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What is Contemplative Christianity?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It sounds great like anything can be faced down, but is that really possible for everyone? In addition to self loathings there are abominable pasts, deep childhood depressions, physical pains, mortal losses, mental problems, loves and other distractions. Maybe some things don't go away when you face them and are just part of who you are, analogous to continuous physical pain. It may not be possible for some people who have been deeply rejected to feel truly accepted. I am not easily convinced that its just a matter of willingness and being forgiven. It sounds good though.
I didn't intend to suggest that they ever go away. They are in fact part of you, which is what the purpose of such confrontations are. That you accept that, rather than reject and suppress them. This does not mean give in to them, the power of the fear, but rather you remove the power of fear you empower them with that they control you, to which you expend so much of your energies doing battle with them trying to keep them under lock and key. "Overcoming them", simply means removing the deep fear of them that holds power over you. You release the power of that fear through acceptance of yourself, in all you hurts, pains, shames, guilts, and so forth. They are part of you, but they are not the fearsome and loathsome beasts we see them as. They are your hurt and injured self that seeks acceptance. When you learn to let go of that fear of the hurt, you embrace that part of you you locked away, and bring it forward to serve the good. I hope that makes some sense to you.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Actually, it is about "emptying the mind," or, more specifically, "sitting in silence and listening for God."
I think emptying the mind is dangerous and an open invitation for any malevolent spiritual entity to enter in and influence or control one's thoughts. The scriptures never instruct anyone to empty their mind, but rather to meditate, consider, and think upon the revealed written words of God.
 
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psychoslice

Veteran Member
I think anyone who is obsessed with the bible, or who cannot see past the words have it all wrong, they have no idea of what the words point to, and spend all their life arguing over what is right and what is wrong in scripture, just a wast of life to me.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I think anyone who is obsessed with the bible, or who cannot see past the words have it all wrong, they have no idea of what the words point to, and spend all their life arguing over what is right and what is wrong in scripture, just a wast of life to me.
I think God's words in the scriptures are well worth the time as they give light and point to eternity...
Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. Psalm 119:105
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I think God's words in the scriptures are well worth the time as they give light and point to eternity...
Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. Psalm 119:105
All you do is repeat what you have read, you have no substance, no inner being, your words are dead.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I didn't intend to suggest that they ever go away. They are in fact part of you, which is what the purpose of such confrontations are. That you accept that, rather than reject and suppress them. This does not mean give in to them, the power of the fear, but rather you remove the power of fear you empower them with that they control you, to which you expend so much of your energies doing battle with them trying to keep them under lock and key. "Overcoming them", simply means removing the deep fear of them that holds power over you. You release the power of that fear through acceptance of yourself, in all you hurts, pains, shames, guilts, and so forth. They are part of you, but they are not the fearsome and loathsome beasts we see them as. They are your hurt and injured self that seeks acceptance. When you learn to let go of that fear of the hurt, you embrace that part of you you locked away, and bring it forward to serve the good. I hope that makes some sense to you.

I'm wondering, what is contemplative Christianity? More specifically, what does it consist of: prayer? talking to yourself? thinking about events in your life? not thinking?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think emptying the mind is dangerous and an open invitation for any malevolent spiritual entity to enter in and influence or control one's thoughts.
Based on what? I'm waiting for someone to show any scripture that says this could happen. Besides, as I said elsewhere, no practitioner of meditation understands "emptying the mind" to mean becoming a complete blank where you become like a zombie. :) I posted this earlier that what you are "emptying" is the distracting chattering of internal thoughts that constantly swirl about ineffectively inside your head, cluttering and clouding the mind from being aware of reality because of the distraction. You still the constant stream of thoughts, you empty yourself of all that excess and unnecessary noise. That is all that is going on. And the result of this is not going "blank", but in reality you become more aware, more attentive, more present, more conscious, and so forth. The exact 100,000% opposite of going blank. You become much more consciously aware than when you constantly unaware because of not being able to pay attention due to the constant barrage of noise going on in our heads.

It astounds me that the fear that people express about something they clearly have no good information about. Let me give you another term than emptying the mind. Quieting the mind. Do you believe quieting the mind, sitting still silently besides a creek and listening to the world around you opens you to Satan? :) Or does it open you to God?

