What does it mean to be a 'Jew'?

[Ebionite]

Not using the name in vain requires having a subsititute for mundane purposes.

Why do you say that?

 

[Harel13]

Hi Harel13. Good evening. Good point. I assume that Judith may have been a religious person who knew at least some of the truth.

Atheism wasn't really a thing then, so she was obviously religious. Now, what god or gods she worshipped - that's another matter.
According to Genesis 26:34-35, she was a Hittite and a source of bitterness to Isaac and Rebekah. It doesn't sound like she knew some of the truth.

 

[dybmh]

Why do you say that?

Because, it is impossible speak about God in a mundane ( or worse ) setting without having a substitute word or title if the commandment is not to use the name in vain.

The issue is, the literal translation of the commandment says "Do not lift the name in emptiness." What does this mean? It means do not use the name falsely AND do not use it in an empty/unholy setting.

Of course, there are always exceptions. But, a substitute is needed in order to comply with the commandment outside those exceptions.

 

[Ebionite]

Because, it is impossible speak about God in a mundane ( or worse ) setting without having a substitute word or title if the commandment is not to use the name in vain.

You've only restated your assertion.

The issue is, the literal translation of the commandment says "Do not lift the name in emptiness." What does this mean? It means do not use the name falsely AND do not use it in an empty/unholy setting.

Your interpretation doesn't show any connection between empty and false or between empty and mundane.

That problem could be avoided by interpreting the commandment in terms of this verse:

And it shall come to pass at that time, [that] I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, YHWH will not do good, neither will he do evil.
Zephaniah 1:12

Of course, there are always exceptions. But, a substitute is needed in order to comply with the commandment outside those exceptions.

Arguments made on the basis of need are typically bad ones, since necessity does not regard the rights of others.

 

[dybmh]

You've only restated your assertion.

You asked why. I'm not sure how else to answer except quote the verse and tell you what I think it means using the original language.

Your interpretation doesn't show any connection between empty and false or between empty and mundane.

Does this help? It's the word in the Hebrew which is translated into 'vain'.

Klein Dictionary, שָׁוְא 1

שָׁוְא m.n. 1 lie, falsehood. 2 nothingness, worthlessness, vanity. [Related to Arab. sa’a (= was or became bad, was or became evil, was foul, was...

www.sefaria.org

That problem could be avoided by interpreting the commandment in terms of this verse:

And it shall come to pass at that time, [that] I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, YHWH will not do good, neither will he do evil.
Zephaniah 1:12

If a person wants to keep the commandment, I think it's important to consider the spirit of the law. No, not a spirit of the law which I think you interpret as "Jesus". But the intention of the law giver. What is it that you think are the intentions of the prohibition?

I think it's about respecting the name, and making sure that it is always used in manner which is congruent to its greatness. Using it falsely, like swearing would be one example. Using it casually would be another example. Using it in a men's restroom would be another example.

I do not think that the verse you brought should be used to interpret the prohibition in Exodus.

Arguments made on the basis of need are typically bad ones, since necessity does not regard the rights of others.

How does using the substitute title HaShem ( literally 'the name' ) disregard the rights of others?

 

[Ebionite]

Does this help? It's the word in the Hebrew which is translated into 'vain'.

Thanks for that. It's reasonable to think of things that are false as being worthless.

If a person wants to keep the commandment, I think it's important to consider the spirit of the law. No, not a spirit of the law which I think you interpret as "Jesus". But the intention of the law giver. What is it that you think are the intentions of the prohibition?

Yes, it's appropriate to consider the intent. To determine the intent one has to first identify the context.

Context: Jerusalem, candle, settled, inaction.

O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my Elah: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Daniel 9:19

The spirit of man [is] the candle of YHWH, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Proverbs 20:27

I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that [were] in the bottom; and behind him [were there] red horses, speckled, and white.
Then said I, O my lord, what [are] these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these [be].
And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These [are they] whom YHWH hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
And they answered the angel of YHWH that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
Zechariah 1:8-11

And I am very sore displeased with the heathen [that are] at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction.
Zechariah 1:15

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Revelation 6:1-2

Interpretation: Forgiveness is associated with the name, man's spirit is relevant, the symbol of the horseman is associated with divine retribution against the nations.

-> Those with spirit can find forgiveness through the name, but the unforgiven will be conquered.

How does using the substitute title HaShem ( literally 'the name' ) disregard the rights of others?

It doesn't, it's about necessity. The implication is that the use of the substitute title of haShem is a bad idea. In context the name is the remedy, so suppression of the use of the name suppresses the remedy.

 

[dybmh]

Thanks for that. It's reasonable to think of things that are false as being worthless.

Your very welcome. Did you notice the word 'nothingness' as one of the translations. From a spiritual perspective, one could argue, the mundane is nothing compared to the holy.

Yes, it's appropriate to consider the intent. To determine the intent one has to first identify the context.

The context is Mt. Sinai, God is revealing itself to the entire nation and the mixed multitude simultaneously. It's described as a terrifying experience. Leading up to verse 7:

1. I am the one and only eternal God, YHVH
2. I rescued you from egypt and bondage
3. All others are idols
4. Don't make any graven images and serve them
5. I am a jealous god punishing the fathers and their children of those who hate me
6. And showing mercy to those who love me and keep my commandments

So. 5 and 6 lead up to verse 7. The inention seems to me to be, use them name in the proper way ( love me ) and don't use it in an improper way ( like those that that me ).

Verse 7: Don't take/lift the name into falsehood and nothingness. It needs to be reserved for holy matters and it should not be spoken falsely.

Context: Jerusalem, candle, settled, inaction.

O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my Elah: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Daniel 9:19

The spirit of man [is] the candle of YHWH, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Proverbs 20:27

I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that [were] in the bottom; and behind him [were there] red horses, speckled, and white.
Then said I, O my lord, what [are] these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these [be].
And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These [are they] whom YHWH hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
And they answered the angel of YHWH that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
Zechariah 1:8-11

And I am very sore displeased with the heathen [that are] at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction.
Zechariah 1:15

I think its really cool what you're doing here. But, does this have any bearing on whether or not a substitute name or title is needed for God for use during mundane circumstances?

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Revelation 6:1-2

Interpretation: Forgiveness is associated with the name, man's spirit is relevant, the symbol of the horseman is associated with divine retribution against the nations.

-> Those with spirit can find forgiveness through the name, but the unforgiven will be conquered.

Sorry, this does not sound OK for me. Finding forgivenss through "the name" sounds like the name is becoming a magic word, and magic like that is forbidden for me and technically for all Jewish people. So, I can't go with this as a valid interpretation of the use for the name of God.

Forgiveness is not a magic trick. It's not something that gets turned on and off like a light switch. If that were the case, then God is the light switch, and the repentent is forcing God to do what they want.

It doesn't, it's about necessity. The implication is that the use of the substitute title of haShem is a bad idea. In context the name is the remedy, so suppression of the use of the name suppresses the remedy.

It's not supressing it in that way. It's keeping it holy. Holy. Kadosh. Sanctified. Seperate. If what you're saying is true then King David would be using "the name" in Psalm 51. But he doesn't. Instead he crushes his heart.

