What is odd about the Book of Mormon?

[Watchmen]

Couple of thoughts:

1. It's necessary if you're going to believe they existed.
2. If a book can't even guess right about the people it's about, why would you trust it to teach you truths about something as important as God's plan?

1. Why is such belief that they existed necessary? Necessary for what?

2. Again, you're focusing on what you think the book is about and ignoring the bigger picture.

 

[Watchmen]

But is that what the Book of Mormon teaches? Truth? Or does it teach people that they must put faith that GOD has a plan? The question that I am asking is not whether you believe the Book Of Mormon to be true but whether the book is Truth?

Yes - I believe "the book is Truth."

I also believe whether the events portrayed are historically accurate or not is irrelevant to that Truth.

I think those who claim everything in the Bible literally happened are in the minority - why must it be different for the Book of Mormon? What's wrong with taking it as stories provided by God to teach us about Him and His plan?

 

[Watchmen]

So allegory is cool with you? That's what stories like the Creation and Job are....allegories. Nothing more. AS long as you get the message....it's all good. The message is more important than the authenticity of the story.

Of course allegory is cool with me. It's one of the primary ways God teaches us.

 

[Sententia]

Of course allegory is cool with me. It's one of the primary ways God teaches us.

Just to clarify? You 'believe' that is the primary way 'God' teaches you. (I hope)

If memory serves, Mormons believe in many gods and none of those gods are Isis and Ra although they are not explicitly forbidden. (Or are they?) So saying its the primary way 'God' singular, as in the God... you believe in... as a Jehovah Witness I want to say Yhwh or Jehovah and as a Catholic I want to say the Father the Son and the Holy spirit. (The latter, like the two former I vehemently deny... But its my opinion... You are free to choose whatever).

Anyways... To say its the Primary way... Without the qualifiers is odd... Did whatever god you believe in teach whatever version of Joe Smith you think existed in that fashion or did he instead send real angels down and gold plates etc etc... He didn't teach some allegorical concept he sent the real deal to restore whatever was presumed to be a lost priest hood. (hee... i before e... is amusing me for some reason)

Anyways. To sum up. Look at a bat's skeleton. See its hands and compare to your hands. Look at the pterodactyl skeleton. See that crazy pinky finger? Look at how a horse or a dolphin looks. (Really I'm not arguing that your belief system exempts you from believing in evolution... my point is more subtle). The life here on earth is really not all that different from one another. We are trained to see the differences. We were not long ago not conscious or as intelligent as we are today. We can prove we were simpler creatures. Creatures not able to comprehend a god. Eventually we evolved.

Now we are smarter... Your belief system says that after billions of years humans evolved. Almost immediately after (And Im gonna throw adam and eve, Noah and his crazy gathering animals two by two and putting em on the ark, the whole jonah in the whale bs, etc etc etc.... out the window and just regard it as allegorical and start at Jesus)... So anyways almost immediately after humans gained consciousness Jesus came. Did whatever. (Stories vary from didnt exist, to just breathed and was around to performed ridiculous and unverifiable miracles before dying for our sins only to rise, like a zombie from his grave.)

Whatever you believe. (And Im not sure really on this what mormons think... Since they call themselves christians I am fairly certain they believe in christ but to what extent who knows). Anyways almost immediately after that. (Considering the billions of years it took to get to jesus....) They sent Joe Smith to read some gold plates with mystic translations spectacles or stones or whatever you happen to regard them as.

And then... Almost instantaneously after that we are posting here.

Time scale wise... I think its ludicrous. A lot of people say it had to be this way so we would be more like him. (Assuming him has a way any human could ever approximate and that god is actually a him). I personally don't believe humans are anywhere close to evolved enough to make claims of spiritually understanding anything and those that do are not necessarily delusioned or doing so because of their own needs or out of desperation, although sometimes, but usually its just the way they are wired.

Which is fine. But its certainly not plain or true and I only say that because of the way you stated it. Others believe in the FSM and Allah as fervently as you believe in your god(s) and don't even get me started on Scientology. (And really they believe just as faithfully and with as much reverence as you do in their beliefs.)

At the end of the day can you act morally without religion? (Yes, obviously... and all the other questions are yes too. Factually and not just in my opinion) Can you help others without believing in god? Can you raise kids morally and properly without religion? Can you be beneficial and supportive of your society and even of those who have religion without yourself having a religion? Can you be as fulfilled in this life and accomplish just as much as another who believes in a god you yourself do not?

I don't see the point in following the random writings of ancient people we collected and considered holy. I mean its a ridiculous story of creations... They are against eating shellfish. The bible thinks the bat is a bird... Moses parts the red sea but today's priests would never believe they had such power let alone try but they fully believe in ridiculous miracles so long as they happened a few 1000 years ago. (As everyone knows a few 1000 years makes all the difference... well atleast it has a tendency to chill people out when considering the cave of wonders.... Awesome movie btw)

Considering most of the BOM is directly plagiarized from ye olde bible with added ramblings of other sources Joe perused and mixed with his own imagination. (Justified by visits from all manners of spiritual sources like angels and real physical proof like plates of gold that are now up in la la land heaven...) Considering in Joes short life he wanted to be president, spent a lot of time in court for being a scam artist, has known works now knows to be shams, claimed ridiculous spiritual proofs and left no evidence save his writings of the BOM. (Much as Scientology wants you to believe based on their only evidence... their texts.... which were written by L Ron Hubbard... Need I really say more?)

