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Featured What does your Religion think about Gay and Transgender People?

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Serpent Child, Jan 25, 2017.

  1. Liu

    Liu Well-Known Member

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    Sure, sounds pretty awesome. Kali is among my favorite deities anyway.
    But isn't it the case that in India traditionally only transfemales are recognized as sacred or third gender? And wouldn't that technically mean that transmales should be assumed to be under the protection of Shiva instead? Not like I would mind that either :D



    Interesting. I'm the only among my close relatives who has outed themselves yet, but I know one of my brothers is genderfluid (without dysphoria, though) since he/xe told me, and I have suspicions about both my mother and my other brother being not quite cis either - but if that's really the case they should come to the conclusion themselves, no help in pushing them to it if I'm not even sure.

    I guess I can count myself lucky that I wasn't ever really forced into behaving like a girl. So the only thing that really gives me depressions is the physical aspect - the social aspect is probably much easier to manage for transmales like me than for transfemales.
     
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  2. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

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    Sorry, I was not precise enough here. Genetic defects or chromosome abnormality is a medical condition, but "Gender Dysphoria" which is just a "feeling" of a mismatch between biological sex and gender identity is not, as you say, treated as a psychosis today even if it was in earlier times.

    What is much worse today is that Gender Dysphoria is treated as if it had physical / chemical causes that can be cured by physical changes. It is only a psychological / spiritual issue, but which people today try to attribute to other causes. Frequently it arises from social upbringing, or it may be conditioned by chosen lifestyle or by harmful contact with other (sinful) people. This is the "TV" generation, where all sorts of harmful influences are being thrust into people's faces, day in, day out. It's why I don't have a TV. I am quite sure that TV is itself one of the principal causes of Gender Dysphoria along with bad parenting.

    There is no doubt that psychological / spiritual issues can lead to chemical changes in the body, because the two are not separate but a combined entity. The body is the temple of the spirit. The mistake is to assign to involuntary chemical changes what is or should be under spiritual control - if one is spiritually alive.

    If one is spiritually dead to truth and divine authority, the body, in the form of demon possession, may take complete control over the mind and spirit, and this can lead to all sorts of serious, permanent and irrecoverable changes, and illnesses, as the bible records of the demon possessed whom Jesus cured. This is partly why religion or rather true religion is so important. It does not only affect the future hope of salvation. It affects everyday life.
     
    #62 outlawState, Apr 23, 2017
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  3. Liu

    Liu Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that your knowledge of the scientific status quo is a bit outdated.
    As was mentioned in previous posts, there have been scientific studies which show that gender dysphoria (i.e. feeling in the wrong body) is correlated to physical causes, namely a different brain structure.
    There have also been studies that show that physical changes (i.e. hormone therapy, surgeries) "cure" it in so far as the feelings of gender dysphoria get reduced by a lot (or even disappear completely).
    I don't think I ever saw a scientific study showing correlations to the upbringing.
    Therefore your arguments seem invalid.

    If Christianity (or your kind of it) "helps" transsexuals in any way then by making them suppress and deny it so much that they may not even know that they are transsexual. It can be expected that this suppression leads to other psychological issues, though, so I wouldn't recommend it.
     
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  4. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    I'm not sure since transgendered people aren't really considered male or female anyway. Hence why they are called the Third Sex.
    Arsanarishvra, a form of Shiva that is merged with Parvati is rather special to the Hijra community. As to Shiva specifically, there very well could be Hijras who are sympathetic to Shiva as he is the consort of Ma Kali.
    But there are specific deities that the gay community and Hijras pray to because it's believed they offer them extra protection. While Kali is among them specifically, Shiva is not. That's not to say Hijras would be excluded from praying to him obviously.
     
    #64 SomeRandom, Apr 23, 2017
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  5. Liu

    Liu Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply, that's really interesting.
    Well, all Hijras I saw so far on pictures seemed to be male-borns dressing female, i.e. transwomen. But who knows whether that's true for all of them.

    Admittedly, I'm using the terms rather imprecisely myself.
    I mean, I'm calling myself a transmale, but that doesn't even mean that I identify explicitly as male. To me it only means that I have dysphoria regarding the physical aspects of being female-born, but my gender identity is another category that is much more difficult to determine for me. Probably somewhere between male and neither, for whatever that even means.
     
  6. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    :eek:
    You would close down churches en masse for disagreeing with you on Scriptural interpretation?
    I have noticed this among religious folk a lot.
    That's why we secular folk are so difficult about church state separation. It's as much to protect the rights of religious people as nontheists.
    Tom
     
  7. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    Well, Hijras in general don't really have a Western translation. Not exactly anyway. Most are born male, some undergo surgery, but there are "categories." Cross dressers, transgenders, transsexuals and eunuchs. Sexuality is often denied by the community, believing that sexual energy should be used towards spirituality instead. There are even specific rituals that Hijras take part in. Like the Koovagam, where they marry Arjun and then mourn his death, a reenactment of the ancient myth.
    So the term itself is.......complicated.
     