 

[Ebionite]

Your very welcome. Did you notice the word 'nothingness' as one of the translations. From a spiritual perspective, one could argue, the mundane is nothing compared to the holy.

That effectively eliminates the essence of it. "Holy", as a translation of קדש, means set-apart. If there's nothing that it's set apart from, then it's not set-apart so it's not holy, i.e. unholy.

There's a similar issue with the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, which conflates the set-apart spirit with the spirit of Elohim.

Leading up to verse 7:

So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
And Elohim spake all these words, saying,
I [am] YHWH thy Elah, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exodus 19:25-20:2

Verse 7: Don't take/lift the name into falsehood and nothingness. It needs to be reserved for holy matters and it should not be spoken falsely.

Again the problem with necessity.

Sorry, this does not sound OK for me. Finding forgivenss through "the name" sounds like the name is becoming a magic word, and magic like that is forbidden for me and technically for all Jewish people. So, I can't go with this as a valid interpretation of the use for the name of God.

How would that be any different to the following?
And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of YHWH shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as YHWH hath said, and in the remnant whom YHWH shall call.
Joel 2:32

Assuming that forgiveness is a consequence of mercy, then there's the covenant of David:

Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
Wherefore do ye spend money for [that which is] not bread? and your labour for [that which] satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye [that which is] good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
Isaiah 55:1-3

Forgiveness is not a magic trick. It's not something that gets turned on and off like a light switch. If that were the case, then God is the light switch, and the repentent is forcing God to do what they want.

Yes, the doctrine of mercy is one of the Messianic teachings. From James:

For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
James 2:13

 

[dybmh]

That effectively eliminates the essence of it. "Holy", as a translation of קדש, means set-apart. If there's nothing that it's set apart from, then it's not set-apart so it's not holy, i.e. unholy.

Holy is seperate from the mundane similar to something is seperate from nothing. They are like night and day, open and closed, true and false.

There's a similar issue with the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, which conflates the set-apart spirit with the spirit of Elohim.

I'm not going there.

So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
And Elohim spake all these words, saying,
I [am] YHWH thy Elah, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exodus 19:25-20:2

Anochi YHVH. I am the one and only eternal. Literally "I am the one who is like me, YHVH".

Again the problem with necessity.

If someone is thinking, "I'm going to die unless I use the name" no one is going to stop you. Having a substitute is an option. So, no one's rights are being disregarded. But honestly, God knows the heart and all the secret places in heaven and earth, right? ( Jer 23:23-24 ) So, if the name is somehow forgotten, assuming it's even pronouncable, it's not a huge problem. It just happens a little differently. Here's an example of a prayer which I would expect would be acceptable to you and to God.

"Dear Lord, I don't know your name, and I'm sorry for that. I was born in a time and place where your name is no longer known. But, please, make your will here on earth as it is heaven just as Jesus taught it could be and would be for those who are faithful. Amen, Amen."

How would that be any different to the following?
And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of YHWH shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as YHWH hath said, and in the remnant whom YHWH shall call.
Joel 2:32

Well, if it is read literally, this is a future prophecy. We would need to read the rest of the chapter to see what the conditions are that define this future event. Is it just using the name like a magic word?

Let's find out! ~reading Joel 2~

​

Verses 12-13​

​

Yet even now, says the Lord, turn to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning;​

And tear your heart, and not your garments, and turn to the Lord your God; for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repents of the evil. Blow the shofar in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly;​

Sounds like Psalm 51, doesn't it?

Then while this battle is happening, verses 21-23

Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice; for the Lord will do great things. Be not afraid, you beasts of the field; for the pastures of the wilderness shall spring, for the tree bears its fruit, the fig tree and the vine yield their strength. Be glad then, you children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God; for he has given you the first rain in due measure, and he has brought down for you the rain in the first month, the former rain, and the latter rain.​

So basically, have faith. Then after the battle as described, ( I have it as 4:1-5 ):

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions; And also upon the servants and upon the maidservants in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the awesome day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the remnant those whom the Lord shall call.​

​

After the fasting, mouring, and breaking their heart. After they have faith in the midst of chaos and destruction, All flesh will be prophets. Young and old, men, women, children, slave, and free. Wonders in heaven and earth, blood fire and smoke. Sun is dark, the moon is blood. And it shall come to pass that whoever call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So, what do you think? Has this happened yet? Is it the name that is acting like a magic word, or is it part of a process which includes "calling on the name". And BTW, does "calling on the name" mean pronouncing it out loud? Could it be something else?

Assuming that forgiveness is a consequence of mercy, then there's the covenant of David:

Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
Wherefore do ye spend money for [that which is] not bread? and your labour for [that which] satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye [that which is] good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
Isaiah 55:1-3

Those words are coming from a preacher, not from the Lord. Come unto me and live? I will make an everlasting covenant with you? That's just the preacher preaching. The later chapters of Isaiah become less and less prophecy and more and more preaching. Maybe 8, 9, and 10 are prophecy.

Yes, the doctrine of mercy is one of the Messianic teachings. From James:

For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
James 2:13

Good, then we agree. Using the name like a magic word is not what is taught in scripture. God requests faith, maybe fasting, and true repentence which is a function of the heart ( metaphorically, not physically )

 

[Ebionite]

Holy is seperate from the mundane similar to something is seperate from nothing. They are like night and day, open and closed, true and false.

No, like the sabbath is set-apart from the other days of the week. You've effectively adopted the Trinitarian idea of what is holy.

And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy ground.
Exodus 3:5

Ordinary ground isn't nothing.

If someone is thinking, "I'm going to die unless I use the name" no one is going to stop you. Having a substitute is an option. So, no one's rights are being disregarded.

Arguably they're being disregarded if the practice occurs in common law jurisdictions, since the common law rights of life and liberty are dependant upon deity.

Then hear thou from the heavens, [even] from thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for; that all people of the earth may know thy name, and fear thee, as [doth] thy people Israel, and may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name.
2 Chronicles 6:33

So, if the name is somehow forgotten, assuming it's even pronouncable, it's not a huge problem.

It's not a problem unless the people of YHWDH forgot how to pronounce their own name.

O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my Elah: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Daniel 9:19

Those words are coming from a preacher, not from the Lord.

So who is this preacher who is giving David as a witness?

Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
Isaiah 55:4

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Good evening to you as well.



Good idea, let's check.



Well. The scripture you brought does not use the name you have chosen, so that's a problem.

In greek it's Θεοῦ , and Θεὸς. Theos, basically. A generic word for divinity not a name.

Please consider Hannah in 1 Samuel 1, the quintessential example of prayer:

​

And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed to YHVH, and wept bitterly.​

​

And she vowed a vow, and said, YHVH-Tz'vahoht, if you will indeed look on the affliction of your maidservant, and remember me, and not forget your maidservant, but will give to your maidservant a male child, then I will give him to the Lord all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.​

​

And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the YHVH, that Eli observed her mouth.​

​

And Hanna spoke in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard; therefore Eli thought that she was drunk.​

​

...​

​

Then Eli answered and said, Go in peace; and Elohai-Yisrael grant you the petition that you have asked of him.​

​

...​

And it came to pass, in due course, that Hanna conceived and bore a son, and called his name Samuel, saying, Because I have asked him from YHVH.​

So, Hannah uses the name YHVH-Tz'vahoht. Eli uses the name Elohai-Yisrael. And the prayers were answered.

