What is Contemplative Christianity?

[Windwalker]

Be prepared for the onslaught of biased, fundamentalist, uninformed spam sites.

Oh yes, that's right. A parade of pseudoscientists. Gah! You're right... it'll come, but it will be worth the amusement factor.

 

[Windwalker]

.... actually, any actual source of authority who can demonstrate this claim about demon possession through meditation would be welcome! I asked for sources before, and none were forthcoming. So, let's see who these anti-meditation experts actually are. I'd love looking at their research. I'd love to know their credentials, their background and expertise, etc. That's not too much to ask, is it? We keep hearing how dangerous it is. There should be some credible basis for this we can look at, some source of authority. The Bible doesn't say anything about it negatively. So there must be some credible source out there we may look at.

Will I hear crickets chirping, or..... ?

 

[Brickjectivity]

. ...I agree that Christians who are not in fellowship with (won't put up with) others cannot claim to be living in truth, but that nobody should claim to interpret truth for another.

Hi Brick,

Nice meeting you again.

What is truth to you if nobody should claim or share the truth to other people?

Thanks

We are talking about what the Bible says? That would be easiest, since we have both read it. In particular I direct your attention to John, 1 John 1 and James 1.

Truth is more than any one person contains but which is tabernacled 'Among us' according to John 1. So the key to Truth is to love others and fellowship. That is also the most difficult part of being a Christian.

For John and James our very existence is on a sliding scale, as if without the Logos we are more ghostly than real. Our real is not God's real. For John (gospel writer and letter writer) there is the Logos, which is Truth with a capital T and represents God's Reality, and there is truth with a lower case 't' which represents what appears to us to be real, our reality. Our words are mere analogies of Truth and not the real thing. In John chapter 3 Jesus talks about the nature of his Truth, the light of the Logos which is mentioned in chapter 1. His Truth judges the world, but Jesus tells us not to judge each other. Those who do evil hate the light of Logos. This light of Logos is the 'Verdict' declared by Jesus against the entire world in John chapter 3. It is the stone that you must allow to break you lest you are crushed by it. Those people who are do-gooders enter into God's light, becoming more real and more True.

James 1 says the sons of God are given birth by the word of Truth, by which he refers not to words of men but Logos. I say that for many reasons, but to start because James is insistent that God gives wisdom to all without finding fault. James goes on and on about how people who 'Think themselves wise' people should simply lead by example rather than talking. He considers no one to be wise. James says that we should walk in the light but confess to being sinners. By this he refers not merely to our actions but to our underlying truth lowercase t. He says anyone who doesn't confess to being a sinner makes God into a liar, and by this he refers not merely to actions. If we consider our truth lowercase t to be God's Truth uppercase T, then this is what James would call 'Boasting'. James as an example preaches against boasting even about our plans. Nothing we say is 'Really' true according to him, and he is in sync with his brother John on this. They are both saying that we live with many things that we think are true, and we think ourselves wise but really aren't.

So then what about truth with a little 't' ? What about the importance of preaching? That is truth in speech and in words. It matters but not compared to God's Truth which is more real than our sense of reality. What about doctrines? Love covers a multitude of sins. People think they need to fix doctrinal errors sometimes, so that they can spread Truth with capital 'T' but they can't. In trying to fix other people's doctrinal errors they merely find themselves boasting against God. Such efforts to bring people together under common doctrines are called 'Ecumenical' efforts, and they don't work. They have no power against antichrist.

For John, love is like the Higgs Boson, making us more True or more existent, bringing us into the Light; although its not a light that shines from above but from among us. (That is why I liked what WW was saying about light from within.) Rather than a matter of words Truth is a matter of love. According to the writer John you don't love people, then you're not true and not real, but compared to God every person is a liar and not real. Who can love someone more than God does? Also if you sin, you're not true and not real, but love covers a multitude of sins including doctrinal errors. The key to Truth is love and acceptance that God is true and we are liars, relative to God. The important thing is to fellowship with other believers without judging their understanding, their wealth, their commonsense etc.

 

[Windwalker]

Oh, I did find some of the negative possiblities mentioned in that Wiki article on meditation. But I did mention those myself several times throughout this thread. Demon possession however was not one of those. To validate what I said previously:

Potential adverse effects and limits of meditation[edit]
The following is an official statement from the US government-run National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health:

"Meditation is considered to be safe for healthy people. There have been rare reports that meditation could cause or worsen symptoms in people who have certain psychiatric problems, but this question has not been fully researched. People with physical limitations may not be able to participate in certain meditative practices involving physical movement. Individuals with existing mental or physical health conditions should speak with their health care providers prior to starting a meditative practice and make their meditation instructor aware of their condition."

