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What evidence for God

wilsoncole

Active Member
Numbers describe everything, eventually.
Not true.
They do not describe things that really matter.
Try numbering right and wrong.
Try numbering peace.
Or an ideal family life.
Or love. Or kindness.
Faithfulness.
Security.
Are you kidding?
Silly can be valid, and is in surprisingly many cases.
Try it when you are being stopped by police.
The Big Bang theory states that the entire universe condenses into a singularity at the first point in time.
NO! That happened just once.
However, if you consider this first point in time, it is obvious that the universe already exists. Hence, there is no point in time when the universe, or time, does not exist.
You said that. It is still senseless.
I am aware that the universe exists. I do, however, challenge your claims of its eternity. What would you use as proof of your claims?
I stumbled across these debates yesterday.
Your argument is dealt with here:
[youtube]w1Y6ev152BA[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1Y6ev152BA&NR=1
[youtube]GVOyLZdhTPA[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVOyLZdhTPA&feature=related
I would be finding a solution to the problem. Of course, since the problem is such a high priority I can't spare the time to think about it, I must take shortcuts.
What in the world are you talking about?
That's what "good" and "evil" are for.
How would you know? You can't recognize either.
You cannot judge correctness based on morality, which is what that Bible verse implies you should do.
And YOU cannot decide how anyone should judge correctness.
Time is a component of the universe. It must be true.
What "must" be true?



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Wilson
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Numbers describe everything, eventually.

Nay....

Silly can be valid, and is in surprisingly many cases.
The Big Bang theory states that the entire universe condenses into a singularity at the first point in time. However, if you consider this first point in time, it is obvious that the universe already exists. Hence, there is no point in time when the universe, or time, does not exist.

Nay....Movement is relative.
Time is a measure of movement.
At some 'point'...nothing moved.
With only one point there can be no other reference...or speed....or direction....or light....or...etc...etc....etc....

As in void.

I would be finding a solution to the problem. Of course, since the problem is such a high priority I can't spare the time to think about it, I must take shortcuts. That's what "good" and "evil" are for.
You cannot judge correctness based on morality, which is what that Bible verse implies you should do.

Time is a component of the universe. It must be true.

Nat to all.
 

Maury83

Member
Bible writers were inspired by God to write the 40 books.
If God doesn't exist (and therefore didn't inspire those holy writings) how is it possible that, most of these ordinary men who never met eachother and who lived hundreds of years apart, write of the same things? How come there is harmony between all the books of the Bible?
And if God didn't exist, how come the Bible speaks of the earth being round centuries before man found the evidence of it not being flat?
How come prophecies written in the Bible with great detail come to fulfilled?
How come books of the Bible that many believed to be an invention, were later found to be accurate accounts because of historical evidence being unearthed?

It can't be a coincidence and all the efforts many take to undermine the existance of God still dont explain the above.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
Bible writers were inspired by God to write the 40 books.

You mean the books that condone slavery, punish adultery by death, promote eternal hell, contain genocide, animal sacrifice - you mean these books are inspired by God? No, they simply are not. They are myths created by superstitious nomads who had no idea about evolution, biology, physics, geology, astronomy. Nor did they have any idea about disease, that it is actually caused by bacteria, viruses, genetic mutations, hearts attacks and so on. They thought that God caused disease on people who weren't holy enough. These books are no different than the countless other man-made scriptures which have already been discarded.

If God doesn't exist (and therefore didn't inspire those holy writings) how is it possible that, most of these ordinary men who never met eachother and who lived hundreds of years apart, write of the same things?

Because the same ideas were in circulation in the area in which they lived, the eastern mediterranean.

How come there is harmony between all the books of the Bible?

Which translations are we talking about here?

Jews do not believe in eternal torment, because its not in the OT. Most Christians believe it.

God is cast as perfect, yet he is so low as to torment people forever.

The OT calls for stoning, the NT says 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.

There is no harmony between the books of the bible. They were written in different time periods, contain laws that were clearly manmade, contradict eachother numerous time, and evolve around primitive animal sacrifice rituals.