It's a much better example than Acts 17, don't you think?

Then there's Psalm 145. Arguably the 2nd best example of praise and prayer in scripture.

The Lord is near to all those who call upon him, to all who call upon him in truth.​

​

Notice. This is conditional on truth, not on which name is used. If the entire Psalm is read, King David describes precisely what it means to 'bless the holy name". It has nothing to do with consonants and vowels. It has everything to do with what God does. God's reputation.

And, if that's not enough, please consider the 10 commandments. Exodus 20:6

And showing mercy to thousands of those who love me, and keep my commandments.​

​

Notice, again, what are the conditions? Love and keep. Knowing how to pronounce the name is irrelevant.



Well yes and no. Acts 17 towards the end is about idol-worship. The sermon is inspired by an idol labeled 'unknown god'. The preacher uses this as the beginning of the sermon and tells them what is known about God; tells them God is not make of precious metals and stone. God is not an idol.

Naturally the preacher in Acts 17 wants to convince them also of the truth of Christ, but, nothing in the entire chapter supports this notion you have brought in this thread:

"If you're not using yahweh as the name of God, then it's not praise."



Hannah knows what to do.
Eli knows what to do.
King David knows what to do.

None of it is bound to a specific pronounced name.

Hannah spoke in her heart and only her lips were moving.



Yes, you most certainly should.



The story has nothing to do with divine names does it?



Not true. You have been given scripture which supports different names. Please forgive me, but, how well do you know the book of Psalms?

Perhaps one of the most important psalms in the whole book, 51. Are you claiming King David prayed in vain? The prophet Nathan says he was forgiven. Verse 3:

​

חנני אלהים כחסדך כרב רחמיך מחה פשעי׃​

​

Be gracious to me, O God, according to your loving kindness; according to the multitude of your mercies blot out my transgressions.​

​

That's NOT 'yahweh'.

If what you're saying is true, King David would not have been forgiven. 'yahweh', the name, does not exist in that Psalm. Verse 12:

​

לב טהור ברא־לי אלהים ורוח נכון חדש בקרבי׃​

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a constant spirit inside me.​

I repeat. That's NOT 'yahweh' either.

If what you're saying is true, King David would not have been forgiven. 'yahweh', the name, does not exist in that Psalm.


You can do whatever you want. But it's clear that multiple different names are acceptable.

Who told you that praise is unlawful using any other name? After reading the scripture I brought, isn't it clear I was right in my reply to this thread? Making claims like this indicates ignorance not knowledge?

If this is the same source that declares with certainty, 'yahweh' is the correct pronunciation, do you still trust them for accuracy? Clearly they do not know scripture.




I find it repugnant to make a declaration like this. The Almighty can choose to respect or not to respect whomever, whenever, for any reason, and for no reason. Isaiah knows. 55:8

​

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord.​

Another story that has nothing to do with which name was used. The story tells you the difference between their offerings.

Abel brought the best of the flock.

Malachi 3:16

 

[dybmh]

No, like the sabbath is set-apart from the other days of the week. You've effectively adopted the Trinitarian idea of what is holy.

You can label it whatever you want. Trini-tarian, turkey-tarian, tuna-tarian, tofu-tarian, what ever. In my tradition we call the 6 days of the week mundane. And yes the sabbath is set apart, holy.

And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy ground.
Exodus 3:5

Ordinary ground isn't nothing.

Compared to the holy ground, it is nothing, it's empty, it's just a shell. Material.

Arguably they're being disregarded if the practice occurs in common law jurisdictions, since the common law rights of life and liberty are dependant upon deity.

Then hear thou from the heavens, [even] from thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for; that all people of the earth may know thy name, and fear thee, as [doth] thy people Israel, and may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name.
2 Chronicles 6:33

Well. I'm not convinced that this translation captures the intended meaning. In this verse, they may know את־שמך. The first word in the pair is את, it's a mysterious word. The dictionary entry is below. It's an accusative for "essence, being, and existence". So את־שמך, imo, is not knowing a pronounciation. It's knowing the essence, from beginning to end, from A to Z, from א to ת ( the first and last letters of the alphabet ) of the name's significance and meaning.

Klein Dictionary, אֵת ᴵ 1

אֵת ᴵ, אֶת◌ prep. the mark of the accusative. Usually prefixed only to a definite noun, as in אֶת־הָאִישׁ (= the man). [Related to Moabite את, Phoen. אית...

www.sefaria.org

All 3 verses in 2 Chron 6 use this expression for God's name, את־שמך. And it makes sense in context. When God answers the requests of the other nations, they will know that God is all powerful, eternal, all knowing, etc.

However, it's a different phrase in Joel 3 ( chapter 4 in the Hebrew bible ).

It's not a problem unless the people of YHWDH forgot how to pronounce their own name.

Why? This is so strange. Didn't you bring Joel as a source? ALL FLESH will prophecy. If the name is unknown it will certainly be revealed at that time so that the prophecy will be fulfilled where all who know the name will be saved.

And even without the prophecy the same one who revealed the name originally can certainly reveal it again.

And even if the name is not revealed, I have endless faith the God knows best and God will always take good care. If I need to know something, God will reveal it.

Doesn't Jesus teach not to worry and the Father will provide for you just as the birds? Let's see.... ~checking~ Yes! Starting at Matthew 6:25. Also Luke starting at 12:22. Don't worry.

O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my Elah: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Daniel 9:19

elah? Where is elah in this verse?

אדני שמעה אדני סלחה אדני הקשיבה ועשה אל־תאחר למענך אלהי כי־שמך נקרא על־עירך ועל־עמך׃

אלהי =/= elah

And, yes, the people are called by the Lord's name. Yisrael. Yi-sr-ael. י-שר-אל. ישראל

So who is this preacher who is giving David as a witness?

No one knows for sure. It's supposed to be Isaiah, but the writing style has clearly changed. Could be Isaiah, could be a disciple of Isaiah's. It doesn't really matter. Anyone can call on the spirit of King David as a witness. Anyone can call on heaven and earth as a witness.

Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
Isaiah 55:4

Do you think that God needs to call any witnesses? Does this sound like something an all powerful deity would proclaim? Why would God need any witnesses?

 

[dybmh]

Malachi 3:16

Amen!

 

[Ebionite]

Compared to the holy ground, it is nothing, it's empty, it's just a shell. Material.

That's very similar to what Paul said about idols - that they're nothing.

Making the comparison involves being able to quantify the differences.
What makes the sabbath set-apart is the fact that work is forbidden.
Apart from work, all the days are the same, eg there's no difference between them if you consider a day only in terms of prayer.
So for your comparison to be true, work is all that matters and prayer must be nothing.

I'm not convinced that this translation captures the intended meaning.

OK, so what would you change if you were translating it?

Why?

Because if you know how to pronounce YHWDH then all you've got to do is drop the D and you've got YHWH.

Didn't you bring Joel as a source? ALL FLESH will prophecy. If the name is unknown it will certainly be revealed at that time so that the prophecy will be fulfilled where all who know the name will be saved.

Revealed by who? Wouldn't it make sense to reveal it early so that people would not be lost through ignorance?

