven levels. The word in Hebrew is "shamayim" which is ambiguos and PLURAL of all things. Thus this has led to many interpretations of Heaven over time. It is easily argued then as such that Paradise is one of the levels of Heaven and as such the criminal went to heaven.....which level? Whatever paradise level is.

I couldn't disagree more. But then Mormons, like Catholics, don't believe that we are saved by faith alone. Furthermore, faith is also a work.

You are saved by grace. Faith is not a work. Works mean NOTHING. You should do the right thing because it is the right thing to do....not because you think it will gain you something in Heaven. A lot of Christians totally get that wrong. Even the Disciples got it wrong. They didn't get it.

Actually, we believe in being baptized for the dead. You don't understand the principle behind this doctrine and yet you are so quick to criticize it.

No I get it. IT comes from a sense of justice. It comes from the "What if you never heard about Jesus" misunderstanding that I have already partially addressed in this post.

"It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27)

Judgement comes afer death.Nto even Catholics think that God would punish a person that doesn't know about God or JEsus through any act of his own. IT would be unjust to punish someone that is ignorant of the "fact". And since God cannot be unjust God cannot punish someone for not knowing what they could not have known.

I would point you to Acts 10:44-48 Where people recieved God BEFORE ever being baptized. These were just peopel that desired to know the truth and just didn't know that God was the truth.

In a nutshell...God can let into Heaven whomever he wants....baptism is a symbol and nothing more. IT doesn't matter to god.

In fact if you want to get real about it.....your Doctrines and Covenants contradict your BOM and as a result modern Mormons view on baptizing of the dead is NOTHING like that which your prophet first taught about.

"For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked."

In other words....if you die and you are not a Mormon...you go to hell. Period. End of story.

But wait there is more from the BOM

2 Nephi 9:15: "And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One of Israel, and then cometh the judgment and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. For the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy . . . shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end."

So really there is NO need to baptize the dead or baptize for the dead or any other such thing.

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

Post 2 of 2.....God I'm getting long winded in my old age.

Okay, so let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. Could you please answer the following questions: (1) What does being "in spirit form" mean? What is a person like while in spirit form? Is he conscious or not? (2) You don't believe you can switch teams at death. Neither do I, but you do believe your "placement" can be changed at the Second Coming.

I am an Atheist....arguing the Christian point of view on some fo these things. "In spirit form" would be the form you go to when you die. You are no longer HUMAN. The body is a vessel that you need no more. This is Christianity 101 stuff. Come on.

Are they conscious? Of course. Can you experience the hellfire if you are not conscious? But you ARE seperated from God. Doesn't matter that you are dead and realized, "Oh Crap....Katzpur was right and there IS a God" that won't matter. Judgement hasn't come yet. As a result....I'd be stuck in one of the staging areas. IT would not be Heaven nor hell.

It was my belief as a Christian.....that when you die you go to a staging area...Sheol if you are a believer....Gehenna if you ain't. At the day of Judgement.....you can accept God and go to Heaven or you can renounce God and go to Annihilation...which is not hell....it's just not existing at all. You want complete seperation from God? That would be it.

(You know, it's difficult for me to know when you're telling me what you believe, what most Christians believe, or what Christians who know the truth about what the Bible teaches believe. Maybe that's why you think I'm trying to make it personal when I'm not.)

:angel2: That's very possible!

Always assume....that I am an Atheist and as such I don't believe in ANY of this stuff. I am neither anti-mormon nor anti-Christian. I am neither Pro-Mormon or Pro-Christian. I don't believe in ANY of this stuff. What I DO is read this stuff, admittedly I'm learning a lot about Mormonism as for obvious reasons it was not something I gave two rips about when I was a Christian.

At any rate if I am paralleling Mormonism and Christianity....know that I am speaking on behalf of Christianity and those ideas are not the beliefs of mine at all.

But it's always good for clarity sake to ask if you are unsure....and I think sometimes you do. Which is good. I think we both use the word "you" too much....and perhaps that is the real source of our confusion with each other.

Well, then your final belief actually is much closer to Mormon belief than it is to traditional Christian belief. Unfortunately, you are so focused on proving that Mormons aren't Christians that you have failed to recognize the fact that our beliefs are actually more like your "final belief" than you know.

Well it really depends on which branch of Christianity you talk about. for example....my ideas actually line up REALLY swell with Anglicans more than anything else.

But as to my "final" belief....I belief it's all phony.

Personally, if I HAD to pick a religion whose idea of "the end" I like the best...it would be Hindu. The reason? Everyone makes to Heaven some just need more opportunities at living life to get there than others. You get multiple chances and eventually you will get it right. That's way better than anyone elses version as far as I am concerned.