And if God didn't exist, how come the Bible speaks of the earth being round centuries before man found the evidence of it not being flat?

:facepalm:

How come prophecies written in the Bible with great detail come to fulfilled?

They don't, or they were written after the fact, or they got lucky. Many of them are purposefully vague. Some of them probably were meant as motivational tools to stir up people to war. Hey,if God says that we should attack the neighbouring nations and commit genocide on the populace - except for the virgin girls which we can take for ourselves, of course - we should do it right?

How come books of the Bible that many believed to be an invention, were later found to be accurate accounts because of historical evidence being unearthed?

Like what? Like an older book of the same kind is found, containing the same myths?

Or an ancient city is unearthed that is talked about in the bible? So? That has nothing to do with the bible being divinely inspired. Its just history.
 
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Maury83

Member
You mean the books that condone slavery, punish adultery by death, promote eternal hell, contain genocide, animal sacrifice - you mean these books are inspired by God? No, they simply are not. They are myths created by superstitious nomads who had no idea about evolution, biology, physics, geology, astronomy. Nor did they have any idea about disease, that it is actually caused by bacteria, viruses, genetic mutations, hearts attacks and so on. They thought that God caused disease on people who weren't holy enough. These books are no different than the countless other man-made scriptures which have already been discarded.

I didn't say that they had more knowledge than us. Wrong as they may sound to you (because you obviously have some kind of resetment in there) these ignorant nomads lived hundreds of years apart from each other and were writing the same stuff...which means when A was writing, B was dead for centuries and A never read or spoke to B....



Because the same ideas were in circulation in the area in which they lived, the eastern mediterranean.

Just as me and you have the same ideas???? mmm nah.


Which translations are we talking about here?

The whole Bible.....just reading it is not enough, research is necessary. It contains figures of speach and illustrations that if taken literally don't make sense...and by by what you write, you never studied the Bible but you just picked a few scriptures and sentences that if not read in context suit YOUR ideas. And with this I am not picking on you or pointing a finger at you...it is your choice to have limited Bible knowledge and to stick to science, and I respect it.

Jews do not believe in eternal torment, because its not in the OT. Most Christians believe it.

God is cast as perfect, yet he is so low as to torment people forever.

The OT calls for stoning, the NT says 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.

There is no harmony between the books of the bible. They were written in different time periods, contain laws that were clearly manmade, contradict eachother numerous time, and evolve around primitive animal sacrifice rituals.

:facepalm:

Eternal torment is not a Christian teaching but a false one, not supported by the Bible. When Jesus came to earth he did away with most of the "LAW" (including stoning)...again...if you did some proper research you would know this.



They don't, or they were written after the fact, or they got lucky. Many of them are purposefully vague. Some of them probably were meant as motivational tools to stir up people to war. Hey,if God says that we should attack the neighbouring nations and commit genocide on the populace - except for the virgin girls which we can take for ourselves, of course - we should do it right?

The Bible speaks of the overthrow of Babylon explaining who would do it, when and how...this was written 200 years befor it happened and the way it was overthrown is documented....I don't expect you to believe me....just do some research before writing.

Like what? Like an older book of the same kind is found, containing the same myths?
Or an ancient city is unearthed that is talked about in the bible? So? That has nothing to do with the bible being divinely inspired. Its just history.

Like the scrolls of Isiah being unearhed....Isaiah was believed to be invented....like the documents containing the name of Caesar Augustus....He was also thought to be an invention....turned out to be a real person....and this was recored in the myth book!!
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
:facepalm:


Get over yourself and face facts.
You stick to the same tired phrase, and ignore the fact that you have exempted your own God from your "proof" of God.
You have only convinced yourself. Congratulations on your superb "logic".
You have proven God to yourself. That must have taken a lot of faith.
If you consider yourself a person and not a thing, the same goes for God.
Nothing comes from nothing. Period!
And that's a fact!


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Wilson
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Bible writers were inspired by God to write the 40 books.
If God doesn't exist (and therefore didn't inspire those holy writings) how is it possible that, most of these ordinary men who never met eachother and who lived hundreds of years apart, write of the same things? How come there is harmony between all the books of the Bible?.