Adverse effects have been reported, and may, in some cases, be the result of "improper use of meditation".The NIH advises prospective meditators to "ask about the training and experience of the meditation instructor… [they] are considering."[115]

As with any practice, meditation may also be used to avoid facing ongoing problems or emerging crises in the meditator's life. In such situations, it may instead be helpful to apply mindful attitudes acquired in meditation while actively engaging with current problems.[119][120] According to the NIH, meditation should not be used as a replacement for conventional health care or as a reason to postpone seeing a doctor.[115]
​

[Emphasis mine] "Certain psychiatric conditions", which in ancient times were called "demonic possessions", such as schizophrenia. So , if you want to have an actual discussion about rare, possible negative side-effects, like these, that is a realistic discussion. But the overall benefit for the majority of people is overwhelmingly positive.

 

[sojourner]

Thank you for your honesty! But remember we all feel the same way from our own perspectives.

If you feel strongly about it, then, by all means, don't participate in it!

 

[Yoshua]

It is interesting to me reading your responses how that what I explain in clear and articulate detail escapes you. It is what I said at the outset, that where you are at, you are currently incapable of understanding different ways of thinking. Anything that seems 'foreign' to how you see and perceive the world, and how you interpret everything through that perception, that mode of thought, is seen by you are "wrong", a "deception", "of the devil", etc, etc, etc. All of this is a reflection of how you think and perceive, not a reflection of reality as a whole

Hi Windwalker,

What is your perspective of the devil? How do you categorize and define what is the work of the devil and what is the work of God?

With this I agree. However, you seem to believe it is because you keep trying to tell as your thoughts as if they were God's. Remember, YOU interpret scripture, and YOU are speaking your thoughts as they come to you. I don't hear God saying what you say he is. So you should take your advise and not do that anymore.

My thought does not come from my own self-interpretation. The Holy Spirit guides us in all truth. If you can see that I (even) attached the Scripture, and not just go babbling my comment and insights about your belief. It’s so happen that your approach with the Scripture differed with mine including the process of thinking as non-authority of the Word applied in our lives.

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care."

Out of curiosity since you speaking of God in terms of dimensions, do you believe God is outside of creation, within creation, or both?

God is outside of creation?? I believe God is the Creator, He created human and all living things. rt of I didn't get it, can you expound further your question.

Well, you're actually not casting out demons. You're persecuting others who believe differently than you, calling them demons in the same way the Pharisees said Jesus had a demon because his teachings threatened theirs in their eyes. If you were actually taking the injunction to, "drive out demons," you would be doing so by practicing modern psychology, not by being a witch-doctor. Although, as I said before, even witch-doctors have an effect on others through the power of suggestion. It's all means and ways to the subconscious mind.

I'm just suggesting if you truly want to help others who have sickness of the mind or body, then seek a modern education and learn the arts of healing, rather than using this business of "demon-slaying" to "rebuke" those who don't believe like you do. That's not about healing. That's about your ego. That's about being right. That's about self-justification.

Not persecuting, but sharing the truth. It is natural instinct for a person to think that he is persecuted if they engage in something that contradicts his belief. You may ask me a question, and it’s my pleasure to answer. As I said, that experience in slaying is true, and not my power. It is dependency on God’s power as stated in the Word of God. I stick to the Scripture and applied it. Psychology is not a tool to cast them out, they are just hibernating, and no power to expel them. Medically, they fitted with a psychotic person, and mentally disturbed, but not for spiritual battle. They are separated. I know you will disagree with this.

My understanding is different than yours what submission to the will of God means. I know, I know, I'm not believing God because I think differently than you.

Matt.6:9-10
9. After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.

James 4:7
Submit therefore to God Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Luke 22:42
saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

Rom. 13:1
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Well, yes it is forced if you think of God they way you do. It's like putting a gun to someone's head and saying, "You have a freewill choice here to love me and obey me, or to not. I'm not forcing you here, but do understand if I put a bullet in your head it's your choice to die." A boss can fire you from your job. But God is not our employer. He is our "Heavenly Father", "Abba" or "Daddy" as Jesus called Him. That is a love relationship, not an employment contract! I do not see my boss as my father. My father would never disown me. Would yours you?

I find it very revealing, very telling how you see God as 1) Dictator, 2) Employer. I'll continue to point these out as they emerge from what you say in how you envision God. AGAIN, these images of God you hold, that you begin with, taints everything you read in scripture through that lens. It is what you mind is allowing you to, colorizing it to fit within that framework. You simply do not see this yet. To you, your mind reflects reality itself. But "God's thoughts are higher than you own". I suggest you maybe do what we do, and set aside what we "think" about God and let God speak.

Like a drip of water on a hard stone, eventually the repetition wears a groove in it.

My God also does not disown me. He loved me by sending His Son Jesus to save me from the bondage of sin. Love is not letting you do your own thinking. The love of God is un-conditional, God is waiting people to believe, to obey, to commit, to repent, to trust, to submit, to worship, and to love Him even though we are unlovable because of our tainted sin.
John 3:16
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I don’t think that God is not saying to submit to His authority (as Scripture above stated). As Father to his kid, the Father love his son, even at times when he disobeyed, and shouted at him. But when the son rebel, and moved away from his father. The Father still loved his son. So the Father would just wait for his son to come back to him.(Prodigal Son) Therefore, if a person don’t submit to God’s will, he choose his own path of righteousness that is not from the Father.