Doesn't Jesus teach not to worry and the Father will provide for you just as the birds?

Yes, there's also this:
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy Elah, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:6

אלהי =/= elah

Yes, of course. English readers aren't likely to know that the yud in elahi means "my", though.

And, yes, the people are called by the Lord's name. Yisrael. Yi-sr-ael. י-שר-אל. ישראל

Sorry, but that's absurd. When YHWH refers to his own name he doesn't use the word El.

No one knows for sure

So why reject the simplest explanation? What's wrong with YHWH sounding a bit "preachy"?

 

[Flankerl]

Day 912500 of non-Jews explaining Jewish peoplehood and national religion to Jews

 

[Messianic Israelite]

A fair statement, but, maybe ask yourself this. In those occasions where ignorance was ( and is ) overlooked, what is it that is valued in those circumstances? The answer to that question, I think, will resolve whatever disagreement we have over this issue.



This doesn't match what I know about the way the NT was scribed. They thought the greek words were holy, and they were omitting those greek words. So, there wasn't a removal of the sacred name over time. And even if it was, the greek would say Kyrios ( κύριος ) replacing the four letter name, however you choose to pronounce it. Acts 17 does not use that word.

Nomina sacra - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That's an assumption which does not seem to have any basis.




Lord-of-Hosts, YHVH-Tzvahoht is a divine name. When Hannah prayed she was praying to God using the name "YHVH-Tzvahoht". Yes, she was praying to YHVH, but she was using the name YHVH-Tzvahoht.

Isaiah 47:4, 48:2, 51:15, 54:5. Here's an example:

​

As for our redeemer, the Lord of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.​

​

Jeremiah 10:16, 31:34, 32:18, 50:34, 51:19. Here's an example:

​

He, who is the portion of Jacob, is not like them; for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance; The Lord of hosts is his name.​

​

I don't know this person, or author, but, "an external mark or brand" is God's expressed-will in the form of actions revealed to humanity. It's what God does.

Hi dybmh. Good evening. Sorry it has taken this long to get back to you. It's not because I was at a loss for words by any means, it's because I have simply been busy. Upcoming at the end of this week is the Feast of Trumpets for us. I couldn't fit everything on one message as I ran out of character spaces, so I'll respond to msg #19, Yahweh willing, in two parts. That aside, I hope you are well. Let's consider some of the things you have said. You said:

A fair statement, but, maybe ask yourself this. In those occasions where ignorance was ( and is ) overlooked, what is it that is valued in those circumstances? The answer to that question, I think, will resolve whatever disagreement we have over this issue.

I would imagine that, if a person is trying to keep the commandments of Yahweh, to which they know, to the best of their ability, then Yahweh would be willing to overlook infractions against His Law. Have you considered the Shema? Deuteronomy 6:5 says that we are to love Yahweh with all our heart, soul and might. Even if we do not know all the truth, yet we are trying our best to please Yahweh, Yahweh will in my opinion have mercy on that person. However, what I find is that many times Yahweh has in His love and great mercy revealed His Truth to people, people he considered to be worthy to receive it, people who he wanted to improve their worship of Him, so that they could draw closer to Yahweh however they chose to reject it. I'm sure you have read Ecclesiastes 4:1. It tells us the importance of listening and receiving admonition. That is more to be valued than great status, even kingship. Do you remember Josiah, how he warred against Neco King of Egypt? He was warned, even though it was by a worldly king, not to fight against him and Josiah died in battle against the Egyptian Pharaoh Neco at Megiddo. It says of Josiah "[He] did not listen to the words of Neco from the mouth of Elohim, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo." You might be asking what my point is of explaining this. My point is, the Shema begins with the word 'Hear' and Yahweh doesn't want people to be ignorant, so He reveals things to people He wishes to be in sound doctrine so they can be assured of attaining the Kingdom. If we choose to not hear, we go from being ignorant to being rebellious, and like Josiah, though he was an incredible king, may die in our sin.

See also the following scriptures. Yahweh is loving. Whether we hear or not when the truth is revealed, He would rather us not to be in ignorance. He gives us the choice of rejecting His truth or accepting it, but if we reject it, judgement will come for it.

1. Ezekiel 2:5
2. Ezekiel 2:7
3. Ezekiel 3:11

This doesn't match what I know about the way the NT was scribed.

What do we know about how the New Testament was scribed? We only have copies of other copies. The Greek language is not a holy language. The stand taken by the Assemblies of Yahweh is that the New Testament was inspired in Hebrew and Aramaic, and subsequently translated by uninspired men into Greek and then into English as well as many other languages. We believe that although the original text was inspired, there is no such thing as an inspired translation. Therefore, until such time as the original documents are unearthed we must base all doctrine on the Old Testament. We should utilize the New Testament, however and allow the Old Testament to interpret the New. Yes, we believe that every word of the New Testament was Yahweh breathed in its original Hebrew or Aramaic purity. At present, however, because of man's tampering with and corrupting the text, we must research and study to know what He breathed. The dilemma that theologians have been confronted with for well over a millennium now is that there exist no original manuscripts of any New Testament books unless they remain undiscovered. The oldest manuscripts extant with the exception of some Syriac fragments are Greek. And yet the authors of the New Testament books in some cases were incapable of writing in Greek and in other cases would not have chosen to. At a very early date, undoubtedley late in the first century of the common era, the New Testament assembly became apostatized, where the original New Testament writings were translated into Greek, and the original documents were hidden, lost or destoryed, perhaps intentionally.

Even if somehow these books were written originally in Greek, which we doubt, we maintain that the authors would have retained the true inspired Hebrew Names for the Heavenly Father and His Son. We can substantiate that they realized the vital significance of these Names and they could not be translated, but in order to maintain sound doctrine and harmony with the Old Testament, they had to be transliterated.

A pilot article was published in the Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 96, No. 1, March, 1977. Written by Dr. George Howard of the University of Georgia and entitled "The Tetragram and the New Testament" in which the exciting possibility that the Tetragrammaton (the four letters of the Sacred Name in Hebrew), was originally contained in the New Testament texts. The surrogates, kurios and theos were employed to stand in place of the Sacred Name because of a desire by some Messianic believers to be in harmony with Jewish tradition.

That's an assumption which does not seem to have any basis.

The very fact that the Messiah's Name was Yahshua meaning "Yahweh is salvation" should be all the evidence you need to see that Yahshua used the Name Yahweh and taught His disciples to also.

Lord-of-Hosts, YHVH-Tzvahoht is a divine name.

The term Yahweh of Hosts (Yahweh Tzevaot or Sebaoth) is similar to the other titles attached to Yahweh's Name such as Yahweh-Jireh, Yahweh-Ropheka, Yahweh-Nissi, Yahweh-Shalom, Yahweh-Zidkenu, Yahweh-Shammah, Yahweh-Elyon, Yahweh-Moshi'ek, Yahweh-Elohim, Yahweh-Roi or Yahweh-Mekadishkem. These aren't divine names. Yahweh has one Name - Yahweh. Sometimes titles are attached to His Name to convey just a single aspect of His incredible power. If I pray to Yahweh and I use the title Yahweh-Jireh, I am still praying to Yahweh, but I may include a title depending on what I am asking Yahweh for. In the case of Yahweh-Jireh, it may be to provide a need. Isaiah 42:8 clearly tells us that Yahweh has one Name.