Harmony?

2 Samuel 23:8 These be the names of the mighty men whom David had: The Tachmonite that sat in the seat, chief among the captains; the same was Adino the Eznite: he lift up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time. (KJV) 1 Chronicles 11:11 And this is the number of the mighty men whom David had; Jashobeam, an Hachmonite, the chief of the captains: he lifted up his spear against three hundred slain by him at one time. (KJV) :shrug:
And this is only one of hundreds of examples of disharmony in the Bible.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
If you consider yourself a person and not a thing, the same goes for God.
Nothing comes from nothing. Period!
And that's a fact!
I am something, a human being.
I am also someone, Tumbleweed.
Your personification of your concept of God changes nothing.
Quite playing with words and face it.
Your "nothing from nothing" argument fails.
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
Nice to see your religion keeps you from being cynical.
Nothing to be cynical about. It is an apt description of today's world.
Also, you asked for the source of human nobility, now you're saying that because bad things exist it somehow cancels out this answer. You're shifting the goalposts, Wilson.
It is the story of this dying and confused world. Following its ways is not working.
Why the dismal failure?

Because a lot of people are douches. And a lot of those douches are religious.
In what way are you an exception?

Interesting. So when will singups start for the cult of Wilson? Will there be a mass suicide?
Singups? Cult? Suicide? What are you talking about?



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Wilson
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
Not true.
I am aware that the universe exists. I do, however, challenge your claims of its eternity. What would you use as proof of your claims?
I stumbled across these debates yesterday.
Your argument is dealt with here:
[youtube]w1Y6ev152BA[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1Y6ev152BA&NR=1
[youtube]GVOyLZdhTPA[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVOyLZdhTPA&feature=related

Wilson

Here's my argument, if I may:

A self-existent world
The Big Bang theory has enjoyed almost universal support from scientists for nigh-on seventy years. Of late it appears to have dissenters and some scientists now believe it has serious flaws, while others are putting forward alternative theories. However, theists generally seem to have incorporated the Big Bang theory into their doctrinal beliefs, and it is as good an argument as any for sceptical purposes.
To say something caused the Big Bang, a physical phenomenon, is a perfectly logical supposition. After all, everything about world is physical and answers to cause and effect. So in order to argue that the world is an effect we must assume a worldly cause. My argument is that the world (‘world’ in the philosophical sense) is all that there is: it is reality and existence itself. And to say that reality and existence itself must be dependent upon a further existence and reality for its cause is an unjustified argument, since causality is just experience, an association of two events and part of the reality! This circularity (The Fundamental Problem of Causal Inference) identifies the impossibility of directly observing causal effects (God or the Big Bang). And so ‘God exists’ is dependent upon the assumption that a sequence of events must always follow, which is dependent upon a yet further assumption that such a phenomenon exists outside the world of experience. Matter is constantly and continually being recycled and reformed, and the phenomenon of change and causality is just part of the world. If causality is a worldly phenomenon then causality together with the world can also be conceived to not exist, which means the world’s existence cannot be explained by reference to further causes, since causality must exist outside the physical world in order for a Creator to bring the world into existence. So there doesn’t have to be any humans, there doesn’t have to be laws of gravity, laws of motion or the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics. But if there is no law of cause and effect then arguments to God immediately become impossible. Every scrap of contingent matter may be said to be absolutely dependent upon God, but God cannot be God without the concept of cause and effect, which is a feature of the contingent material world but not logically necessary! So if there is no such thing as causation then God is not intelligible, since believers are only able to reason to a God by assuming the universe was caused. So the necessary truth ‘God is God’ is logically dependent upon a concept which is not itself logically necessary.
My last point is known as an argument from sufficient reason. A self-existent world doesn’t require an explanation or need a reason for being, but if a thing is created there must be a reason or a purpose for its creation. So what is it?
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
You mean the books that condone slavery,
Slavery existed before Bible writing began. The Mosaic Law made it more humane when the problem touched the Israelites. Jehovah dealt exclusively with Israel and His commandments were intended for them only, not for the rest of mankind. Trying to apply those laws to todays generation is a waste of time and shows a lack of understanding. Israel was the ONLY monotheistic nation on earth.