And once again, the Strawman argument comes out. No one in this discussion believes or teaches that contemplative practice is us trying to do this through our own power of the mind. It is the exact opposite of what lies you continue to make us to be saying and engaging in. In lieu of an actual argument, make one up and argue with that! Does this unbiblical practice ever end with you?

What you are saying is bearing false witness against us. I've pointed this out before, but you continue to persist in this. This is a lie. We have addressed it countless times, you ignore what is said the truth of it is, and continue to say what it is not to us. I don't see resorting to lies to doing the work of God, do you? Since you are a fan of demonology, who is the Father of Lies in that hierarchy, and whose lead are you following? Be careful in your casting stones at others... "for with what judgement you judge, it will be meeted back to you".

Now, address what we actually say, and actually practice, rather than continuing to state falsehoods like this. The fact you are not arguing with us, show it is not us you oppose, but an imagined enemy of your own mind, your own demon, as it were. It's not us. End of story.

I'll leave it at this, as it's all just repeating the same things.....

Am I not allowed to share my experiences, and my thoughts? You can freely share your thoughts and your experience in your spiritual walk before. I just being creative to explain the similarity that I’ve encountered. You may cite any encounters that you think evangelical Christianity was false rather than bursting you to anger. Give an example and I’m open to everyone here in RF to share their thoughts.

Allow me to explain first: I said this statement “This is the same as you describe as finding the truth in ourselves, seeking what your mind can achieve, and what is around you has to offer” because the dependency is within ourselves (as dependency in our mind-self). As you have said we should find the truth in ourselves. What compose of “ourselves”? It is oneself. Isn’t it?

Jesus said in Matt. 6:33, But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. We seek His kingdom, and not ourselves. Who will add to ourselves, it is God and not us. All things that owned by our Creator God will supply all our needs. So “finding truth in ourselves” seems opposite with the will of God for ourselves.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

The mind and intellect can't interpret scriptures, the spirit does. Mind becomes covered and veiled by Spirit.
One cannot meditate on something they think that they know. The idea is a still, open, and clear mind, and forget everything that we think we know. If the answers eventually brought into the conscious mind through thoughts, after patience, are conflicting with what you already believe in, or are not what you want to hear, they will likely be ignored. Hence, not listening to Jesus. Requires full submission and denial of your wife(subconscious) by covering of the Spirit.

Hi Unification,

Thanks for joining this thread. Exactly nearing on what you have said, I received and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour as the Holy Spirit is my guide. I fully trusted Jesus and the Holy Spirit as my counselor.

People tend to look Christianity as low standard, no quality, and avoidance of God's written word. They would like to hear what they want to hear based on the flesh desires by seeking a different Jesus other than the Jesus who we know as the Saviour of our Soul.

If I said Jesus say this things, then posted a Scripture to support it, Is this a good and valid evidence that I'm not lying and not just my own words? It's not.

Same with investigation, someone said that warehouse will be burned in 15 minutes, you may not easily believe that person is saying--if it is true or not. Isn't it? Now if he showed to you the timebomb that switched in 15 minutes in your very eyes, probably you may believe it that it will happen. This only shows people are not putting their faith in God rather they place themselves through their experience.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I'm certainly not engaging in any Spiritual battle. maybe you're fighting against your nature, but as I see it, I fully embrace myself as the beautiful, whole, and good human being God made me to be, so there's no need to "do battle."

This is not my own words, the Scripture said :
Eph. 6:11-12
11. Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Paul is not fighting against nature, same with me. We are both aware with what is happening.

Obviously you don't know what the interpretive process is.

Can you please show me how is the interpretation process? I'm asking this before. Please give an example.

Great! Do that, if that's what you're comfortable with. But don't go braying on about how what I'm doing is "wrong" or "dangerous" or "New Age" or "Satanic" when you don't understand the process.

How will I know? I keeping asking you about this. What I got from you is a very short sentence without explanation. Now it is clear.

IOW, your'e "reading," not "meditating."

Hmmm.
Rom. 10:17
17. So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Joshua 1:8
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

The word for "but you shall medtate" is hagah, to speak and utter.
hagah: to moan, growl, utter, speak, muse
Original Word: הָגָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagah
Phonetic Spelling: (daw-gaw')
Short Definition: meditate

This is how we meditate and we have the basis as just following what the Scripture says.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Data and facts on its way to counter fearful ignorance:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/feeling-it/201309/20-scientific-reasons-start-meditating-today

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/meditation-heals-body-and-mind

https://www.headspace.com/science

http://www.medicaldaily.com/mental-...er-your-brains-grey-matter-and-improve-319298

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...duces-stress-it-literally-changes-your-brain/

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...a-scientists-find-proof-of-meditation-benefit


Ok, where is the study that show demon possession is a side effect of meditation?????? Come on, where is it? None? Ok. None.