The Bible says there are many gods but that only one of them is our God. That is what I believe.

Support or retract.

And I believe that you are entirely wrong.

Right but you cannot support why.....while I have supported why I believe you to be wrong. See the difference?

The bible refers to the FALSE gods. gods made up by MAN. Any God that is not GOD....is a false god and thus does NOT exist.....if you are a Christian.

as compared to

Okay, so Christians believe that God is the "God of false gods." I'm glad we got that out of the way.

What in the world are YOU talking about? There are no other Gods. There never were. It's not that God is a god of false gods.....its' that no other god is God and thus THOSE gods are false gods.....and also not real.

When you were talking about "gods" in the bible....you were acting like they were REAL gods. In the context of the Bible....those "gods" that are not "The God" are just made up gods. IF they were real....GOd woudl be over them because he is better. But they ain't....and thus God is better by default.

Whatever. I believe what the Bible actually says. I plead guilty as charged.

No you don't. You believe what Joseph Smith thinks the Bible says but does not. You insert ideas that are simply not there and against what the bible DOES say.

AGAIN

Isaiah 44:8
"Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell is long ago? you are my witnesses. IS there ANY God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I KNOW NOT ONE."

Thus.....thre are no "gods".....there is only "God".

The bible says it....thus your "ideas" of multiple gods must be a perversion of the "truth".

Oh yeah? Try counting the anti-Mormon threads on this forum alone. You'd have to be blind not to notice how many there are.

Well it came up in conversation didn't it? Are they anti-mormon or are they just willing to debate with you? Sure some of them might be anti-Mormon....you think I'm anti-Mormon.....I'm just wanting to debate. I have NO dog in this hunt. I am merely pitting one set of beliefs verses another and letting you provide that other side of the story. My attempt is to understand further your position....though I may do it in a way that at times to you seems rather like I am attacking your religion.....Trust me....most theists think they are being attacked when their own beliefs are even casually contested or questioned.

It's a matter of perspective. I for one don't think I am being attacked when say a Theist vehemently disagrees with MY personal beliefs. Why should I feel attacked? The best they can do is resort to name calling and that's just plain easy to avoid....don't feed the troll. I just don't talk to them. But if they have QUESTIONS or want me to defend MY beliefs....why should I feel threatened? They are just questions which in my mind are valid to ask.

Mormon missionaries don't engage in debate. That's not why they're serving missions.

I was speaking more to the people of whoms door was being knocked on. It would be interesting if they engaged with the Mormons. But they don't. They right them off and look at it as an inconvenience.

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

The Lord said:

one of us? the Lord is speaking saying one of us? Clearly he is implying multiple of something. otherwise he would say "Me" yet he says US.

Yes but THAT ain't what you quoted. You quoted Genesis 3:5 while forgetting Genesis 3:4.

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Bold = emphasis mine.

Now to address the other.

You have to understand this was originally written in HEBREW. Traditionally....Kings us the word "us" to refer to themselves as it denotes majesty. See....stuff like this is why I tell people they REALLY need to get into this stuff and KNOW it...not just read words.

OF course Christians would argue that this verse implies the Trinity.

But besides that....we know from Job 33:4 and Psalms 104:30 that the Spirit was present at Creation and from Colossians 1:16 we know that Christ was at work in Creation.

What we do not get....is the implication that there are all these other gods floating about. That is a bigger assumption than what CHristians do.

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

Why is any evidence of that these people existed necessary?

The Book of Mormon teaches us truths about God's plan. That's what's important.

So allegory is cool with you? That's what stories like the Creation and Job are....allegories. Nothing more. AS long as you get the message....it's all good. The message is more important than the authenticity of the story.

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

Actually other christian faiths do not believe in continuing revelation. They believe that God is silent that he won't speak to us. they believe God either cannot speak, or does not love us enough to speak. I find both to be unfathomable.

Completely untrue. They believe the word has been given and that it is up to man. God has given signs and performed miracles and man still does not belief. Man did not belief in the presence of God thus God understands that man has to make up his own mind. Freewill and all that jazz. They believe God speaks....sometimes man just won't listen.

Actually no. We are created in the image of God. Jesus Christ was resurrected and has a body of flesh and bone. He was but the FIRST to be resurrected. Do you honestly believe that after he was resurrected he ditched his physical body somewhere?

No I don't believe Jesus was resurrected at all. I believe Jesus was a man that taught a long time ago and then he was murdered. That's it. I don't believe we have souls. Though I do believe some musicians of soul....no man has A soul.