“He is telling his word to Jacob, His regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has not done that way to any other nation; And as for [his] judicial decisions, they have not known them.” (Psalm 147:19-20)
Pagan nations did not have those Laws, nor were they interested in living like the Israelites.
Getting rid of slavery totally would have meant interfering with the nations that practiced it. He did not interfere and they preferred it that way. But when they interfered with Israel, trying to corrupt and enslave them again, He had to slap them down in order to protect his people. He did this by granting victory to Israel against overwhelming odds.
“For, as regards Jehovah, his eyes are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him. . . .” (2 Chronicles 16:9)
He is still granting victories to his people today, in spite of overwhelming odds.
Even you, who claim to abhor slavery so much, are guilty of condoning and even supporting it.
punish adultery by death,
Since that applied only to Israel, what do you find wrong with it?
promote eternal hell,
You are spreading a lie. There is no such place and the Bible does not teach it.
contain genocide,
If you really know what genocide is you would not say that. Research it and then let us know if you find it to be engaged in by God's people in the Bible.
animal sacrifice
Since that applied only to ancient Israelites, what do you find wrong with it?
- you mean these books are inspired by God?
YES!
No, they simply are not.
If you read and misunderstand them, you will take that view.
They are myths created by superstitious nomads who had no idea about evolution, biology, physics, geology, astronomy.
Show me one thing of a superstitious nature in the Bible.
You talk as if those things are all true and vital to life. Why is it that the very people who are versed in these things are unable to live in peace and are bent on destroying the earth and all life on it? What wisdom have they demonstrated with all that knowledge?
Nor did they have any idea about disease, that it is actually caused by bacteria, viruses, genetic mutations, hearts attacks and so on.
You are seriously mistaken! They knew how to deal with disease, how to prevent its transmission, all the necessary precautions that were passed on to them through the Mosaic Law.. (Le 13:1-59; 14:38, 46; Nu 19:11-13; De 23:9-14), )
These practices kept Israel healthy. On the other hand, what do we know about the pagan contemporary nations and their practice of healing?

"Ancient Egyptian knowledge of medicine has often been presented as quite scientific and advanced. While some knowledge of anatomy is evident and certain simple surgical methods were developed and cataloged, much ignorance is also revealed. Thus, while an Egyptian papyrus text speaks of the heart as being connected by vessels to every part of the body, the same text presents the vessels as carrying, not blood, but air, water, semen, and mucus.

Not only was there a fundamental misunderstanding of the functions of the living body, but the medical texts are heavily dosed with magic and superstition; magical spells and incantations make up a major portion of the information.