Now, again, there should be hundreds of thousands of really messed up people with heads spinning around in circles, or offering goat sacrifices to their dark lord Satan or something with all this meditation going on. But instead, you see, scientifically verified reductions in stress, better relationships, more creativity, greater empathy and compassion, and all those wonderful fruits of the spirit the Bible lists! Wow. I think one answer only can suffice to explain why people ignore overwhelming evidence, and the words of those members here who themselves practice this. FEAR. Just plain, simple ignorant FEAR.

The word "Meditation" is a general term and wide enough to touch every religious group/faiths. Kindly be specific to show to the reader how do you meditate step by step. Is it the Centering Prayer, Breathe Prayer, posturing like a yogi etc.....? How do you meditate so we can comment on your posted medical, psychological and news proof.

Thanks

 

[Unification]

Hi Unification,

Thanks for joining this thread. Exactly nearing on what you have said, I received and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour as the Holy Spirit is my guide. I fully trusted Jesus and the Holy Spirit as my counselor.

People tend to look Christianity as low standard, no quality, and avoidance of God's written word. They would like to hear what they want to hear based on the flesh desires by seeking a different Jesus other than the Jesus who we know as the Saviour of our Soul.

If I said Jesus say this things, then posted a Scripture to support it, Is this a good and valid evidence that I'm not lying and not just my own words? It's not.

Same with investigation, someone said that warehouse will be burned in 15 minutes, you may not easily believe that person is saying--if it is true or not. Isn't it? Now if he showed to you the timebomb that switched in 15 minutes in your very eyes, probably you may believe it that it will happen. This only shows people are not putting their faith in God rather they place themselves through their experience.

Thanks

Thank you for the response.

Perhaps Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Perhaps the coming of the Christ happens within, the mind of God became the mind of man by overcoming and defeating the ego in experience and denying oneself. What sacrifice was made? What did Jesus actually sacrifice? Mainstream says virtually nothing.

People do tend to look at Christianity as such due to anti-Christ "Christians." Professing the faith, outwardly but not bearing the fruits and walking like Jesus did and being inward. Not forgiving, in constant judgement of others, accepting money as if it's a career, job, and industry, not completely dying to oneself, listening to man, theology, doctrine and dogma. Doing many things contrary to "God" and in vain. So many divisions. Literal woman below man, etc. Trying to convert people through all of this, and not much conversion inwardly. Most put their faith in themselves and others. Being fed by men. Most become stagnant and lack inner growth. One goes against the better judgement in their minds to follow a literal instruction manual. They make it easy for themselves to be picked on and ripped apart by myth believing, rather than seeing the spirit beneath the myths. Doing whatever it took to justify such. That's sad, because many have been converted to some extent inwardly, they just don't realize that conversion and reality is all of what the scriptures are saying, it's all allegory and parable for what every individual has faced in their lives and everything that every individual has in common, everything inner and within.

Nothing comes with words, but with power. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. The first step honestly is to overcome the conditioning that the bible is infallible and that the bible is the word of "God." It has become a harmful idol. A book that is a dead object. And if those words are all written by Spirit, the mind won't interpret them correctly, hence, all of the divide. The Spirit can train in all things, and having a Christ conscious, and magnified awareness, one can naturally and easily decipher truth from lies. The word of "God" is not the letter. The word of "God" is the "thoughts and mind of "God" and that's significantly different than how natural man thinks, which is outward, and about their fleshly lives. Literal marriage, literal everything. Here's one example, any woman below man is not what's written on my heart and mind, but it's written in a book. I can choose to seek a spiritual, inner meaning or I can go by the book and exhaust some kind of authority over a woman because an instruction manual says so and I can feed my pride and ego. Before even reading a book or knowing anything about a bible, I knew literal adultery wasn't wise. It was already written on my heart and mind. Would I really feel or think that the mind and thoughts of God would need to tell me this literally through a manual? Another example, the spirit within me tells me that all individuals are equal and "God" is not a respector of persons. It's written on my mind and heart, but then I read something in text about homosexuality and it causes me to judge and think their rights are below mine. Again, the letter kills. Many have done a fabulous job of spreading lies, inequality, hate, and judgement, and being their own worst enemy. The list is endless. All in the name of "God." Lukewarm "Christians." Neither cold nor hot, hypocrites claiming "Christ" but not acting like it internally. Truly, the texts also say that "God" would rather have someone be a full blown sinner than claim "God" and not behave as such and spread all sorts of outward lies and proselyte more hell children through conditioning and doctrination.

The wilderness is experience and experience is transformation. Experience and internal transformation are a Christ-like inward cross testimony. Not words, not citing bible verses, but living in such a loving, tranquil, merciful, compassionate, and peaceful manner.

 

[Yoshua]

Again, by coming to know the Jesus at your sacred center.

Hi Sojourner,
Is the sacred center means the church?

No, it serves as a source of the Tradition, but it is only understood through a subjective lens. Therefore, it is a truth -- not the truth.

Then what is objective to you? if the Bible is the source of tradition, then all what is written there is to be followed.

Nobody's hindering anything. Contemplation is about enabling. Contemplation fosters a deeper understanding of the Word. Therefore, I conclude that you simply don't know what you're arguing here.

Then, you may explain how to get deeper understanding of the Word. How?