Anyways... other things I think odd.... It was written in 17th century english? Why? So many people consider it true. (And by so many I mean a few.... relatively speaking there are more atheists in the US of A then there are Mormons worldwide. Considering the USA attributes 40% of its population to believing in a worldwide flood that killed everything except whatever Noah stored on his ark.... thats kinda of astounding.)

 

[madhatter85]

Yes but THAT ain't what you quoted. You quoted Genesis 3:5 while forgetting Genesis 3:4.

It's irrelevant. you knew what I was getting at and you knew what was said 18 verses later.

You have to understand this was originally written in HEBREW. Traditionally....Kings us the word "us" to refer to themselves as it denotes majesty. See....stuff like this is why I tell people they REALLY need to get into this stuff and KNOW it...not just read words.

OF course Christians would argue that this verse implies the Trinity.

You proved my point...

But besides that....we know from Job 33:4 and Psalms 104:30 that the Spirit was present at Creation and from Colossians 1:16 we know that Christ was at work in Creation.

What we do not get....is the implication that there are all these other gods floating about. That is a bigger assumption than what CHristians do.

go back and read what you said. you admitted that The Lord said "us" which implied majesty. Do you not see the connection? This is why you need to read it with the Holy Spirit

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

It's irrelevant. you knew what I was getting at and you knew what was said 18 verses later.

It's not irrelevant at all. You quoted Satan and you said you believed him. How is that not important? In the least how is that not funny?

You proved my point...

Not at all.....did you READ what I said. You are claiming many gods because of the usage fo the word "us". What I am saying is that the word "us" is an honorific that implies majesty....not plural. A common practice of old kings. Whom when used the word "us" was refering to themselves....and no one else.

go back and read what you said. you admitted that The Lord said "us" which implied majesty. Do you not see the connection? This is why you need to read it with the Holy Spirit

Right majesty.....not plural gods. No Holy Spirit needed.

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

Of course allegory is cool with me. It's one of the primary ways God teaches us.

Fair enough.....but let me ask you teh same question I would ask any theist. IF the vast majoity of what you are taught is allegory that is written as though it really happened, how do you disguish between teh stories that a REAL stories and the stories that are just allegory? Be mindful that different sects of religoin consider different ones literal and different ones allegory.

 

[Autodidact]

See my sig.

But then John Steinbeck wrote fiction. Is the BoM fiction?

 

[Autodidact]

1. Why is such belief that they existed necessary? Necessary for what?

It's not necessary for anything. In fact, to be correct, it's necessary not to believe it. And, of course, the overwhelming majority of the world's Mormons do believe it, because it's in their book, and their divinely inspired leaders have told them it's true.

2. Again, you're focusing on what you think the book is about and ignoring the bigger picture.

No, you're not following me. If the book is wrong about little picture (for several hundred pages) why would you give it any credibility for big picture?

And if it's allegory, then it's really retarded. What on earth is it allegory for, do what God says or he'll turn you black? And why would you need several hundred pages of allegory, for heaven's sake? An allegory should be short and clear, or it's ineffective.

Anyway, is that what you're saying, the BoM is one big, poorly written, plagiarized, long-winded allegory?

 

[Autodidact]

Yes - I believe "the book is Truth."

I also believe whether the events portrayed are historically accurate or not is irrelevant to that Truth.

I think those who claim everything in the Bible literally happened are in the minority - why must it be different for the Book of Mormon? What's wrong with taking it as stories provided by God to teach us about Him and His plan?

What makes you think I'm advocating the Bible?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It make little difference If the BOM is thought by others to be fact, fiction, allegory or what ever.
It clearly helps in establishing the Christian Faith amongst the LDS membership.

 

[Autodidact]

It make little difference If the BOM is thought by others to be fact, fiction, allegory or what ever.
It clearly helps in establishing the Christian Faith amongst the LDS membership.

And why would that be a good thing?

So the truth doesn't matter, as long as more people subscribe to your religion?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

And why would that be a good thing?

So the truth doesn't matter, as long as more people subscribe to your religion?

I only mentioned What others thought...
Christians do not believe the Koran to be true
Muslims do not believe the Bible to be true.
Why should the BOM be thought to be any different.

I would expect all LDS to believe the BOM.
However just like a majority of Other Christians have some doubts about parts of the Bible, I would not be surprised if some LDS have doubts about some of the BOM.

This would not invalidate their general belief in it, nor its truth.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

See my sig.

.....

He wrote fiction.....unless you contend the book is mostly fiction.

 

[madhatter85]

It's not irrelevant at all.

