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Featured What gives you the idea that a deity is real?

Discussion in 'Theism' started by Thirza Fallen, Aug 7, 2019.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    You can start in this thread The Bible - Why Trust It.


    So the different opinions on evolution makes it obsolete nonsense....


    Is that an assumption, or a question, or both.
    I read everything you posted... before you posted it. What's new? Nothing.


    Then we are both in the same boat... looking for evidence and reason, and not seeing any.


    I did more than that. What do you want me to do now... beat you over the head until you see?


    That's not so.
    It tells you that? How?


    Huh?
    What questions do I ask about the universe?


    What I want to believe? I asked you. You didn't answer. That's a confirmation that the answer is obvious.
    Want to try again?
    Here we go.
    If there is a beginning, would the beginning have had a beginning?
    If the beginning is able to plan, must the beginning also be intelligent?


    Sorry Skepticism may not be terrible, but it must demonstrate open-mindedness
    I have not seen that.
    Open-minded? No.
    See above, anyway.


    Yes. Thinking too much foolishness is not recommended for Christians, We are encouraged to reject foolish ideas and reasoning.


    I don't know how you arrived at that.
    You are making statement, but they are not supported by truth. They are simply statements made at whim... it seems. That's not because you have already switched off your brain... is it? :shrug:
     
  2. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    Dear oh, dear - it starts with historically accurate? Not only is that irrelevant to the point, the bible isn't all historically accurate and any non-religious expert will tell you.

    Firstly, there is no disagreement about the basics of evolution (discounting the tiny, tiny cult with an obvious religious vested interest). Secondly, as far as the details go, we are gathering evidence and testing hypotheses against it. This is science, the evidence isn't meant to be a clear message from some god.

    So how do you describe it as "ideas and opinions" when it is quite clearly solid evidence?

    What reasons have you given to think your god is real? Your blind faith in an old, contradictory book of myths and your simplistic intuition about "design", don't even get off the starting block.

    Because if the message were clear and unambiguous there wouldn't be so many conflicting interpretations of it. Just look at all the religions, cults, sects, and denominations there are in the world, then tell me with a straight face that there is a clear message from a god in there somewhere.

    Your question: "What is the origin of "design"?" Answer: "my favourite god". Why does your god exist?: "I dunno, who cares?".

    I already told you my answer to your questions. These two questions are both nonsensical.

    Has that made you feel better?

    Try reading what I said.

    What truth?

    It seems wrong then.
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Another claim with no basis.


    Other claims with no basis.



    More claims with no basis.


    More opinion.



    More opinion.



    More rude comments that require no response.
     
  4. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    I would say there's physical proof of a creator in the Bible's record of 100% fulfilled, verifiable, testable, corroborated prophecies.
     
  5. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    1. This has nothing to do with your original claim about "the universe, based on the law of conservation and matter and energy".

    2. Is this serious or are you joking? What fulfilled, verifiable, testable, corroborated prophecies? I've never heard of even one that doesn't fall apart under the least bit of scrutiny (much like your initial claim mentioned above).
     
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  6. Thirza Fallen

    Thirza Fallen Crazy Cat Lady

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    What about the unfulfilled prophesies?
     
  7. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    Lack of proof is because atheists say there is a lack of proof. Not because there is.

    Suppose for a second thst we are told that an old man named Lord of Heaven and Earth, Father of All Things, created life, the universe, physical objects, and such things as motion/gravity/momentum which allow the moon to orbit Earth and the world we know of to exist.

    Okay, how do we prove such a thing exists since we cannot see this? Do we give some complicated proof involving science or scripture or both? No need. It's simple, the easiest evidence of a creator is creation. All of this stuff exists, thereby a creator exists.

    But, you say, that's a stupid argument, everyone uses it and it's already been disproven. Firstly, I will lay down cash that no satisfying disproof of something simple like this has ever been given. Oh sure, there are at least two or three major "disproofs" used against theism and another that is commly used which is used even though it carries no weight. Last one, we'll start with.

    "But you have no proof (of what you just said) ." This would be a valid idea if we were talking about something that is not in fact self-evident. If you cannot in fact accept that at least on thing in this universe you have seen born (thereby eliminating on of the major arguing points, that the universe is eternal), you are probably deliberately trying to deny basic truth. Too much of this will literally make you insane.

    But things aren't just created, they evolve. Sorry, but evolution is not a disproof of creation. When you trace back heritages, everything had a parent, who had a parent, on back until you have to say "if it wasn't created, how tdid this first life exist?"

    Or you say, quantum theory says this universe isn't real. Yes, this is a clever theory, except a philosopher already got into this. It's called the Evil Genius or sometimes Evil Demon theory. Basically it goes like this, a demon (unnamed usually), has set up a world that looks, sounds, and even smells real. I can be sure of: the creation (even if it isn't real, someone wove together an illusory canvas), myself, and the demon in question. This is equally true whether or not the world around us is real. In fact, the only thing that changes here is whether or not other people and the created world are real. They exist though, even as illusions, and possibly if they are illusions we can say they're basically the demon talking to us using multiple false bodies. So no, even if you were to propose this world is false, it's still real(ish).