Have you ever read Hosea 12:5? Here we read "Even Yahweh, the Elohim of hosts; Yahweh is his memorial name". It's clear then that Yahweh of Hosts is the Name of the Almighty with one of His titles attached, but Yahweh is His Name and His Memorial. We cannot escape this fact. We must remember scriptures like Amos 5:8 and 9:6 which are verses which contain the literary phrase, 'Yahweh is His Name'.

"8 seek him that makes the Pleiades and Orion, and turns the shadow of death into the morning, and makes the day dark with night; that calls for the waters of the sea, and pours them out upon the face of the earth; (Yahweh is his name; )"

Therefore, we cannot select a Scripture to support our position and ignore the whole host of other Scriptures which bring out the Truth our Heavenly Father wishes us to understand.

You said:

I don't know this person, or author, but, "an external mark or brand" is God's expressed-will in the form of actions revealed to humanity. It's what God does.

If you do not know the author that's fine, but have you ever seen a lexical definition of the word "name" from either the Hebrew or the Greek languages? The Hebrew word for name is shem and is defined variously in the reference books as "an appellation, as a mark, a memorial of individuality, honor, authority, character." Some Hebrew lexicons trace the word to the root shamayim meaning "heavens," and this thought makes for further elucidation when we realize that our Almighty Heavenly Father has revealed His Name directly from heaven. It is not simply actions. As I know you have no doubt read the Torah, Yahweh stamps His Name on many of the Laws saying "I am Yahweh" as a sign of authenticity. Have you never read Genesis 2:19, regarding when Adam gave names to all the animals? The name is not simply actions as you have said. That would make little sense. I'll post the second part of this post momentarily.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

In that example: God is the judge, 'Your Honor" would be appropriate not their personal name. Beyond that?

First, you would need to show that the other names besides 'yahweh' are false. Second, you have not addressed the example I gave originally. If I avoid a car accident and breathlessly, in a near panic, say "Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God..." what is false about that? Am I not grateful to God? Third, I have very good reasons to think yahweh is a false name. So you would need to prove that it's true before criticisizing any other pronounciation.

Answer me this? If it's yahweh, then that means it's a four letter name with only two vowel sounds? Right? The 'Y' has the "ah" vowel? The first "H" has no vowel sound? The "W" ( assuming it's a W and not a V ) has the "eh" sound? The last letter "H" has no vowel sound? All correct? All good so far?

Can you find ANY example of a hebrew name where the middle "H" has no vowel sound? Spoiler: I looked and can't find any. This topic has come up before. There's 9 chapters of names in chronicles. Find me one where the middle 'H' is lacking a vowel sound? Does it exist? People skip over those geneologies. Thank God we have them. Now's an opportunity to use them.



Not unless there were actions associated with the name.



The universal God is not disregarded. That's the whole point of saying, "the God I worship would not reject based on which name is used." Not rejecting people based on the name used is what would describe a universal god.

Now, please don't think that I missed the insult, accusing me and people like me of idol worship. I simply don't care. An insult needs to have at least a shred of truth in order to sting.



I do not call my parents by their names and I love them. So that's a failed argument. I wonder if there will be any scripture in your post?

So I'll continue now with my post to dybmh, msg #19.

You said:

First, you would need to show that the other names besides 'yahweh' are false. Second, you have not addressed the example I gave originally. If I avoid a car accident and breathlessly, in a near panic, say "Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God..." what is false about that? Am I not grateful to God? Third, I have very good reasons to think yahweh is a false name. So you would need to prove that it's true before criticisizing any other pronounciation.

OK. Let's consider this logically. I cannot go through all the different names that people use to address Yahweh and show how they are false. It would take too long. However, we know that Yahweh has one Name from the Bible from some of the scriptures I have used. Wouldn't that be proof enough that these other names are false? If your name was John Abraham Smith, and there were claims that your name was something different, in other words they were names circulating around that were false, all you would have to do is produce verification that your name was in fact John Abraham Smith. You could do this by using a form of identification such as a passport. Well, our passport, our proof of ID for the Name of Yahweh, is the Bible. There we find the Name Yahweh in the Hebrew text.

I really cannot fathom though how you could ask to see proof of the Name Yahweh while simultaneously not having a problem using substitute and surrogate names for the Most High which have not been sanctioned for use by Yahweh. Wouldn't a better way of approaching the Bible be to find out how to pronounce the Name which is recorded in the Scriptures, than to seek 'alternatives'. I call that alternative worship.
In the Inspired Hebrew Scriptures the four letters of the Name appear as yothe hay waw hay in the text. One cannot escape this fact when we read the Hebrew text. The Name appears in the text frequently and each encounter impresses upon us the fact of its importance. It is therefore imperative that we transliterate the Name into English and every other language spoken by men so that ALL may know the personal Name of the one true Mighty One.

The term “transliterate” means “to write or spell (words etc.) in the characters of another alphabet that represent the same sounds”. Therefore the word means to carry across the sounds of words so that the same word will be recognized in the languages when spoken from one language to another.

If I avoid a car accident and breathlessly, in a near panic, say "Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God..." what is false about that? Am I not grateful to God?

What do the scriptures say? Zephaniah 3:9 says: "9 For then will I change to the peoples a pure language, that they may call upon the name of Yahweh, to serve him with one consent." I have never used the term G-d, not absent-mindedly, not ever. I have always used the term Yahweh. Yahweh wants a pure language. What does that mean to you? It to me includes not using surrogate terms to address Yahweh. Are you grateful to Yahweh? Then prove it to Him by addressing Him by His Name. Perhaps you are trying to get me to compromise my position and come to suggest that using other terms to address Yahweh is acceptable in certain instances, but such compromise would be wrong. As I said, once we know better, once we know the difference between right and wrong, we have to choose the right, or else we will be held accountable. If one does thank 'G-d', then they should repent, and say I am sorry Yahweh and then thank Yahweh. You may not agree. You do not have to. But from the Bible, the message has always been direct your worship to Yahweh. You may not know this, but even the term G-d has been suggested to trace back etymologically to that of a molten image (1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/God - Wikisource, the free online library). Do you think Yahweh is pleased with that? I sure don't. Maybe you don't have a problem using a word associated with a molten image to address the one and only Living Elohim. Personally, I would fear to use such terms. Remember, the fear of Yahweh is the beginning of knowledge we read in the Book of Proverbs.

You said:

Answer me this? If it's yahweh, then that means it's a four letter name with only two vowel sounds? Right? The 'Y' has the "ah" vowel? The first "H" has no vowel sound? The "W" ( assuming it's a W and not a V ) has the "eh" sound? The last letter "H" has no vowel sound? All correct? All good so far?

Ever read A Beginner's Handbook to Biblical Hebrew, Marks and Rogers, Abingdon Press, 1958? If we have established that the three letters (one of them is used twice) found in the Heavenly Father's Name are vowels, we shall return to the texts to determine what value they would have in the English language. The י (yothe) is the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet and has the vowel sound of a long I (pronounced like a long E as in the word machine). The ה (hay) has the vowel sound of an A (aw or ah). The ו (waw) has the vowel sound of a long U. The ה (hay) standing at the end of a masculine name has the vowel sound of short E. The Hebrew long A sound (pronounced aw) is a feminine ending at the end of a name.