    #67 SomeRandom, Apr 23, 2017
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  8. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    The brains of transgender people have been examined, and even pre-hormone treatment their brains look more like the sex/gender they identify as rather than the sex they were assigned at birth. This adds very strong evidence that cause is physiological in nature.
    There are most definitely physical causes behind it, and treatments that revolve around trying to make a patient comfortable and content as their birth assigned sex have been tried and failed. Medical treatment to physically transition them to the sex they identify as, however, has been shown to be far more successful and lead to far less depression and suicide.
    Funny how you're so certain of what causes it, yet scientists themselves aren't exactly entire sure themselves. They've found some differences, most definitely rooted in nature, but they have also found some possible nurture causes. But you cannot be brought up to be a girl if you are a boy (it's been tried and failed - ended with suicide), no one chooses to be trans, it's not the result of hanging out with "sinful" people (or else we could expect many more transsexuals than there are), and TV has absolutely nothing to do with it, and, besides that, most TV portrays us in a very negative way.
    I have no demons within me. As for Jesus, I was never more miserable than when I was a Christian. I was born/raised a Christian, yet I was also born trans.
     
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  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    This cannot be emphasized enough. These "conversion therapies" are destructive and should be banned, and anyone who wants to call themselves a Christian needs to realize they damage it does and they should not be pushing such things, as very often they lead to increases in depression and risk of suicide.
     
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  10. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    It's part of life and it's perfectly fine.
     
  11. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    You really need to read this because you're not quite correct: Viking Answer Lady Webpage - Homosexuality in Viking Scandinavia

    I don't know where you're getting your nonsense from. Most of what we know about Heathenry is from the lens of Christian writers in the first place. Obviously they were not likely to have had a positive view of homosexuality. But there's reason to believe that the pre-Christian Germanic people weren't that bothered by it, at least not to the point of the death penalty! They seemed to share much of the same views of homosexuality as the Greeks and Romans did. In other words, penetrating another man wasn't really frowned upon, being penetrated was associated with "unmanliness" and you were expected to have a family and care for them, since they were pastoral peoples. That's the same way that the Greeks and Romans viewed it, since they were all patriarchal and misogynist (while still allowing room for differences, although they might have viewed it as odd). Either way, we are not living in ancient Scandinavia or Classical Greece or Rome, so there's no reason why we can't adapt ancient Pagan ways to modern living and the knowledge we have now. We're not reenactors.

    Transgenderism was known to the ancient Norse. Loki and Odin both have gender-variant and bisexual attributes and Norse shamans were known to be gender-variant.
     
    #71 Saint Frankenstein, Apr 25, 2017
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  12. Liu

    Liu Well-Known Member

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    Gender-shifting gods doesn't seem that much of a good argument to me, though. Do you have any sources on shamans being gender-variant? That sounds interesting, but so far I only heard such about modern shamans.
    Or are you taking about how Seiðr is being associated with women and therefore a male shaman practicing it would be considered untypical for his gender?
     
  13. Nietzsche

    Nietzsche The Last Prussian
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    That's emphatically untrue. The Norse only cared if you didn't produce some kind of heir for your property. Though it should also be stated that the notion of modern homosexuality, rather than just sex between two or more people of the same gender, didn't exist in the ancient world. But that again is because they needed children to help with the maintenance of society, and to ensure there isn't any conflict over who gets what when you die.

    The notion that sex between two men or the like is inherently bad is a Christian belief forced upon them.
     
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  14. Liu

    Liu Well-Known Member

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    I'll hereby revoke my agreement with this comment. While the whole issue of the association of níð with homosexuality implies that being gay certainly wasn't seen as the best thing in the world in Germanic society, I have yet to see a source for it being actually punishable by death.
     
  15. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Why wouldn't their tales and attributes of the Gods be a good argument? You can learn a lot about a society by how they viewed their Gods. Remember what I said about most of what we know about the pre-Christian Germanic peoples being told to us by Christians. They are the ones who outlawed homosexuality and those cultures were mostly Christian by the time the Eddas and Sagas were finally written down. It is important to be mindful of possible cultural biases in the Lore due to this. The Roman Empire also made homosexuality punishable by death after it was Christianized, but we certainly wouldn't say that Greco-Roman culture was totally against homosexuality or transgenderism prior to its conversion.

    The article I posted mentioned certain priests:

    "Apparently homosexuals had a role within the worship of the Vanic gods. The Christian chronicler Saxo Grammaticus scornfully reported in his Gesta Danorum that some priests of Freyr used "effeminate gestures and the clapping of the mimes on stage
    and . . . the unmanly clatter of the bells." Dumézil sees evidence for a group of priests of Njôrðr and Freyr who were honored, yet seem to have engaged in acts of argr, and who may have worn their hair in styles reserved normally only for women or even dressed themselves as women (Dumézil 115).

    One might assume that the morals expected of gods cannot necessarily be applied for humans. However, there were likewise a number of heroes known to have been guilty of ergi such as Helgi Hundingsbana (see above). Another famous ragr hero is the famous Icelandic hero Grettir, who in the poem Grettisfærsla is said to have had sexual intercourse with "maidens and widows, everyone's wives, farmers' sons, deans and courtiers, abbots and abbesses, cows and calves, indeed with near all living creatures," (Sørenson 18) yet no one attached opprobrium to Grettir because of his vast, and omnisexual, prowess."

