What if the religious right really did hate Gays and Lesbians?

[Jaymes]

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think people have the right to make legislation that discriminates against me.

 

[gnomon]

Hate is often a strawman. It's also useful to invoke hatred rather than look deeper into why some people might harbor a certain opinion. In the case of gay marriage, there is a small amount of rhetoric where the term hate is levelled against religious individuals who oppose gay marriage. It's entirely unproductive.

And besides, I think lilithu already addressed this well.

What I want to know is why do so many people believe that opposition to gay marriage only seems to be a religious issue. How many cultures in this world and throughout history recognized homosexual unions with the same respect they do heterosexual unions. I think this argument needs to move beyond the religious right, a minority voice, and address a larger psychological issue.

But it sure is easy to just use words like hate and evil. Especially when they have no useful value in the debate at all.

 

[FatMan]

Is it?
I am not so sure that the term 'hate' is being misused.
I suspect that there are those who simply do not like the term 'hate' and would rather not see it being used.

Sure the term is being misused. Just as there would be a firestorm if people painted all gays with a broad stroke, people on this thread are trying to paint all members who oppose gay marriage as hateful and spiteful people.

Personally, I don't oppose gay marriage, but I have heard people oppose it in arguments devoid of hate.

 

[McBell]

I don't like it because it's so far off from how I am in real life. I'm not one to shy away from words, simply because I don't like it.

And I have no doubts that there are a lot of people against same sex marriage that are in the same boat.

However, there just so happens to be plenty who not only hate, not only are proud of said hate, but even advertise it.

The Westboro Baptist Church Is likley the most popular at the moment.
So how does this work exactly?

 

[gnomon]

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think people have the right to make legislation that discriminates against me.

Hopefully none of us will disagree with that.

 

[Quiddity]

And I have no doubts that there are a lot of people against same sex marriage that are in the same boat.

However, there just so happens to be plenty who not only hate, not only are proud of said hate, but even advertise it.

The Westboro Baptist Church Is likley the most popular at the moment.
So how does this work exactly?

And I oppose such tactics and venom in their hearts. You'd have to judge WBC on it's own really.

 

[lilithu]

Your right to voice your opinion ends at my right to not have oppressive legislation enacted against me and my girlfriend.

It makes perfect sense to me.

People generally have the right to believe, say, and do whatever they want BUT there have to be limits to such freedoms, and the limit is that you can't impose your views on someone else's freedoms.

Your right to swing your fists ends at my nose, so to speak.

 

[lilithu]

I simply can't understand "Well, I don't hate you, but I don't want you to have the same rights that straight couples have. No harsh feelings!"

Jaymes, I know this sounds harsh but it doesn't require someone hating you to think that you are "lesser" in some way. I don't hate 6-year olds and yet I think they shouldn't have all the same rights as adults.

Of course, I like to think my view there is based on reason. I see no reason why gays and lesbians shouldn't have the same rights as straights, and indeed I see no reason why straights have the right to decide whether gays and lesbians should be "granted" the same rights.

 

[love]

Your right to voice your opinion ends at my right to not have oppressive legislation enacted against me and my girlfriend.

The last time I checked I didn't have the power to make legislative decisions other than what we all have, so my opinion does not end there.

 

[Reverend Rick]

People have the right to get a permit for a parade and demonstrate for their agenda.

People who want to come and heckle are truly coming very close to a hate crime.

If an anti gay group heckled and started a fight, that would be a hate crime.

I wonder if it could be possible for gay hecklers starting a fight at a christian rally doing time for their hatred as well?

 

[lilithu]

People have the right to get a permit for a parade and demonstrate for their agenda.

People who want to come and heckle are truly coming very close to a hate crime.

??! When I marched in the March for Women's Lives in 04, in support of a woman's right to choose, there were counter protesters there with pictures of aborted foetuses who yelled at us. We had a permit for our demonstration (which drew about a million people btw). Were the counter protestors coming close to a hate crime??!

 

[love]

Why is there a need for anti-gay protest? That would be different with the gays as the hecklers. I cannot recall an event with anti-gay protesters. Maybe I just don't watch enough of the"news" to know what is going on. That, I don't think is such a bad thing.

 

[lilithu]

I cannot recall an event with anti-gay protesters.

http://www.logcabinwa.com/archive/98101601.shtml

I couldn't find pictures of the protesters taunting and jeering Shepherd's parents and telling them that their son was burning in hell but I certainly remember it!!