Thanks

 

[sassysam29]

Thank you for the response.

Perhaps Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Perhaps the coming of the Christ happens within, the mind of God became the mind of man by overcoming and defeating the ego in experience and denying oneself. What sacrifice was made? What did Jesus actually sacrifice? Mainstream says virtually nothing.

People do tend to look at Christianity as such due to anti-Christ "Christians." Professing the faith, outwardly but not bearing the fruits and walking like Jesus did and being inward. Not forgiving, in constant judgement of others, accepting money as if it's a career, job, and industry, not completely dying to oneself, listening to man, theology, doctrine and dogma. Doing many things contrary to "God" and in vain. So many divisions. Literal woman below man, etc. Trying to convert people through all of this, and not much conversion inwardly. Most put their faith in themselves and others. Being fed by men. Most become stagnant and lack inner growth. One goes against the better judgement in their minds to follow a literal instruction manual. They make it easy for themselves to be picked on and ripped apart by myth believing, rather than seeing the spirit beneath the myths. Doing whatever it took to justify such. That's sad, because many have been converted to some extent inwardly, they just don't realize that conversion and reality is all of what the scriptures are saying, it's all allegory and parable for what every individual has faced in their lives and everything that every individual has in common, everything inner and within.

Nothing comes with words, but with power. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. The first step honestly is to overcome the conditioning that the bible is infallible and that the bible is the word of "God." It has become a harmful idol. A book that is a dead object. And if those words are all written by Spirit, the mind won't interpret them correctly, hence, all of the divide. The Spirit can train in all things, and having a Christ conscious, and magnified awareness, one can naturally and easily decipher truth from lies. The word of "God" is not the letter. The word of "God" is the "thoughts and mind of "God" and that's significantly different than how natural man thinks, which is outward, and about their fleshly lives. Literal marriage, literal everything. Here's one example, any woman below man is not what's written on my heart and mind, but it's written in a book. I can choose to seek a spiritual, inner meaning or I can go by the book and exhaust some kind of authority over a woman because an instruction manual says so and I can feed my pride and ego. Before even reading a book or knowing anything about a bible, I knew literal adultery wasn't wise. It was already written on my heart and mind. Would I really feel or think that the mind and thoughts of God would need to tell me this literally through a manual? Another example, the spirit within me tells me that all individuals are equal and "God" is not a respector of persons. It's written on my mind and heart, but then I read something in text about homosexuality and it causes me to judge and think their rights are below mine. Again, the letter kills. Many have done a fabulous job of spreading lies, inequality, hate, and judgement, and being their own worst enemy. The list is endless. All in the name of "God." Lukewarm "Christians." Neither cold nor hot, hypocrites claiming "Christ" but not acting like it internally. Truly, the texts also say that "God" would rather have someone be a full blown sinner than claim "God" and not behave as such and spread all sorts of outward lies and proselyte more hell children through conditioning and doctrination.

The wilderness is experience and experience is transformation. Experience and internal transformation are a Christ-like inward cross testimony. Not words, not citing bible verses, but living in such a loving, tranquil, merciful, compassionate, and peaceful manner.

There's SO much I agree with you/others about. I do believe 100 percent that the number one cause of people rejecting Christ is misrepresentation of His character. People "fleshing" out the scriptures. Anything we say/do outside of the gentleness of the Holy Spirit will fail miserably. I DO believe that our individual experiences are important....it's our story....our moment of truth, seeing the savior without the blinders of "flesh" so to speak. Where the difference lies between us is scripture. Because the majority of what we see in evangelical/fundies (I hate generalizations, and I'm making one to show my point), is flesh driven (with good intent no doubt), but it is lifeless and rigid because there is no power in our flesh driven attempts to "be godly". My struggle is not acknowledging the obvious problems that you see in certain camps, my problem is arriving at the conclusion that the bible and it's authority is the problem. I just don't see it that way. It's like throwing out the message because the messengers are flawed. God doesn't require me to choose one over the other. It certainly feels that way sometimes because, there is a strong desire to disassociate from anything that is not an adequate representation of your own personal faith. I hate standing under the same umbrella with people that use the sword of God's word to cut people apart and bring shame to His name. His word is precious to me and it brings comfort, correction, encouragement, guidance, and yes....truth to my life. MY LIFE. It cuts MY flesh, It molds MY character, not in some rigid exterior way that begins each day with a "to do" and "not to do" list, but with a daily surrendered will that says "I love You"..... sometimes I can get nothing else right, but "I love you".
I just cannot separate my daily walk from the words of that book....the Holy Spirits presence is just too powerful to walk away from what I feel is God's divine message to us in written form.

 

[Windwalker]

Love is not letting you do your own thinking. The love of God is un-conditional, God is waiting people to believe, to obey, to commit, to repent, to trust, to submit, to worship, and to love Him even though we are unlovable because of our tainted sin.
John 3:16
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I have to draw special attention to this comment above. This is singularity, without a doubt, the most revealing insight into how some fundamentalists believe what Love is. I am so astounded at the open admission of this sort of dictatorial control over others' minds that is extolled as holy and righteous and good, that I am practically speechless. "Love is not letting you do your own thinking". I'm normally quite fluent and articulate in my thoughts, but I'm at a loss for words to add anything to this. Amazing.