Now if we combine these letters we have the English word IAUE. Pronounce them slowly and then rapidly. You will discover you are saying Yahweh.

Even treating the Sacred Name as consonants will yield the same pronunciation which if you like I can explain later. I would like to point out that the Hebrew letter that is pronounced V is ב. This letter does not appear in the Name of the Heavenly Father as you can plainly see. I just want to reiterate that the Sacred Name could not be transliterated as YHVH - unless you accept the V as standing for the Latin U. The W is merely double U or long U as a consonant. This was precisely the intention of the grammarian who began this innovation. It has only been since the 1600's that this misunderstanding has existed, since it was after that time that V became a consonant.

Further, I cannot understand how people can ignore all the reputable encycopedia's that state without reservation that the best transliteration of the four letters of the Tetragrammaton should be rendered "Yahweh". Take for example the Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th edition, which has an excellent entry concerning the Name Yahweh. If you don't want to use the Name Yahweh you'll find excuses not to use it. But the truth doesn't change and we will be judged by what we know. Those that don't know the truth will still be punished, but to a lesser extent than those who know and didn't act upon it (Luke 12:48).

You said:

The universal God is not disregarded. That's the whole point of saying, "the God I worship would not reject based on which name is used." Not rejecting people based on the name used is what would describe a universal god.

Perhaps I could have used a better term. I used the term universal because Yahweh rules over this universe. That was what I meant by universal. I do not subscribe to pantheism and I firmly believe that a Creator who created this entire universe absolutely would want to be addressed by His Name, especially if He has revealed it to His people.

You said:

Now, please don't think that I missed the insult, accusing me and people like me of idol worship. I simply don't care. An insult needs to have at least a shred of truth in order to sting.

I have the tendency to be quite blunt sometimes and offend in the way I put things, but that's simply because I feel very strongly about using Yahweh's Name and yes, I do consider using other names to address Yahweh as the sort of worship Israel and Judah were guilty of before they went in to captivity, each with their own version of worship, calling on the names of their mighty ones rather than upon Yahweh.

I do not call my parents by their names and I love them. So that's a failed argument. I wonder if there will be any scripture in your post?

I also call my parents mum, and dad. My grandparents, grandpa and grandma. However, it's not a failed argument. If my mum or dad expressed they wanted me to call them by their names, I would. Yahweh has expressed in His Word that it is His Will that we call upon His Name. Do we want a close personal relationship with Yahweh, or don't we. If we don't, then sure, substitute His Name, but just know that Yahweh is not pleased with those who do this.

You asked if there will be more scripture in my posts, so I put forth the following questions to you with the answers contained in the citations if you decide to look it up.

1. Does our Heavenly Father tell us that this Name, which He calls Himself, is to be used forever? See Exodus 3:15
2. Does He tell us that this personal Name is to be His memorial? (This is how He wishes to be remembered by all people. A memorial is usually cut in stone.) Exodus 3:15, along with Hosea 12:5
3. Does Almighty Yahweh tell us that we may find protection from the imminent tribulation by trusting in the Sacred Name? Proverbs 18:10 and Malachi 3:16-18 (An all-powerful, protecting Mighty One is certainly superior security than trying to provide an escape or shelter for ourselves.)
4. Will the Sacred Name mean salvation? Joel 2:32 and Romans 10:12-16.
5. Will the Sacred Name mean an answer to prayer? Psalm 91:14-16, Isaiah 58:9 and Zechariah 13:9.

I mean, I could go on and on with scriptural references. The Bible does not support substituting His Name. It supports use of His Name.

Anyway, I'll leave it there for now and I'll respond to your other post hopefully later in the week when I have time.

 

[dybmh]

Assemblies of Yahweh

What is your official title in the Assemblies of Yahweh? What is your role? Your position? Are you a congregant, a leader, a minister, pastor, teacher, prophet, oracle, founder?

Yahweh would be willing to overlook infractions against His Law

The reason I ask is because, as I showed you repeatedly, there is no law to use a specific name. And you seem to be creating your own version of God's law. I'd like to know what authority is being used to write new laws and put God's name on them.

If it's not you, is there a leader, minister, pastor, teacher, prophet, oracle, founder of the Assemblies of Yahweh who, in your opinion, has authority to write laws and claim they are from God?

The term Yahweh of Hosts (Yahweh Tzevaot or Sebaoth) is similar to the other titles

Not true. I gave you 5 verses from both Isaiah and Jeremiah which literally state YHVH-Tzvaohot is God's name. Literally. It's written. why are you ignoring scripture?

What do we know about how the New Testament was scribed? We only have copies of other copies. The Greek language is not a holy language. The stand taken by the Assemblies of Yahweh is that the New Testament was inspired in Hebrew and Aramaic

what do we know? it's known that kyrios was considered a divine name and was omitted from the text because the authors believed that the greek language was indeed holy. Not just kyrios, but theos, Jesus, sometimes Mary, the holy ghost... sometimes all of these were omitted because the original authors thought it was holy. That would indicate the text was originally written in greek. Judaizers were demonized, hebrew would not have been considered holy by the authors of the NT.

Beyond that, your standards seem to be extremely low for what you consider true. You're taking a stand? based on what? I read your paragraphs regarding this, and there was not a single reason to consider the NT to be written in Hebrew or Aramaic. Below is the only quote I could salvage from it.

we must base all doctrine on the Old Testament.

Since you or your community are writing a new law, claiming that a specific name must be used, and you are ignoring 5 verses which explicitly and literally say YHVH-Tzvahoht is a divine name, this is... um.... dishonest, deluded, deceptive, down-right-false.

Clearly you do not base doctrine on the OT.

The very fact that the Messiah's Name was Yahshua meaning "Yahweh is salvation" should be all the evidence you need to see that Yahshua used the Name Yahweh and taught His disciples to also.

too bad that's not written anywhere. it would have been the first true statement in the conversation.

Jesus taught to pray to The Father. In Hebrew that would be Abbah. On the cross Jesus cried out Eli, Eli! not yaweh. If the authors of the nt wanted to use hebrew, they clearly could have, because they included that bit from psalm 22.

what you should be noticing right now, is I am repeatedly and consistently backing up what I am writing with scripture.

Hosea 12:5?

irrelevant. wrong name. I brought 5 verses which explicitly and literally say YHVH-Tzvahoht is a divine name. You are manufacturng a law that does not exist. Hosea 12:5 doesn't say YHVH is the only name which is accepted. Hosea 12:5 doesn't say YHVH-Tzvahoht is not a divine name. Hosea 12:5 is irrelevant.

We must remember scriptures like Amos 5:8 and 9:6 which are verses which contain the literary phrase, 'Yahweh is His Name'.

We must remember 5 verses which explicitly and literally say YHVH-Tzvahoht is a divine name. Guess what? Multiple names are acceptable.

our Almighty Heavenly Father has revealed His Name directly from heaven. It is not simply actions.

My position is, it is not simple. It can mean multiple things. Regardless, each and every word comes from the heavens. Each name comes from the heavens. None of this states it's a law to use only one name.

we know that Yahweh has one Name from the Bible from some of the scriptures I have used.