The scriptures never instruct anyone to empty their mind, but rather to meditate, consider, and think upon the revealed written words of God.
Meditation is quieting the mind in order to truly listen to Spirit. If you are only trying to understand God with your reasoning mind, then you are not following scripture, as true worship is in Spirit and in Truth, both of which are beyond the reasoning mind. The actual reality of what happens when you quiet the mind this way is you become actually able to see what is being said in scripture. Prior to that illumination, you are only using your own thoughts and ideas about God to attempt to penetrate Spirit.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm wondering, what is contemplative Christianity? More specifically, what does it consist of: prayer? talking to yourself? thinking about events in your life? not thinking?
@well named gives a good explanation of the history of it in this post http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/what-is-contemplative-christianity.178839/page-2#post-4391967 And Vouthon speaks about aspects of the practice in post 7 http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/what-is-contemplative-christianity.178839/#post-4377110

There are of course other techniques that one learns to quiet the chattering mind, but the goal is to become quite in order to listen. We learn to work with the mind, to learn to not get wrapped up in the constant thought stream of thinking about this or that. You learn to simply observe the thought and let it go. You inhabit awareness itself, rather than inhabiting thoughts and ideas. In sitting in awareness, you begin to see and hear and taste and touch what is before you at all times, but obscured from sight due to the debris. It opens you to that which is in you, your own hidden self, and the eternal Spirit which is in you and in the world. You begin to see and know God within.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I think emptying the mind is dangerous and an open invitation for any malevolent spiritual entity to enter in and influence or control one's thoughts. The scriptures never instruct anyone to empty their mind, but rather to meditate, consider, and think upon the revealed written words of God.
Mediation is "emptying the mind," though. And, BTW: any spiritual practice will open one up. That's why all spiritual practices must be undertaken with intention.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I'm wondering, what is contemplative Christianity? More specifically, what does it consist of: prayer? talking to yourself? thinking about events in your life? not thinking?
Contemplation consists of deep focus on one thing. A word. A color. A sound. A feeling. One idea. Deep breathing patterns. The mind is emptied of all thought, in order to focus on that one thing. The practice centers you and brings insight. Contemplation focuses on the inward self, rather than on outward perception. it puts one in touch with the Breath of God -- the Holy Vibration that is the ground and center of who we are.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Contemplation consists of deep focus on one thing. A word. A color. A sound. A feeling. One idea. Deep breathing patterns. The mind is emptied of all thought, in order to focus on that one thing.
I should add that there is another basic technique, one that I use which works better for me, that rather than focusing on a single point to the exclusion of other thoughts, you "defocus" instead. Rather than a brute force of holding a single thought, you relax the mind into an open awareness, and as thoughts naturally arise, you look at them and then let them go without jumping into the thought and engaging in dialog with it; thinking about the parts your going to need to get at the hardware store in order to fix the washing machine, and that sort of active engagement. As the thought arises and calls you to engage in dialog with it, you instead just relax and let it slip away. This is where techniques such as your 'prayer word', come in. As distracting thoughts arise, you repeat the word to pull you back to your intention to quiet the mind, to empty it of distracting thoughts.

You always will have some thought, but it is relatively quiet, silent observation, rather than active engagement in discourse. In that state, awareness increasing by significant magnitudes of order. So this nonsense about opening yourself to a loss of control is utterly, completely misinformed. You are infinitely more aware and more in control of what goes on! :)

I think both techniques are valid, the "closed" single point of focus and the "open" defocused approach where you step back and become the observer. It depends on the day too which technique works better, and I go between the two if for some reason my mind just can't relax on a given day, then I go more into pinpoint focus in order to get a better handle on it. But then I move back to "open" meditation, as that tends to allow you to go much deeper.

The funny thing is about this, is that most people have absolutely no idea what is actually going on in their own minds, until they actually engage in such a practice of looking at it! So, honestly, I think that is the source of all these misgivings. It's scares them to death to actually look in there to see into the processes that are behind all their underlying assumptions about themselves! No one really can describe it to themselves, because they never actually look and are afraid to. We are generally afraid to look within.

And so this "opening yourself to the devil" is a reflection of this fear. When I hear it, I hear those who lack the faith that what they will find will in fact be God! They are already afraid of what lays inside of them and create this monster under the bed for themselves, asking mom or dad to protect them. That's not truly 'salvation' in my opinion. Overcoming the fear, looking under the bed and seeing the monster is our own imagination, the image we put on the blanket under the bed, is when we become truly liberated and can live live "more abundantly", freed from our deep fears, allowing Spirit to live and grow in us rather than holding it back in ourselves through our fears. God invites us to look within and see there is no monster, and He is there, and always has been, closer to us than our own breath.

The practice centers you and brings insight. Contemplation focuses on the inward self, rather than on outward perception. it puts one in touch with the Breath of God -- the Holy Vibration that is the ground and center of who we are.
Absolutely.
 