Are you married? How does your wife like this idea of yours? In most marriages the person who thinks like this towards their spouse are call "control freaks". So you view God as Control Freak. As well as a Dictator. As well as Employment Boss. There seems much here to see, and it kind of hurts my eyes. All the rest falls neatly into place (casting out devils = whipping with belts, etc). It's very sad and tragic, actually. It makes me feel somewhat ill. Deifying patterns of abuse.

The words from the Bible are the same. The meanings to you are quite different than what they are to me, or many, many others. I would never associate John 3:16 with "Love is not letting you do you own thinking," but you do.

 

[sojourner]

People tend to look Christianity as low standard, no quality, and avoidance of God's written word.

I don't remember any of us EVER saying here that Xy has a low standard, that it is of no quality, nor have we said that we avoid the written word. What we have said is that we had the Christian principles close to our hearts, and that we find Christ deeply within us, and that we take the texts for what they are -- not for what we wish they were. But this is typical of the kind of non-listening -- or non-understanding -- that you have typically displayed in your posts here.

They would like to hear what they want to hear based on the flesh desires by seeking a different Jesus other than the Jesus who we know as the Saviour of our Soul.

No one here has ever said that, either. What we have said is that we quiet our minds to listen for God to speak to our hearts, that we seek to "get out of our own way" to make room for God within us, and that that inner experience is where we encounter Jesus most deeply.

If I said Jesus say this things, then posted a Scripture to support it, Is this a good and valid evidence that I'm not lying and not just my own words?

It's good and valid evidence that you're reading a lot into the texts by reading through your own filter of bias and limited understanding. It's evidence that your interpretation of what you read is clearly your perspective.

This only shows people are not putting their faith in God rather they place themselves through their experience.

Everyone -- EVERYONE -- encounters God through their own experience. Even by simply "reading the bible," one doesn't receive a pure and objective experience of God. We can only encounter God through the lens of our individual experience, because there is no external evidence for God. Can't see God, can't touch God, can't smell God, can't measure God in any way, can't observe concrete ways in which God affects other things, because God is immaterial. You seem to think that "reading the bible" somehow "puts skin and bones" on God objectively. It doesn't, as Windwalker and I have tried unsuccessfully to explain to you time and again.

 

[Yoshua]

Nothing comes with words, but with power. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. The first step honestly is to overcome the conditioning that the bible is infallible and that the bible is the word of "God." It has become a harmful idol. A book that is a dead object.

Hi Unification,

Ministers of a New Covenant
1. Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you?
2. You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3. being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.
4. And such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6. who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8. how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

I posted these Scriptures to show to the readers that I'm not just babbling my message without understanding the context. I believed this is not in favor with the contemplative teachings followers. Yes, the quote of "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" is a very nice to hear because this is emphasizing the Holy Spirit who is the "Spirit of Truth." As we ponder and look at the Scriptures, this is projecting and comparing with the Old Testament law (letters- Moses) and the New Testament (Spirit-Christ). For the letter (law) consist of laws about moral, ceremonial, civil... that a man should followed while the Spirit (Gospel) penetrates our heart & soul and bring us to the grace of God; a faith that saves. This is the covenant of grace composed of Jesus Christ's teaching.

Paul said in Rom. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. Jesus is looking at the heart of man rather than our works. I believed He is waiting people to come to Him by believing, accepting, obeying, repenting, trust, surrendering our life, submission, and commitment to Him. The Spirit gives life because He guides and convicts a believer to walk in the path of righteousness.

Role of the Spirit
John 14:16-17
16. "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17. that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you.

Therefore, Paul letters' and Jesus teachings' are infallible; if they are not infallible and the absolute Word of God, mentioning "but of the Spirit; for the letter kills,but the Spirit gives life" is futile and not worthy. We will just based on our own instinct, and by own interpretation without a basis. Paul and Jesus' word will become meaningless.

And if those words are all written by Spirit, the mind won't interpret them correctly, hence, all of the divide. The Spirit can train in all things, and having a Christ conscious, and magnified awareness, one can naturally and easily decipher truth from lies. The word of "God" is not the letter. The word of "God" is the "thoughts and mind of "God" and that's significantly different than how natural man thinks, which is outward, and about their fleshly lives.

2 Tim. 3:16-17
16. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17. that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Heb. 4:12
12. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

The Word of God is infallible because it is said so as inspired by God.
1 Peter 1:25
25. But the word of the Lord abides forever." And this is the word which was preached to you.

1 Thess. 2:13
13. And for this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God's message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

Thanks

 

[Windwalker]

Where the difference lies between us is scripture. Because the majority of what we see in evangelical/fundies (I hate generalizations, and I'm making one to show my point), is flesh driven (with good intent no doubt), but it is lifeless and rigid because there is no power in our flesh driven attempts to "be godly". My struggle is not acknowledging the obvious problems that you see in certain camps, my problem is arriving at the conclusion that the bible and it's authority is the problem.