I brought 5 verses which explicitly and literally say YHVH-Tzvahoht is a divine name. You are manufacturng a law that does not exist.

I really cannot fathom though how you could ask to see proof of the Name Yahweh while simultaneously not having a problem using substitute and surrogate names for the Most High which have not been sanctioned for use by Yahweh.

No. I'm asking you to prove that your chosen pronounciation is correct. You have chosen yahweh. Not Yoowee, Yiwoo, Yewah, Yawah. You're assuming that other names are wrong, but you don't seem to have any reasons for this. So, in order to make a claim a person MUST say Yahweh, lacking anything in scripture, you need to show at least that Yehovah is wrong.

And you still need to show that substitue names are not sanctioned. I won't hold my breath.

Zephaniah 3:9 says: "9 For then will I change to the peoples a pure language, that they may call upon the name of Yahweh, to serve him with one consent." I have never used the term G-d, not absent-mindedly, not ever. I have always used the term Yahweh. Yahweh wants a pure language. What does that mean to you?

It means what it says. The prophecy hasn't happened yet, so it's irrelevant. And even when it happens it does not prohibit using other names.

Further, I cannot understand how people can ignore all the reputable encycopedia'

I asked you to locate any hebrew name where the interior H is unvoweled. I knew you couldn't find one. You probably can't read hebrew, right? I cannot fathom the arrogance, the sheer hubris, which possesses someone to make assertions about a language they cannot read. Oh wait! I can fathom it, because the bible teaches about this sort of thing.

If you don't know the language, I think it would be good to learn it and come back.

I firmly believe that a Creator who created this entire universe absolutely would want to be addressed by His Name, especially if He has revealed it to His people.

Multiple names were revealed.

I feel very strongly about using Yahweh's Name

No ones stopping you.

I do consider using other names to address Yahweh as the sort of worship Israel and Judah were guilty of before they went in to captivity

So what? You don't have scripture to back this up. I firmly believe that Isaiah wrote about people who fabricate laws and assert them as coming from God.

​

And their land is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made;​

You are fabricating a law and manufacturing a name of God. It has clearly become an idol for you. Nice Job!

Yahweh has expressed in His Word that it is His Will that we call upon His Name

There are multiple names. I brought 5 verses which explicitly and literally say YHVH-Tzvahoht is a divine name. You are manufacturng a law that does not exist.

Does our Heavenly Father tell us that this Name, which He calls Himself, is to be used forever? See Exodus 3:15

It doesn't say the other names are not acceptable.

Does He tell us that this personal Name is to be His memorial? (This is how He wishes to be remembered by all people. A memorial is usually cut in stone.) Exodus 3:15, along with Hosea 12:5

It doesn't say the other names are not acceptable.

Does Almighty Yahweh tell us that we may find protection from the imminent tribulation by trusting in the Sacred Name? Proverbs 18:10 and Malachi 3:16-18 (An all-powerful, protecting Mighty One is certainly superior security than trying to provide an escape or shelter for ourselves.)

It doesn't say the other names are not acceptable.

Will the Sacred Name mean salvation? Joel 2:32

It doesn't say the other names are not acceptable.

Will the Sacred Name mean an answer to prayer? Psalm 91:14-16, Isaiah 58:9 and Zechariah 13:9.

It doesn't say the other names are not acceptable.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

The answer to your challenge is Exodus 20:7. Not using the name in vain requires having a subsititute for mundane purposes.

And you need to prove that yahweh is correct pronounciation or else your entire argument is a failure. I've shown you examples of other names that are acceptable in prayer. In Exodus 3, multiple names are given. So far I am winning this argument simply because I have brought scripture making my point, and so far all you have brought is Acts 17 and an asumption that the name yahweh must have been removed.



I agree with what you're saying in principle, but you have brought no scripture saying, "Only pray using the name yahweh." Without that, then you are praying the way you want to pray, and criticising others for not doing it like you want to do it. These rules of worship you are putting forward are not coming from scripture. It's just how you want it to be. Or your community, or your preacher, or whomever.

And there's still the problem of proving that 'yahweh' is correct.



I'm not ignoring any of them. You seem to be ignoring psalm 145 and 51, and I ca find you several others that don't use the four letter name. The whole book of Esther doesn't use the four letter name. Did you know that? Was Mordechai wrong? Didn't God save the Jewish people?



So what? The other name worked. And that doesn't explain Psalm 145. Definitely not filthy in that one.



All this means is that different names are appropriate at different times. Again, trying to force a specific single name is not scriptural.




3 names were given in Exodus 3. I am not sure if there are any verses which explicitly say Elohim is a name. But King David uses it as a name and has positive results. I'm sure I can find more examples.



The verse from isaiah is not true. Your thoughts are like God's thoughts? What you imagine as just and unjust is incumbent on God? What's going on here? Who is in control? You or God?




All I see here is you pretending to be a god and telling me what to do like your underling. You speak like you have some sort of private arcane knowledge of what God wants, but cannot produce anything written to confirm it.

Hi dybmh. Good afternoon. You said in response to my challenge to you to give me a scripture that says we are to substitute the Name:

The answer to your challenge is Exodus 20:7. Not using the name in vain requires having a subsititute for mundane purposes.

That simply is not true.

Let's read Exodus 20:7, it reads:
"7 You shall not make wrong use of the Name of Yahweh your Elohim; for Yahweh will not leave unpunished the man who misuses His Name." (Sacred Scriptures Bethel Edition)

You have taken this commandment and changed it to say, "You shall not use the Name of Yahweh your Elohim; for Yahweh will not leave unpunished the man who uses His Name".

That's not what the scripture says. I shouldn't have to point out that misusing, and using the Name are two completely different things. Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to substitute His Name. As a matter of fact, Yahweh prohibits using other names to address Him in His Law in Exodus 23:13 and other places. Those who substitute His Name are not directing their worship to Him and as a result are even violating the first commandment.

You said:

So far I am winning this argument

Opinions can certainly be a funny thing.

I agree with what you're saying in principle, but you have brought no scripture saying, "Only pray using the name yahweh." Without that, then you are praying the way you want to pray, and criticising others for not doing it like you want to do it. These rules of worship you are putting forward are not coming from scripture. It's just how you want it to be. Or your community, or your preacher, or whomever.

If you think I am making things up, then you haven't been paying attention to all the scriptures I have used which clearly show Yahweh's Name is not to be substituted. These aren't things I have made up. All this is coming from the Bible. The Bible is pro-Name, when you take a stance against Yahweh's Name you become anti-Bible. The only scripture you have used to support not pronouncing the Name comes from a very poor understanding of the third commandment, but by analyzing the text such an argument simply crumbles in to thin air. Question: Does the Almighty declare that He will sanctify (set apart for holiness) His great Name, which Israel has profaned, in the last days? Note that Yahshua tells us to pray for such sanctification. See Matthew 6:9 and Ezekiel 36:20-23 for the answers.

And there's still the problem of proving that 'yahweh' is correct.