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You know, that's an interesting response and I happen to agree with it. I always say to anyone practicing meditation that there are two basic guiding principles and those are intention, without expectation. That intention part if the key. It really is what I see as the true exercise of faith. You will through faith remain present, emptying yourself before the divine, open to what light is given to you, and able to withstand whatever darkness from within you encounter. I brought this up earlier in my many responses in this thread that what a meditation practice does it exposures you to all that which is hidden in the dark places within us.

We encounter the demons we have created through self-rejections, self-loathings, shame, guilt, and so forth. These 'demons' are aspects of our own selves we do not wish to acknowledge, and like angry, hurt children lash out at us through that pain. Our own fear of these "monsters" empower them. And what happens when we "open" ourselves, is we will in fact at some points meet the devil, so to speak. This is why I think some utterly freak out and slam the door on the practice, externalizing the whole affair and further dissociation from these aspects of themselves, leading ultimately to deeper and deeper dissociation and ensuing pathologies; religious fanaticism, self-abuse, and other lunatic behaviors, moving into pathological regressions and so forth. And then those who themselves fear what is within themselves, who turn to religious fanaticism to hide away these "devils", will hear of these folks who dabbled with the spiritual in meditation practices, such as New Age, and had a terrifying encounter with their own shadows, then cite them as "experts", and add them to a long list of "demon inspired" practices they fear. It's all based on fear and ignorance.

But as you say "intention", is what really will hold you there, through faith in the divine to "overcome" this fear and to ultimate heal the dissociated self, that 'demon' we made out of our own hidden and repressed selves, and liberate it into the service of Light. This, is healing. This, is standing before that Light and 'giving an account' of all who we are, naked, forgiven, and unashamed before the throne of God. Very, very, very few are willing to face this, but it is exactly that intention that empowers you to stand. You stand before the mirror of the divine to see yourself, accept yourself in the Light of the Knowledge of God, and to truly be Free. That, is salvation. In this life, and all life to come.
 
I am new to this forum and have followed many conversations. I am learning a lot as I go, I do reject your opposition to any negative experiences associated with meditative practices. You are so quick to dismiss their claims over to fear and ignorance. What if those dismissals are actually derived from your own fear and ignorance? What if they are right and you are wrong? Euphoria can be overwhelmingly deceiving, perhaps your own euphoric experiences have blinded you from the truth? What makes your truth any truer than their truth? If there is no absolute truth then who's to say you are right and they are wrong? Maybe they encountered God at the threshold of demonic forces, maybe demonic forces keep you from encountering God, maybe demons have you convinced in the divines presence? Without absolute truth, we are merely speculating and know nothing, but you cannot just dismiss others experiences because it conflicts with your own.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
How would you know that it is truly God or different God?

It's not clear to me why this question couldn't be asked of nearly any practice, or any human experience. For example, beyond the question of prayer, I suppose that a great many evangelical Christians participate in services in which they sing songs of praise, feel moved and uplifted by that experience, and believe that it is an authentic experience of God, and one that makes their belief feel more real and immediate. How do they know that what they are experiencing is "truly" God and not something else? When they read the Bible and feel moved by a particular passage and feel that they understand it, how do they know their understanding is true, and not a deception that has arisen under some demonic influence? When you accept that something like demonic persuasion or influence is real, how do you ever rule it out completely?

I don't think a glib answer should be entirely satisfying, given the premise, whether you are discussing the value of worship in song or meditative practices, but it is a topic that is discussed in great length in Christian writings on meditative traditions. Generally, those discussions center around the idea of "discernment" as a Christian virtue which is cultivated according to the grace of the Holy Spirit. But there are also practical guidelines. For example, within the orthodox monastic tradition, one always has a spiritual elder who you would share your experiences and thoughts with openly so that they may give guidance. Humility and obedience as attitudes and virtues are emphasized, along with participation in the Christian community, following tradition which is itself checked by the authority of the Bible, and all of that structure is there precisely to mitigate the risks of being led astray by one's own whims, ego, or false experiences. Do such practical methods guarantee that one can know that some experience is "truly" God? I would say no, not according to any purely neutral and rational criteria. But I think if you reflect on the question you will find that the answer is the same in discussing your own understanding. There is an element of trust, that if one participates in these practices with prudence, humility, obedience, guided by tradition and a correct understanding (hence the importance of orthodoxy to the Orthodox) that God will by grace give discernment and lead the way.