Picketting funerals is about as low as anyone can go imo.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Somebody pinch me, this can't be for real. :areyoucra

I feel absolutely no hate toward any homosexual. If I did, it wouldn't be because they are gay. I'm blown away that some people on this thread have agreed to this. Maybe I see the word "hate" much differently.

Perhaps so...

But the refusal to recognize gay unions actually harms the GLBT community. I don't think that I am absuing the word at all by applying the word "hate" to the support of activities that actively harms other people.

I define "hate" as "neglect." To neglect your child's needs is to hate the child, even if the parent feels no passionate anger. This is not the only type of neglect, but an example. One can be quite emotionally and actively passive with respect to neglect.

 

[Reverend Rick]

??! When I marched in the March for Women's Lives in 04, in support of a woman's right to choose, there were counter protesters there with pictures of aborted foetuses who yelled at us. We had a permit for our demonstration (which drew about a million people btw). Were the counter protestors coming close to a hate crime??!

When it stops being verbal and becomes physical, yes!

I've never understood counter protesting. Everyone has a right to free speech and assembly. Why counter protest when you can have your own march?

 

[lilithu]

When it stops being verbal and becomes physical, yes!

That's a different criterion. Heckling is confrontational but it's still verbal.

I've never understood counter protesting. Everyone has a right to free speech and assembly. Why counter protest when you can have your own march?

Having been on both sides of it - been the counter-protestor and been the target of counter-protestors - I understand full well why people do it. If you believe passionately in something, you can't just sit quietly and let other people speak without showing disagreement in some way. Moreover, if there are no counter-protestors, it gives other people the impresssion that there is no opposition.

Everyone has the right to free speech. That includes the right to protests AND the right to counter-protest. You can say what you want but surely you can't expect to say something controversial without someone else disagreeing with you.

 

[Quiddity]

Perhaps so...

But the refusal to recognize gay unions actually harms the GLBT community. I don't think that I am absuing the word at all by applying the word "hate" to the support of activities that actively harms other people.

I define "hate" as "neglect." To neglect your child's needs is to hate the child, even if the parent feels no passionate anger. This is not the only type of neglect, but an example. One can be quite emotionally and actively passive with respect to neglect.

Neglect = Hate?

Hate isn't passive at all. It's very aware of it's existance. It is beyond me how you can equate these two.

Is this some change in academia that hasn't reached Webster?

Somebody contact Webster, cause I need to know If I'm hatin'....:149:

 

[love]

I think that we're also getting hung up on the word "hate" here. Groups that are in power don't have to actively hate marginalized groups in order to hurt them. In a lot of cases, all they have to do is support the status quo. And the marginalized groups experience the hurt on a daily basis and get angry about it. Just looking at it on the level of personal interactions what we see is members of the group in power calmly going about their business and members of the marginalized group shouting profanities in frustration. So it looks like members of the marginalized groups are just angry for no reason. It looks like they're the ones who hate while the people in power are just "trying to live their lives." Which often proves in the minds of people in power that the marginalized deserve to be marginalized.

But looking at it only from the level of personal interactions fails to take into account systemic differences in society. One group enjoys the privilege of being able to marry whomever they love, for example. The other group cannot do that, and are reminded of it on a daily basis - every time someone says "your partner" instead of "your spouse" even when you've been with your beloved for ten years, and the woman in your same office gets to call her partner "husband" and have everyone else recognize him as such even tho they've only been together for two months. Or your partner gets into an accident and has to go to the emergency room and you can't go in with him because your status as a family member is not legally recognized. These insults and injuries are experienced on a daily basis and add up to anger and even hatred towards the people who act to keep the unfairness in place. And these insults and injuries are NOT experienced by the people who automatically enjoy those rights, so they often don't understand the cause of the anger.

So it's not fair to just compare behaviors and attitudes as if everyone is treated equally because the whole point of this argument is that people are NOT treated equally.

Why you think that "groups that are in power" which is the only way you described people with opposing views to your own don't go through traumatic experiences? The scenario that you have presented would make anyone wonder if the whole world was against them.
Marginal differences would probably be left aside.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Neglect = Hate?


Hate isn't passive at all. It's very aware of it's existance. It is beyond me how you can equate these two.

Is this some change in academia that hasn't reached Webster?

Somebody contact Webster, cause I need to know If I'm hatin'....:149:

I shall write Mr. Webster a nasty note.

 

[Quiddity]

I shall write Mr. Webster a nasty note.

Be sure to tell him to add it to the list of synonyms, cause there is nothing in there about hate...:no: .