Of course you are going to do nothing but focus in this. Should have expected nothing less.

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

Of course you are going to do nothing but focus in this. Should have expected nothing less.

I don't know of any Christian in his right mind that would quote Satan as if to old up their own view of the nature of God. Why would ANYONE take satan's word for it?

But of course instead of laughing it off.....you are goign to belly ache about it. It was funny.....admit it and let's move on.:fork::devil::seesaw:

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

At any rate I will tell you what else is interesting about the BOM.......KOLOB. Depending on what you read and where you are reading....it's a star....or a planet.....where god live's with his wife. Yeah that's interesting.

 

[Katzpur]

At any rate I will tell you what else is interesting about the BOM.......KOLOB. Depending on what you read and where you are reading....it's a star....or a planet.....where god live's with his wife. Yeah that's interesting.

Kolob is not even mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and in none of the LDS scriptures is God said to live on Kolob. Why do you insist on making statements that do nothing more than prove your ignorance.

 

[Autodidact]

Here is the FAIR synposis of the BoM:

Lehi, a wealthy and faithful Israelite of the tribe of Manasseh, lives in Jerusalem in the late 7th century B.C. Having heard the preaching of Jeremiah and other prophets, he prays to God and receives a vision. Lehi is told by God that Jerusalem will be destroyed and the Lehi should take his family and flee into the wilderness and that they will be led to a promised land.
Lehi, his wife Sariah, and their children leave Jerusalem and travel southward. Lehi’s four oldest sons, Laman, Lemuel, Sam, and Nephite, are sent back to Jerusalem to obtain the Hebrew scriptures and other writings, as well as to bring Ishmael and his family to join Lehi’s group. Lehi’s group travels south through what is now Saudi Arabia and then east to the shore of the Arabian Sea. There they build boats and travel to the western hemisphere.
After arriving in the Americas, Lehi dies and the family group splits into two factions: the Lamanites (those following the eldest son Laman) and the Nephites (those following the righteous, younger son Nephi).
The Lamanites quickly fall into idolatry and reject their religious heritage and culture. The Nephites, however, generally follow the religious traditions of Abraham and Moses, though they often fall into idolatry, materialism, and other sins. A series of prophets are sent to the Nephites to keep them faithful to the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and to the teachings of Moses. These prophets also teach that the Messiah will be sent to the Israelites in Jerusalem, and that after He is crucified at Jerusalem He will appear to the Nephites and bring peace.
These two groups remain in a state of near constant warfare, with the Lamanites being significantly more numerous than the Nephites. The Nephites migrate north several times, and during the 3rd century B.C. they come into contact with a civilization descended from a group of Jews that had fled Jerusalem at the time of its destruction (the Mulekites). The Mulekites and Nephites combine and are thereafter referred to as Nephites.
The climax of the Book of Mormon is a cataclysmic destruction of much of the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations at the time of the crucifixion of Jesus in Jerusalem. Shortly after this destruction the resurrected Jesus Christ appears to the surviving righteous people. Christ establishes a church among the people and delivers to them many of the teachings that appear in the New Testament gospel.
There follows a period of about 200 years of peace and harmony, after which the people begin again to break apart into factions. By the mid 4th century A.D., the people are again divided into Lamanites and Nephites, but both having rejected Christ and His teachings. There is a major battle around the year A.D. 385 which destroys nearly all of the Nephites. The book ends with the writings of Mormon and his son Moroni, the two last Nephite prophets. They create the Book of Mormon by abridging the records of their civilization and writing the text on gold plates. The final entry in the Book of Mormon is written around A.D. 421 by Moroni and indicates that God instructed him to bury the plates and that they will be found and translated in the future.
There is one additional civilization that is discussed in the Book of Mormon. The Jaredites were a group that left the Old World around the time of the Tower of Babel and were led by God to the Americas. This culture lasted from approximately 2200 B.C. until the 4th or 5th century B.C. The Mulekites had met a survivor of the Jaredites, and the Nephites found a written history of that people as recorded by a Jaredite prophet named Ether. Moroni’s abridgement of, and commentary on, this record appears within the Book of Mormon as the Book of Ether.

(Sorry, I can't force myself to slog through it myself.)

What on earth could that possibly be an allegory for? It purports to be entirely a history of people who lived in the New World. If it's inaccurate about that, which is its complete total plot, why would you trust it about God etc?

If it's supposed to be fiction, why didn't Smith, or Moroni, or someone, say so? And how does a fictional character get a real son who appears to Joseph Smith, or is that fiction too?

 

[LittleNipper]

Of course it does, Have you even read it for yourself?
Not at all.. Again, have you even read it for yourself?
Of course it doesn't. However your statement was: You implied the Book of Mormon was not about Christ and you are 100% false.

Yes, I have. And It (the book of Mormon) doesn't reads like GOD's Word. It reads like a story with some Bible thrown in for seasoning. The book of Ben Hur is about Christ ----- that doesn't make it scripture... Have you ever read Ben Hur?