Remedies not only included beneficial herbs and plants but also prescribed such ingredients as the blood of mice, urine, or the excrement of flies, which, together with the spells, were “calculated to drive the possessing demon out of the man’s body in sheer disgust.” (History of Mankind, by J. Hawkes and Sir Leonard Woolley, 1963, Vol. I, p. 695)
Those were not the practices in Israel.
They thought that God caused disease on people who weren't holy enough.
Who told you that?
Show us where they did.
These books are no different than the countless other man-made scriptures which have already been discarded.
Isn't that curious? Why has the Bible, alone, persisted even in the face of the most vicious attempts to destroy it?
Because the same ideas were in circulation in the area in which they lived, the eastern mediterranean.
We'd like to see you substantiate that statement.
Which translations are we talking about here?
Any translation will do.
Jews do not believe in eternal torment, because its not in the OT.
Neither did they believe God's own son.
Most Christians believe it.
Only counterfeit Christians do. True Christians know better.
God is cast as perfect, yet he is so low as to torment people forever.
Show me a single case where the God of the Bible did that.
Check this out: Jeremiah 7:31.
The OT calls for stoning,
For what crimes?
Only for Israel. No other nation.
the NT says 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.
That has been proven to be spurious.
There is no harmony between the books of the bible.
Let's see you prove that. I know what the Infidel websites say about it but you will find that it is not true.
They were written in different time periods, contain laws that were clearly manmade,
Let's see you name one.
contradict eachother numerous time,
There are no contradictions in the Bible, despite what others tell you.
and evolve around primitive animal sacrifice rituals.
Show us where the Bible EVOLVED around anything.
No rituals in Israel:
"By the time the Messiah arrived the Jews had added many cleansing rituals that the Law did not require. Jesus related: “When back from market, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves by sprinkling; and there are many other traditions that they have received to hold fast, baptisms of cups and pitchers and copper vessels.”—Mark 7:4." (w78 4/1 31-2)
They don't, or they were written after the fact, or they got lucky.
Did you check this out before you wrote it? Not so.
Besides, there is no such thing as luck.
Many of them are purposefully vague. Some of them probably were meant as motivational tools to stir up people to war.
That's what they say when the don't understand it.
Hey,if God says that we should attack the neighbouring nations and commit genocide on the populace - except for the virgin girls which we can take for ourselves, of course - we should do it right?
Who are you referring to as "we?" Did you ever get such a command?
Do you know of any modern nation that ever did?
Get some facts before you attack things you know nothing about.
Like what? Like an older book of the same kind is found, containing the same myths?
Do you mind substantiating that statement?
Or an ancient city is unearthed that is talked about in the bible? So? That has nothing to do with the bible being divinely inspired. Its just history.[/quote]
More like history corroborating prophecy.

The fulfillment of Biblical prophecy can and has been proved.



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Wilson
 

outhouse

Atheistically
And still no evidence

Only evidence ancient hebrews created their god from previous pagan myths

And tons of evidence the bible was written by man for man, their mistakes shine through
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
I am something, a human being.
I am also someone, Tumbleweed.
Your personification of your concept of God changes nothing.
Quite playing with words and face it.
Your "nothing from nothing" argument fails.
THING
Definition:
thing [thing]
n (plural things)
1. object: an inanimate object What’s that thing over there?

Nothing comes from nothing!
Period!

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Wilson
 

outhouse

Atheistically
If there was any evidence it would make that higher power...well, not so high

that doesnt make one bit of sense

the reason there is no evidence is because imagination and fiction provide no evidence
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
Interesting claim from a JW. A sect rife with failed prophesies.
The fulfillment of Biblical prophecy can and has been proved.

The flinging of of charges and accusations is the usual tactic of unbelievers.
Its intention is diversionary, seeking to promote a time-consuming defense of the accusations.

They always fail.


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( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
THING
Definition:
thing [thing]
n (plural things)
1. object: an inanimate object What’s that thing over there?

Oh, you want to play "Dictionary War"?

OK


thing &#8194;


–noun 1. a material object without life or consciousness; an inanimate object.

2. some entity, object, or creature that is not or cannot be specifically designated or precisely described: The stick had a brass thing on it.

3. anything that is or may become an object of thought: things of the spirit.

4. things, matters; affairs: Things are going well now.

5. a fact, circumstance, or state of affairs: It is a curious thing.

6. an action, deed, event, or performance: to do great things; His death was a horrible thing.

7. a particular, respect, or detail: perfect in all things.

8. aim; objective: The thing is to reach this line with the ball.

9. an article of clothing: I don't have a thing to wear.

10. things, a. implements, utensils, or other articles for service: I'll wash the breakfast things.

b. personal possessions or belongings: Pack your things and go!



11. a task; chore: I've got a lot of things to do today.

12. a living being or creature: His baby's a cute little thing.

13. a thought or statement: I have just one thing to say to you.

14. Informal . a peculiar attitude or feeling, either positive or negative, toward something; mental quirk: She has a thing about cats.

15. something signified or represented, as distinguished from a word, symbol, or idea representing it.

16. Law . anything that may be the subject of a property right.

17. new thing, Jazz . free jazz.

18. the thing, a. something that is correct or fashionable: That café is the thing now.

b. that which is expedient or necessary: The thing to do is to tell them the truth.

Thing | Define Thing at Dictionary.com
 
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