What Gripes did Jesus have with the Pharisees?

[Charity]

Jesus didn't have gripes against the Pharisees, but the Pharisees thought Jesus was a "blasphemer and a heretic"...............

 

[sojourner]

I don't think Jesus had a "gripe" with the Pharisees. "Gripe" is a powerless word, used to describe a fundamental problem of hypocrisy, when put in the light of truth.

Jesus spoke truth. Jesus knew truth. Jesus was truth. When confronted with hypocrisy, Jesus called it what it was, in no uncertain terms. I don't think "gripe" correctly defines that dynamic.

 

[Charity]

I agree with you Sojourner

 

[Heneni]

I don't think Jesus had a "gripe" with the Pharisees. "Gripe" is a powerless word, used to describe a fundamental problem of hypocrisy, when put in the light of truth.

Jesus spoke truth. Jesus knew truth. Jesus was truth. When confronted with hypocrisy, Jesus called it what it was, in no uncertain terms. I don't think "gripe" correctly defines that dynamic.

Many people would think that calling hypocrites a brood of vipers a significant gripe.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

No gripes. Jesus had grips. Mad grips.

 

[Charity]

Hello Heneni, In reading the post by Sojourner, I took it that he meant as in the sense of when one "gripes" that it is a continual complaint or voicing of one's discord over something.....And since scriptures say that God was displeased with murmuring and disputes, I felt like that gripe was not a good word to explain the reaction of Jesus to the Pharisees. my personal belief is that the word "gripe' would be a contradiction to what God, the Father desired.

 

[Mister_T]

We read a lot in the NT about Jesus complaining about the Pharisees and the Scribes. He never gets specific however. Anyone have any ideas about just what it was that Jesus had against the Pharisees? What about the possible altering of the scriptures, Temple Sacrifices, or demands that He adhere to biblical prophecy?

I'm guessing something along these lines:

"Matthew 23; 13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel."

 

[Halcyon]

He thought them too materialistic and egocentric.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

He thought them too materialistic and egocentric.

Perhaps. But how many of the anti-Pharisee tirades have been deemed likely authentic by the Jesus Seminar?

 

[Random]

He thought them too materialistic and egocentric.

Yes. This characterisation could be applied to any sort of Judaism though, including modern, with the sole exception of ancient Essene doctrine.

Yet Jesus clearly saw and understood a core of higher truth in Judaism that perhaps few of the Pharisees or their wholly materialisitc/egocentric rivals the Sadducees did.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

No gripes. Jesus had grips. Mad grips.

No, Angellous they weren't grips, they were grapes. Jesus didn't like the grapes of the Feris-sees.

 

[Azakel]

No, Angellous they weren't grips, they were grapes. Jesus didn't like the grapes of the Feris-sees.

Grapes, well that explains the wine. ^_^

 

[DallasApple]

Jesus would have a gripe ya'll were fighting(I think)..He might even throw some tables over or something.

Love

Dallas

 

[Scott1]

But how many of the anti-Pharisee tirades have been deemed likely authentic by the Jesus Seminar?

I'm suprised that you refer to the "Jesus Seminar"......

It is my general view that instead of demonstrating historical objectivity, the JS is poor scholarship based upon many hostile presuppositions..... but since I'm hardly the best judge, I'm wondering if you refer to them out of "respect" for their work or simply because it supports what you're getting at in this thread.....

Just curious my friend.

 

[idea]

they were prideful, they did no works, just putting on a show wearing fancy cloths etc... reminds me of some modern day denominations


Matt 23:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Mark 7:
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Luke 11:37 And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat.
38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.
39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

anyone up for faith vs. works debate? Pharisees are what you get with no works.

 

[Yid613]

Luke 11:37 And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat.
38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.
39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

anyone up for faith vs. works debate? Pharisees are what you get with no works.

All our actions are for the sake of Heaven, as such a meal is a Holy service. Before a meal one is required to wash their hands say a blessing and then say a blessing over the food. After the meal one also says various blessings, this is a Scriptural commandment. Should one who ignores the commandments complain about the observance of others?

The Pharise seem to be tying to conduct the meal with the proper intention. As an opportunity to perform commandments and bless G-d. His guest seems to be just looking for a nosh.

 

[Bennettresearch]

I don't think Jesus had a "gripe" with the Pharisees. "Gripe" is a powerless word, used to describe a fundamental problem of hypocrisy, when put in the light of truth.

Jesus spoke truth. Jesus knew truth. Jesus was truth. When confronted with hypocrisy, Jesus called it what it was, in no uncertain terms. I don't think "gripe" correctly defines that dynamic.

Hi Sojourner,

I only used gripe to tone down this thread a little and some have been having some fun with it. It's all good. I agree, I think there are deeper issues here than ritual washing, etc. I didn't want to start a thread with anything preachy however. I also want to hear from people so what do you think the deeper issues might be?

Craig

 

[Bennettresearch]

I'm guessing something along these lines:

"Matthew 23; 13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel."

Hi Mister T,

These complaints are certainly in there, but do they get specific about the corruption within the Temple? I'm thinking along the lines of altering scripture or giving what Jesus considers as an incorrect interpretation for the sake of political control. Things like that. I'm looking for other people's viewpoints on this so what do you think?

Craig

 

[Bennettresearch]

Perhaps. But how many of the anti-Pharisee tirades have been deemed likely authentic by the Jesus Seminar?

Well hey Jay,

This is more like it. I read Funk and Hoover's "The Fifth Gospel" and the Jesus Siminar too. It is very interesting and I think it is an important area of study. Of course, we really don't know what exactly was said because the reporting ethics were different back then and the author was removed from the actual event.

Please, sharing information is so much better than picking on Heneni or throwing out your one liners.:clap

Craig

 

[Bennettresearch]

They proclaimed to know the way to life, they made people think that their way is the way to discovering true life. They had the 'keys' to kingdom, but wouldnt let anybody else enter. They were stumbling blocks to those who desired freedom. What they proved to be to the people, were death. Which is why Jesus compared them to whitewashed tombs. Nice on the outside, but full of dead mans bones on the inside. Their theories and theology was based on the living words of god, which should prove to bring life to people, accept when they used it, they brought death.

His gripe with them was that they were not the 'life' they proclaimed to be.

Ever been in the presence of someone for ten minutes and you felt like you need a holiday? These people suck the life out of you. They are hypocrites.

Hi Heneni,

Well, these are generalizations of the type that Jay loves to pick on but I think your basic idea is correct. Jesus felt that the Jewish religion was corrupted by the Pharisees and they were more political than religious. They also were prone to take out the opposition which is a tradition that was carried on by another well know church in our history.

Way to stand up to Jay, right on!:yes:

Craig