I know this was not a response to me but I'd like to jump in here as it underscores what I've said before. As I said, I don't think you're too far different in most key areas than I am, or how others who see the importance of a contemplative practice think. No one, myself included are saying scripture is not valuable or helpful to ones path. The only thing I am emphasizing is to call it an Absolute Authority, in the sense that what you read from the pages, how your read it from the pages to be more accurate about it, takes precedence over all other modes of knowing or questioning. I think if I can articulate this a little better it may help you understand what I'm really talking about....

I just don't see it that way. It's like throwing out the message because the messengers are flawed. God doesn't require me to choose one over the other. It certainly feels that way sometimes because, there is a strong desire to disassociate from anything that is not an adequate representation of your own personal faith.

This is something I say of the modern neo-atheist, whose ranks are comprised of many former Christians. I personally see a great deal of good coming from them, breaking these chains of dogmatic, authoritarian legalism and anti-science, and anti-intellectualism rampant within the Christian faith in many sectors, particularly fundamentalism. But I also see some loss in the jettisoning of the bathwater of religion in a modern context, that it throws out the Baby of spirituality. I could go at great length on this.

So to your point, I don't think that those, like me, who call this same Authoritarian approach to faith (and that is what we are talking about in reality), has to result in saying we should not regard, respect, or otherwise pay attention to what is in the Bible. It's not one extreme of the other in some mad pendulum swing. But I often here this response that "If you don't believe this, then you think it's worthless". No, that is putting words into my mouth. It's the same thing as saying, "If you're not for me, you're against me". Those are not the only two options.

I hate standing under the same umbrella with people that use the sword of God's word to cut people apart and bring shame to His name. His word is precious to me and it brings comfort, correction, encouragement, guidance, and yes....truth to my life. MY LIFE. It cuts MY flesh, It molds MY character, not in some rigid exterior way that begins each day with a "to do" and "not to do" list, but with a daily surrendered will that says "I love You"..... sometimes I can get nothing else right, but "I love you".

Hey, nothing wrong with this! I agree with it.

I just cannot separate my daily walk from the words of that book....the Holy Spirits presence is just too powerful to walk away from what I feel is God's divine message to us in written form.

The words of the Bible constantly trickle to my mind, and particularly so through opening myself through meditation practice. I just see them in a very different, more brilliant light the deeper I go. They always change and deepen in richness and color this way, as opposed to being flat facts on a page you "must believe in", force-fitting your mind into them. The former is Life, the latter is death.

 

[sassysam29]

I know this was not a response to me but I'd like to jump in here as it underscores what I've said before. As I said, I don't think you're too far different in most key areas than I am, or how others who see the importance of a contemplative practice think. No one, myself included are saying scripture is not valuable or helpful to ones path. The only thing I am emphasizing is to call it an Absolute Authority, in the sense that what you read from the pages, how your read it from the pages to be more accurate about it, takes precedence over all other modes of knowing or questioning. I think if I can articulate this a little better it may help you understand what I'm really talking about....


This is something I say of the modern neo-atheist, whose ranks are comprised of many former Christians. I personally see a great deal of good coming from them, breaking these chains of dogmatic, authoritarian legalism and anti-science, and anti-intellectualism rampant within the Christian faith in many sectors, particularly fundamentalism. But I also see some loss in the jettisoning of the bathwater of religion in a modern context, that it throws out the Baby of spirituality. I could go at great length on this.

So to your point, I don't think that those, like me, who call this same Authoritarian approach to faith (and that is what we are talking about in reality), has to result in saying we should not regard, respect, or otherwise pay attention to what is in the Bible. It's not one extreme of the other in some mad pendulum swing. But I often here this response that "If you don't believe this, then you think it's worthless". No, that is putting words into my mouth. It's the same thing as saying, "If you're not for me, you're against me". Those are not the only two options.


Hey, nothing wrong with this! I agree with it.


The words of the Bible constantly trickle to my mind, and particularly so through opening myself through meditation practice. I just see them in a very different, more brilliant light the deeper I go. They always change and deepen in richness and color this way, as opposed to being flat facts on a page you "must believe in", force-fitting your mind into them. The former is Life, the latter is death.

Both are death outside of the Holy Spirit.

 

[sojourner]

This is not my own words, the Scripture said :
Eph. 6:11-12
11. Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Paul is not fighting against nature, same with me. We are both aware with what is happening.

the trick isn't simply "reading what Paul said." The trick is actually exegeting the text. Case in point: first, you think Paul wrote Ephesians, and that it's Paul's words you're reading. Even though I've explained that most reputable and peer-reviewed scholars have mined the evidence and it shows that he most likely didn't write Ephesians. So, right off the bat, you're beginning to read your own biases into the text.

Second, you have to do some literary and cultural criticism in order to discover that the writer is using a metaphor here. What does the writer mean by the terms, "powers," "darkness," and "spiritual forces?" What is his world view? What is his take on spirituality? It's obviously not the same as yours. What does he mean by "full armor of God?" Why does he use these metaphors? What's he trying to get across?