WE might LOOK like God but that doesn't mean God is a MAN. Barbie might LOOK like a woman....created in the image of a woman...but she is NOT a woman. Jstu like man is NOT a god.

No, Trinitarians are Trinitarians. Since there were Christians long before the bible was produced, belief in the trinity nor in the bible are what makes one a Christian.

Agreed....but now adays....you no believe in the Trinity....you no Christian. It's an understood thing based on scripture.

Yes, clever enough to completely destroy the true nature of the Godhead and their roles in the plan of salvation. exceptionally clever indeed.

Pot meet Kettle.

Oh hell is a very real place, It's called different names, And what we call it is "outer darkness." and exceptionally few people who have ever lived on this earth will actually qualify for that reward at the final judgment. See, the only way you can get there is the same route Satan took, Coming out in open rebellion against god after having been given the fullness of the gospel.

Hell is not a real place at all. The original concept of hell as you see it today has no place in the ancient traditions that your faith is founded upon. Hell as you know it today didn't even come into existence until the 1400's and it still wasn't what it is today.

Hell is a misnomer and real an error due to translation. Sheol and Gehenna didn't translate into GREEK well. So the greeks took the pagan notion of hell that was similar and transposed it onto the original notions. Forever messing up the original notion for most religions that fall under Christianity...though some are smart enough to actually do their homework and know the truth.

See you have bits and pieces correct but alot of what you said is not correct
Baptism is Essential: Suffer it to be so now to fulfill all righteousness, Matt. 3: 15.

So the question becomes WHY did JEsus get baptised? prior to this as I said earlier, baptism was just a thing you did for repentence. Jesus was sinless....thus why would he need to repent? Jesus saw his baptism as advancing God's work. Jesus was baptised for several reasons:
1. he was confesing sin on behalf of the nation, as Nehemiah, Ezra, Moses, and Daniel had done.
2. He was showing support for what John was doing....a symbolic gesture.
3. he was inaugurating his public ministry.
4. He was identifying with teh penitent people of God, not with the critical Pharisees who were watching.

Honestly I don't know where people come up with this stuff.

Jesus came and was baptized of John, Mark 1: 9. The Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God, being not baptized, Luke 7: 30.

Holy moly. They did not accept that Christ was the savior....thus they naturally would not be baptised as it would be in poor form to acknowledge a false prophet.

You don't really know anything about Judaism do you? Man if Christians did....they actually understand what their religious texts actually say.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, John 3: 5.

Unreal. Jesus is being asked how an old man can be reborn. HE is talking about a spiritual rebirth. "Of water and spirit" coudl refer to the contrast between physical birth (water) and spiritual birth (spirit) or being regenerated be the spirit and signifying that rebirth by Christian baptism. All Jesus is saying is that people don't enter the kingdom by living a better life, but by being spiritually reborn.

Again there are people that simply get into heaven because God wishes it so....and there are stories...as have already been pointed out in this thread recently of situations were people get a pass and no baptism is needed at all. God's will and all that.

Repent, and be baptized every one of you, Acts 2: 38.
Baptism is outlined as a requirement in the Bible. since God cannot lie i would like to ask you how you think baptism is not essential?

Baptism is a symbol. Nothing more. It's a public confession of faith. Nothing more. When the disciples went out spreading the word....they required people to be baptised. god doesn't require it. Jesus doesn't require it. IT was and still is a symbolic gesture of being reborn spiritually.

We agree that if Christ had not been resurrected, nobody else would have been able to be resurrected. There were many saints that rose from the grave right after Christ was resurrected.

Well that all depends on WHICH version of the Easter story you want to believe. See the COOL thing about EAster morning is that if you put the stories in chronological order and read them....what you find is that they actually are literary devices that become LEGEND and nothing more.

In fact the first two times there story is told....there is NO bodily ascension story. It gets more and more dramatic and by the time you get to the last version (John's version) the whole thing is epic and almost like a bad LSD trip.

We do not agree....the resurrection of Christ is a story. I beleive it to be a lie by early church members to help ressurect a dying religion. AT any rate.....I triple dog dare you to get the bible out.....put the stories in chronological order and read them making note of every extraordinary thing that happens.

IF you need help in supplying the order...I'll be more than glad to help you.

Then we will just have to agree to disagree. I believe that the guidance of the Holy Ghost is essential to interpret the scriptures correctly. The arm of flesh:
Jeremiah 17
2 Nephi 4

Sacrilige! Heresy!

 

[Watchmen]

Teaches you truth of God's plan....and yet it starts off by lying about the existence of the people contained in it? What truth can come from a lie?

The back drop may not be important to you but to me it is....The Op is asking what is odd about the BoM and that, personally, is what I find "Odd"......

See my sig.