What would convince you? Would anything convince you? The Name Yahweh is supported by the most reputable encyclopedias' including the encyclopedia Judaica and can be proven by simply going in to the Hebrew text and treating the Tetragrammaton as vowels or even consonants. Therefore I would suggest the problem is actually your problem for not accepting the evidence. They are other archaeological finds such as the Moabite stone which prove Yahweh's name was in use and known in ancient times. Just like the term HalleluYah means Praise (Hallel) Yahweh (Yah) so the Name can even be seen in this expression which is known in most languages of the world.

I'm not ignoring any of them. You seem to be ignoring psalm 145 and 51, and I ca find you several others that don't use the four letter name. The whole book of Esther doesn't use the four letter name. Did you know that? Was Mordechai wrong? Didn't God save the Jewish people?

Most Psalms contain the Name Yahweh, or the abbreviated form Yah. I'm not ignoring Psalm 145. It uses the Name Yahweh. The Book of Esther doesn't contain the Name Yahweh but it does appear in acrostics several times in that book. It was Yahweh who saved the Jewish people.

You said:

Again, trying to force a specific single name is not scriptural.

Really? Is the Law scriptural? See Exodus 23:13.

You said:

3 names were given in Exodus 3.

Yahweh has one Name. In Exodus 3:15, Yahweh mentions His Name to Moses:
"15 And Elohim said moreover to Moses, In this manner shall you say to the children of Israel, Yahweh, the Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations."

Elohim is a title. It means Strong One.

You said:

The verse from isaiah is not true. Your thoughts are like God's thoughts? What you imagine as just and unjust is incumbent on God? What's going on here? Who is in control? You or God?

Oh I agree that Yahweh thinks on a higher plane than man thinks. He has revealed His Higher thoughts in His Word and we can learn to think like Yahweh by reading His Word, but even in doing so, our thinking capacity will never be as high as Yahweh's. My problem with what you said is that you said the following:

The Almighty can choose to respect or not to respect whomever, whenever, for any reason, and for no reason. Isaiah knows. 55:8

I said it before and I'll say it again. Yahweh has respect to those who are lowly (Psalm 138:6), those who are just, those who keep His commandments (Leviticus 26:8-10). He doesn't have respect to just anyone for no reason whatsoever (2 Chronicles 19:7). That would be unjust and Yahweh is not an unjust Mighty One.

All I see here is you pretending to be a god and telling me what to do like your underling. You speak like you have some sort of private arcane knowledge of what God wants, but cannot produce anything written to confirm it.

I have produced plenty of scriptures that show Yahweh's Name is important. You have yet to produce one scripture that says it isn't. I'm not pretending to be a mighty one. I'm just saying 'thus says Yahweh'. If you choose not to accept the Word that's up to you, but you will be held accountable for it. The EliYah message (the name EliYah means My Mighty One is Yah) will be the last message preached on this earth just prior to the Savior's return in Malachi 4:5-6.

 

[dybmh]

Let's read Exodus 20:7, it reads:
"7 You shall not make wrong use of the Name of Yahweh your Elohim; for Yahweh will not leave unpunished the man who misuses His Name." (Sacred Scriptures Bethel Edition)

Flawed translation. Typical.

Opinions can certainly be a funny thing.

In this context. The one who denies scripture loses. The one who repeatedly denies scripture is repeatedly losing.

If you think I am making things up,

You are claiming a law exists in the name of God which prohibits using multiple different names. That law is manufactured. You have not given the name of the authority which is pretending to be the Lord. Maybe you're making it up, or you are the blind following the blind.

​

את כל־הדבר אשר אנכי מצוה אתכם אתו תשמרו לעשות לא־תסף עליו ולא תגרע ממנו׃​

​

What ever I command you, take care to do it; you shall not add to it, nor diminish from it.​

then you haven't been paying attention to all the scriptures

I brought 5 verses which explicitly and literally say YHVH-Tzvahoht is a divine name. You are manufacturing a law that does not exist.
I brought multiple examples showing God responds and accepts these different names INCLUDING when Jesus prayed on the cross.

Your only options are:

1. step back from your assertions about the divine names eventhough it probably discredits your institution
2. continue to ignore scripture
3. accept that Jesus broke the law on the cross

What would convince you?

God. The one and only, the most high. Not you nor any assembly legion.

Most Psalms contain the Name Yahweh,

It doesn't say the other names are not acceptable.

Really? Is the Law scriptural? See Exodus 23:13.

I said: "Again, trying to force a specific single name is not scriptural."

​

ובכל אשר־אמרתי אליכם תשמרו ושם אלהים אחרים לא תזכירו לא ישמע על־פיך׃​

​

And be mindful of all the things that I have said to you; and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard from your mouth.​

This is not saying that other names revealed by God are not acceptable. Clearly they are, read Genesis 18. Oh yeah, you can't read Hebrew.

Yahweh has one Name. In Exodus 3:15, Yahweh mentions His Name to Moses:

That's not what scripture says, that is adding. Adding is prohibited.

"15 And Elohim said moreover to Moses, In this manner shall you say to the children of Israel, Yahweh, the Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations."

Buzzzzzzzz! wrong translation. The name Elohim does not exist in this verse. It doesn't say "THE Elohim". You and yours are rewriting your own scripture. And you are ignoring the words following it.

ויאמר עוד אלהים אל־משה כה תאמר אל־בני ישראל יהוה אלהי אבתיכם אלהי אברהם אלהי יצחק ואלהי יעקב שלחני אליכם זה־שמי לעלם וזה זכרי לדר דר׃​

​

And God said moreover to Moses, Thus shall you say to the people of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you; this is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.​

He has revealed His Higher thoughts in His Word

You are not God's word. Your assembly congregation, does not possess God's word. Neither you nor yours are authors of God's word.

And it's obvious something is wrong, when someone is asked their title and authority but they cannot or will not answer.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Yahweh has respect to those who are lowly

And, God is far from the haughty. You cropped out the remainder of the verse. Typical. Lying by omission.

כי־רם יהוה ושפל יראה וגבה ממרחק יידע׃​

Though the Lord is high, he regards the lowly; but the arrogant he knows from far away.​

Arrogant = "I know the name, I know the name! Listen to me! Look here, Look here. They don't know the name."

Like I said, claiming to know the-name, indicates ignorance of the-name. Those who do this are automatically far from God. You quoted the verse. Denying it is expected, but virtually impossible to do earnestly.

those who are just, those who keep His commandments

Those who are just, do not manufacture commandments for the purpose of promoting their assembly legion.

He doesn't have respect to just anyone for no reason whatsoever (2 Chronicles 19:7).

God gets to choose. The one who makes a law can make an exception. I'll restate: You and yours do not make the law.

That would be unjust and Yahweh is not an unjust Mighty One.

God gets to choose. The one who makes a law can make an exception. I'll restate: You and yours do not make the law. You are not capable of evaluating what is just and unjust for God. That would make you into a god. Are you a god? Are you finite, limited, and flesh and blood? Are you a sinner?

​

1 John 1:8​

​

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.​

The truth is missing.

I understand that it probably feels good, to be the one judging. Perhaps there's a voice inside you that is judging, and claiming authority... but you have no authority here.

I have produced plenty of scriptures that show Yahweh's Name is important.

No one's saying they're not important. There's multiple names. There's no law prohibiting it. And there's good reasons ( plural ) to dismiss your chosen version. That means, you are probably breaking your own law by using a false name.