One final note on terminology: within the broad collection of traditions I mentioned in my previous post, what we are calling "meditation" has almost always been called prayer, including in the excerpts I posted. All of the distinctly Christian practices begin with an understanding that they are engaged in prayer, which is of course a fundamental Christian practice encouraged by scripture. When 4th century desert monasticism began, they were particularly inspired by one passage: "Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you" (1 Thess 5:16-18) I think it would be legitimate to suggest that meditation in Christian practice, historically, is an attempt to take that passage very absolutely. I wonder if part of the suspicion about these practices comes from viewing them under the term "meditation", hearing a connotation of some non-Christian practice. But part of the reason I wanted to spell out the long history of these practices is to make clear that they are very genuinely Christian, and not a modern appropriation of any other religion, although I also think the comparison between traditions is worthwhile. In essence, the development of "contemplative Christianity" is the development of contemplative prayer, which is a deepening reflection on the meaning and value of prayer, which is a practice that is surely essential to Christianity.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am new to this forum and have followed many conversations. I am learning a lot as I go, I do reject your opposition to any negative experiences associated with meditative practices.
You perhaps haven't read all the many places in this thread where I have spoken about what can be negative experiences in meditation. I know full well that you can come face to face with your own demons, and that can be rather disturbing. I have also stated clearly that some people should not practice meditation, such as if they suffer from some pyschiatric disorder, or suffer from clinical depression unless given supervised guidance. I'm very well aware of this and have stated so. So I am not quick to dismiss legitimate concerns from experience.

What I am dismissive of is those who have no experience with it, who don't even understand it is, making up things such as saying you open yourself to demonic possession. That is in fact, ignorance and fear speaking. I have tried to be generous in trying to understand their concerns, but I hear nothing legitimate being offered, such as I have put forth above. That would be a reasonable response. Instead, all I hear is unsupported phobia to something that they do not understand, based on their descriptions of what they think it is. Under those circumstances, I think my insights into why indeed carry merit.

You are so quick to dismiss their claims over to fear and ignorance. What if those dismissals are actually derived from your own fear and ignorance? What if they are right and you are wrong?
I am experienced in the practice. I am coming from a place of knowledge and experience. Are they? I practice this every day of the week. What is their background and qualifications to speak to this negatively? Any?

Euphoria can be overwhelmingly deceiving, perhaps your own euphoric experiences have blinded you from the truth?
It's not euphoria. You may or may not experience intense emotions, but the experience is not about feelings. It's about awareness. It's about clarity of mind and insight.

What makes your truth any truer than their truth?
Actual knowledge and actual experience. That's what makes it truer. I have actual data, actual information, actual experience. Compare that with those who are outright misinformed and have no experience, then yes, my views hold a lot more weight. Most definitely.

If there is no absolute truth then who's to say you are right and they are wrong?
I am saying my opinions have considerably more weight of truth to them. I am not speaking of absolutes, but degrees of knowledge and certainty. I have experience and knowledge. This is not something I just read about somewhere from unnamed persons whose qualifications are not forthcoming when asked who they are and what qualifies them to make such statements. I do not believe all truths are equal in value. I believe being better informed makes you more qualified to have something to say to this. That's pretty clear.

Maybe they encountered God at the threshold of demonic forces, maybe demonic forces keep you from encountering God, maybe demons have you convinced in the divines presence?
Maybe they did encounter some darkness. I agree. That's an actual point of discussion. I fully expect someone will at some point in meditation. I talked about that earlier which you apparently did not see. I can point the posts if you'd like?

As far as demonic forces keeping me from encountering God, that's not a problem. I encounter God all the time. But I also recognize the face of my own shadows, which appear dark and scarey. It is my belief that is what people are experiencing when they have such a negative experience. I also spoke about that at some length as well. Jesus met the devil in the desert, but he "overcame" through faith. Some are not ready for that confrontation. So I understand that when they in turn retreat and then say "don't do it!". They are talking about themselves. Others have passed through that 'test", if you will.

Without absolute truth, we are merely speculating and know nothing, but you cannot just dismiss others experiences because it conflicts with your own.
I most certainly can. Opinions do in fact matter. We are not speaking in absolutes. I understand extreme interpretations of postmodernism, and I reject them.

I think this is an excellent article that says that not all points of view are in fact valid. http://theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
Mediation is "emptying the mind," though. And, BTW: any spiritual practice will open one up. That's why all spiritual practices must be undertaken with intention.
I think it is important to distinguish between various forms of meditation, Eastern style meditation is an emptying of one's mind and it is this which makes one open and susceptible to any malevolent spiritual entity that wants to enter in and influence that person's empty mind. On the other hand, biblical meditation is actively thinking and deliberate contemplation on the words of God and truths about Him in the scriptures. I don't think it matters how much intention a human being has if they are participating in a practice which puts them in a place of vulnerability to spiritual beings who are much more powerful and have evil intentions toward humans.
 
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