    Yes, Seiðr is associated with both gender-variant and homosexual practices among males and this was true especially in pre-Christian times. It's a cultural constant with shamanism, it seems.

    "Finally, why seiðr should have included a buggering of the wizard? An obvious answer is that he had to become female to practice the seiðr, which agrees well with the statement of the prose Edda. This is all the more certain as women can obviously practice seiðr without receiving this treatment. Another example of this feminization is provided to us by some Siberian shamans, called the ‘soft men’, who dress like women and sometimes marry men. As for the antiquity of this behavior, it is without doubt since even Hippocrates reports this fact for certain Scythian soothsayers scythes who also state they received from a goddess their divinatory knowledge (named Aphrodite by Herodotus, and thus the goddess of love of the Scythian civilization)."
    Seiðr, seið, Sol-Iss-Þurs and Nordic shamanism

    "It is important to note that this negative attitude may be a result of Christian and continental influence. After all, the texts were written down well after Christianity was introduced, and whereas it took several centuries before the concept of women meddling with magic was thought of as “bad”, the demands on masculine behavior were much more harsh from an early stage. It is my impression that even before the Conversion, Christians played on inherent ideals of manliness in order to put paganism in a bad light. During pagan times, the general masculine ideal could be transcended by sorcerers who would move in both masculine and feminine spheres (whether they were masculine or feminine themselves). A certain “unmanliness” was always associated with sorcery and divination, for various possible reasons. Some sorcerers seem to have been transgendered or gay, sorcery being a realm in which people who did not fit into the hetero-norm could thrive. Transgender behavior may have been regarded as unusual but magical and sacred. Male sorcerers who were not gay, transgender or particularly feminine would still be seen as operating within a subtle, hidden, mysterious sphere that was “unmanly”, manliness being associated with openness and direct confrontation rather than the performing of secret spells."
    Seiðmaðr and Earl – The Male Sorcerer or Shaman | Freyia Völundarhúsins
    A Womb by Magic – Transcending Gender, Transcending Realities | Freyia Völundarhúsins
     
    #75 Saint Frankenstein, Apr 25, 2017
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  16. Hammerheart

    Hammerheart Well-Known Member

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    There are some examples in the myths of deities doing things that would be considered socially unacceptable in the time period. For example, Freya was said to enjoy a type of erotic music known as mannsongr, despite this being illicit in prechristian Iceland. Sometimes, deities embody extremes, for example, Baldr is the god of light and Summer, while his brother Höðr, the god of Winter and darkness, acts as a counterbalance. In ancient Scandinavian society, it was likely assumed that both deities were good, their values should be balanced.

    It matters not what was thought of homosexuals and gender nonconformists in the ancient and Medieval world. I have no problems with homosexuality, and the majority of Pagans, even the traditionalists, would probably concur with me.
     
  17. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    In the post you quoted, I'm not even talking about deities, but priests and shamans - actual (at the time) living human beings and how they were viewed and treated by the pre-Christian Norse. You were the one who said in your original post: "however, many of us attempt to approximate the views of the ancient Germans and Norse as accurately as possible". Well, you were wrong about how the pre-Christian Norse likely viewed it in the first place. So how can you claim to "approximate the views of the ancient Germans and Norse as accurately as possible" when you're factually inaccurate?

    It seems that you're trying to backtrack or have forgotten what you originally said. You can't say you're trying to "approximate the views of the ancient Germans and Norse as accurately as possible" while at the same saying that their views on it don't matter. Which is it?
     
  18. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    I don't understand why people get so upset about any of this.

    The vast majority of people are ordinary cis straight people, quite capable of breeding in sufficient numbers.
    Too many really.

    A tiny number are queer. That tiny number don't hurt anybody or anything. Why do ordinary people care, or think that some supernatural being does? Why not just mind your own business?
    Tom
     
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  19. Hammerheart

    Hammerheart Well-Known Member

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    You missed what I said in my original post here a while back. I said that I disagree with the ancient consensus on the matter of gay and transgender rights. I used to focus more on approximation, by the way. Now, my interpretation is more modern and I include deities like Set, Kali, Satan, and the Goetic Demons into my beliefs, therefore, I am not strictly a Norse Pagan, though it is the primary aspect of my beliefs.

    I think that the Germanic outlook on life, views on nature, honour, justice, and so on and so forth are very just, and thus I try to approximate that in my views. However, I don't see any honour in hating gays for their sexual preferences.
     
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  20. Liu

    Liu Well-Known Member

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    I agree, it can tell a lot, but if it's the only source it can also be very unreliable and our understanding completely dependent on our modern interpretations.
    Like @Hammerheart just wrote, deities (and heroes and apparently also shamans) have licenses to do things that are frowned upon when normal people do it.

    Thanks for the information.
    Yes, I heard some similar interpretations before. But I had forgotten about the historic findings on it.

    Interesting how once again only amab transgenders and gays seem to be mentioned, the equivalent afab transgenders and lesbians being hardly findable even though the current statistics show them to be not any rarer.
     
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