    The second one is "we know how all of this stuff works therefore something other than a creator made all of this." Okay, here's the thing. First, let's assume you know everything about the weather, including how to generate it via cloud seeding. It doesn't change the fact that before you came along, weather was operating without human intervention for centuries, no does the knowledge of how something works invalidate it. Or you would basically be saying that because you know how clouds work, they can't exist either. Odds are, you don't actually know, any better than the myth makers of old. You can recite science about it, but neither predict nor control weather so yeah, no. Further, the issue with this is it's basically a fill in. It's like saying, "because I know about how reality works, there cannot be an old man named Lord of Heaven and Earth, Father of All Things. The world is simply too nurturing, to have some old man create it." Congratulations , you turned an old man into an adult woman, and switched Father to Mother. And that's basically all you did. You didn't invalidate the need for a creator, you just shifted their nature. To female. Or to a set of laws like gravity (which you now worship), or to nonexistence which you firmly believe in. Human beings are capable of believing in nothing, but thrpey are not capable of not believing.
     
  8. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    Nobody's ever provided a satisfying disproof of the universe being sneezed out of the nose of the great green arkleseizure, or of leprechauns, or fairies, or my pet invisible dragon named George.

    Or of the nose of the great green arkleseizure. How come this creator or the the great green arkleseizure exists, then? They must, by this "logic", be evidence of a meta-creator or meta-nose.

    Where are you getting these strange ideas of why people don't believe in gods?

    The point is that nobody knows why stuff exists and is the way it is and postulating a god doesn't really help - even if we accept a god (or gods), we still don't know why the god and its created stuff exist and are they way they are.

    It's a baseless guess that explains nothing fundamental at all.
     
  9. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    That's weak, and you know it.

    Are there any dragon tracks? No? Then why should we care about dragons? What about pots of gold? Not typically. Sorry leprechauns. Gibberish made up word has zero presence in anything, so also no.

    Unicorns, people could at least claim were real. Until they met narwhals.

    My dad, yesterday after I wrote this last one, had left for the day. How did I know that he had been here? Finished bowl of cereal. "There is no proof of your dad being there"? Would you also say that? All of us are created. We have a mother and father, but also an original Mother/Father. You can possibly contest whether such still exists (as in "God is dead" spoken by a man, who like many other famous atheists/agnostics (Psychology of atheism - Conservapedia) had a dysfunctional relationship with his own earthly father), but there definitely is the same sort of evidence that you're there as a result of a long process of creation/evolution. Finished bowl of cereal.

    Where do I get these strange ideas, you ask? Well, to quote Chrono Trigger, I didn't pick anything up, it's called common sense!

    Nobody knows why stuff exists is a copout, as is the declaration that something is a baseless guess. The ancient people once they had free time, had no video games to occupy their attention. Nor were they insane or idiots as you seem to believe. Once work was done, they had most of the day to think about "why are we here?" And they came up with a series of conclusions:
    1. I cannot have come from nothing as I was born.
    2. While my parents were also born, eventually there had to be a first human.
    3. Such a human must have come from somewhere else (evolution as an explanation eventually hits this same point when we get to the earliest bacteria)
    4. Natural phenomena doesn't really turn 0 into 1, nonliving into living. So an origin kinda has to have someone else make me who does not also have another making him/her. Otherwise we're left with yet another long chain.
    5. There's also all this weather, rocks, trees, ground, sky, stars, sun, and moon.
    6. There must be gods/God who did this, cuz whatever did so is so far beyond our power that it can't just have happened.
    7. There is a single consistent order to things. There are not gods, but a single God.

    Psalm 14:1. "The fool has said in his heart there is no God." You know why he's called a fool? Because everything around him has been given to him, yet he refuses to see any of it. Almost like he feels something would be required if he happened to believe in God, like he'd be forced to worship. Well nothing could be further from the truth. Luke 4:18-19. This is what God wants for us. Not our worship. What do your earthly superiors (bosses, government, etc) demand of you? Oh right. Absolute obedience. Matthew 20:25.
     
    #229 Samantha Rinne, Aug 16, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  10. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    None of this disproves any of my examples. That's the point. Saying that an idea has not been disproved is not an argument that it is correct.

    You don't seem to be paying much attention - I said "Where are you getting these strange ideas of why people don't believe in gods?" You seem to have some odd ideas how atheists come to their conclusions - ones that I don't recognise at all.

    No - it's the truth. Even if we accept the existence of a god (or gods), unless you can say why it (or they) exist, you still don't know why things exist.

    Unless you can provide a basis (which you haven't), I stand by my statement.

    I'd ask for your money back from that mind-reading course, if I were you.

    Or they liked to tell stories...

    You are begging the question - assuming your conclusion. You have provided no reason at all to think that it is a "someone".

    Baseless day-dreaming. Sure, something must have happened that doesn't fit into the preceding way of thinking but you have provided no basis at all to think it must be anything like "gods" or a "god".

    Quite apart from the fact that your "reasoning" fell apart before this, this argument is not even valid (it doesn't follow even if its premisses were true).

    Why is it that religious people think that quoting from their holy books is going to impress anybody who is not a believer?

    Like I said, that mind-reading course was a waste of money.
     
  11. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Of the Return of Christ? :)
     
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