Third, what's the context in which he's writing? He's not writing to you; he's writing to a group of ancient Greeks. What is the situation in that place that's prompted him to write what he wrote? And how is that particular circumstance cogent to our own?

You, OTOH, appear to be simply picking up a bible and reading the words on the page, as if "Paul" is speaking directly and plainly to you. And that just doesn't cut it, because, to do that means that it is, in fact, "[your] own words," in the sense that you have read them through your filter and have put your spin of meaning to them.

Can you please show me how is the interpretation process? I'm asking this before. Please give an example.

See just above ^^^. That's a great place to begin. exegesis is the beginning of interpretation, and if you don't have that process down first, you don't have a solid basis to formulate an interpretation of what you've read, because you don't really have a good idea of what you've read until you do that!

How will I know? I keeping asking you about this. What I got from you is a very short sentence without explanation. Now it is clear.

How will you know what? Do you mean, "How will I know about meditation?" We've told you and told you and told you -- and you keep throwing up bible verses that aren't germane to what we've said.

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

One doesn't hear through the eyes, by reading words on a page. One hears by becoming quiet and listening.

This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

The word for "but you shall medtate" is hagah, to speak and utter.
hagah: to moan, growl, utter, speak, muse
Original Word: הָגָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagah
Phonetic Spelling: (daw-gaw')
Short Definition: meditate

This is how we meditate and we have the basis as just following what the Scripture says.

This is why amateurs shouldn't dabble in exegesis. You do a simple Strong's search on a foreign word of a language you don't understand, and think you know everything you need to know to make an informed decision. Every foreign word has, not only a definition, but sometimes several. And the definition changes as context changes. When Strong's defines hagah as "moan, growl, utter, speak, and muse, the word is an onomatopoeia -- IOW, it's a poetic word like "bang!" or "Crash!" The pronunciation sounds like what the word is describing. In meditation, sometimes one speaks a vowel sound, one mumbles a mantra over and over, as a means to help clear the mind and focus on what one wishes to focus on. That's what's going on here! The Law if muttered as a mantra, over and over. We can see this practice in modern-day Judaism. Prayerful Jews will stand and rock back and forth, muttering phrases in prayer. It's meditation -- not "reading the text." All you've managed to do here is to prove my point.

 

[sojourner]

The word "Meditation" is a general term and wide enough to touch every religious group/faiths. Kindly be specific to show to the reader how do you meditate step by step. Is it the Centering Prayer, Breathe Prayer, posturing like a yogi etc.....? How do you meditate so we can comment on your posted medical, psychological and news proof.

Thanks

The tools don't matter, and that's what you're commenting on here with "centering," "breath," "posturing." The tools don't matter. The intention matters.

 

[Yoshua]

I have to draw special attention to this comment above. This is singularity, without a doubt, the most revealing insight into how some fundamentalists believe what Love is. I am so astounded at the open admission of this sort of dictatorial control over others' minds that is extolled as holy and righteous and good, that I am practically speechless. "Love is not letting you do your own thinking". I'm normally quite fluent and articulate in my thoughts, but I'm at a loss for words to add anything to this. Amazing.

Are you married? How does your wife like this idea of yours? In most marriages the person who thinks like this towards their spouse are call "control freaks". So you view God as Control Freak. As well as a Dictator. As well as Employment Boss. There seems much here to see, and it kind of hurts my eyes. All the rest falls neatly into place (casting out devils = whipping with belts, etc). It's very sad and tragic, actually. It makes me feel somewhat ill. Deifying patterns of abuse.

The words from the Bible are the same. The meanings to you are quite different than what they are to me, or many, many others. I would never associate John 3:16 with "Love is not letting you do you own thinking," but you do.

Hi Windwalker,

Allow me explain to you what a Christian (a follower of Christ) defined Love. The love that we do (as usually seen by the people) is the outworking of the Holy Spirit. It is the love coming from God. Remember the fruit of the Holy Spirit,
Gal. 5:22-23
22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23. gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Regarding the statement that I said "it is not from our own thinking", that would mean the love of God automatically/built-in (allow me to use this layman's word) to a believer once he accepted (having a personal relationship with Christ) Jesus Christ as His Lord and Saviour. Anybody can express their love, even to those who have different faiths. Hope you remember what we have discuss about the fruit of the Spirit before.

As a believer in Christ, that Spirit produces love..... that love came from the love of God. It is not by our own effort anymore because that love is the fruit of the Spirit. There is a difference between a non-follower and follower of Christ.

God does not control nor a dictator. He is calling us to come to Him by surrendering our will to Him; not by our might we should depend, but by the might of God--we should be dependent. The Spirit of Truth is the one who will guide us; we don't need to push ourselves seeking that Spirit by our own effort because this is a promise by God.
Eph. 1:13-14
13. In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14. which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glor

Demolishing strongholds is not my own power & thinking, it is coming from the power of the name of Jesus Christ.

Thanks