What does it mean to be a 'Jew'?

[Messianic Israelite]

For those who do not know, I'm a member of the Assemblies of Yahweh (Bethel PA) and what got me thinking about this subject was a conversation I was having on another thread about the Name Yahweh. In my faith we firmly believe in not substituting the Name, but restoring it to it's rightful place. This is in fact the EliYah message, that Yahweh is our Mighty One. You'll know about what is prophesied about a EliYah returning in the end times in Malachi 4:4-6. But in my faith we believe that the word 'Jew' doesn't simply mean 'praise', or 'he shall praise or be praised' but rather 'one who praises Yahweh'. As a result, I feel it is important to point out that by substituting the Name of Yahweh, it would indicate you are not fulfilling your own name. The word for Jew is Yehudi (Yehudim, plural) a word contracted and derived from Yehudah or Yahhudeh (Judah). When the progenitor of the Jewish people was born, his mother said "...This time will I praise Yahweh: therefore she called his name Judah...." (Genesis 29:35). The place where 'The L-RD' appears in all caps is where the Name appears. I find it ironic then that they are a number of Jews who seem to be the most fierce opposers of using the Name of Yahweh and would rather substitute it. Just a thought I had and thought I'd share.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I find it ironic then that they are a number of Jews who seem to be the most fierce opposers of using the Name of Yahweh

I find it embarrassing that others fetishize it.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

I find it embarrassing that others fetishize it.

Hi Jayhawker Soule. Good evening. I hope you are well. Do you have anyone in mind? Fetishize means to have an excessive and irrational commitment to (something). I would say that I am more acceptably so embarrassed by people who fetishize the substituting of His Name, which is wrong, especially because the practice is completely unscriptural. The practice of nominal religion for over 2,000 years has been to substitute a different term for the Name that was inspired to be recorded in the sacred Scriptures. Too frequently these substitute names have been taken from the mighty ones of the nations. Consequently, the sacred Scriptures is very plain in its insistence that the Name of the Almighty Father in heaven and His Son is very important. Modern scholarship has confidently declared that the Name of the Almighty is Yahweh. Here is prophecy fulfilled as knowledge is restored and increased in our time (Daniel 12:4).

 

[Harel13]

Sometimes people forget that one of Esau's wives was called Judith/Yehudit years before Judah was born. Judah may have been named in a manner of thanking God, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the word itself or the root was always taken to be so.

 

[rosends]

Sometimes people forget that one of Esau's wives was called Judith/Yehudit years before Judah was born. Judah may have been named in a manner of thanking God, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the word itself or the root was always taken to be so.

Though check out Rashi on 36:2
הִיא יְהוּדִית, וְהוּא כִנָּה שְׁמָהּ יְהוּדִית לוֹמַר שֶׁהִיא כּוֹפֶרֶת בַּעֲ"זָ כְּדֵי לְהַטְעוֹת אֶת אָבִיו

(and the Birchat Asher on Rashi's comment)

 

[shunyadragon]

Hi Jayhawker Soule. Good evening. I hope you are well. Do you have anyone in mind? Fetishize means to have an excessive and irrational commitment to (something). I would say that I am more acceptably so embarrassed by people who fetishize the substituting of His Name, which is wrong, especially because the practice is completely unscriptural. The practice of nominal religion for over 2,000 years has been to substitute a different term for the Name that was inspired to be recorded in the sacred Scriptures. Too frequently these substitute names have been taken from the mighty ones of the nations. Consequently, the sacred Scriptures is very plain in its insistence that the Name of the Almighty Father in heaven and His Son is very important. Modern scholarship has confidently declared that the Name of the Almighty is Yahweh. Here is prophecy fulfilled as knowledge is restored and increased in our time (Daniel 12:4).

I believe your view would Fetishize having an excessive and irrational commitment to one of the names of God(s) in the OT. I believe your view is selective and narrow and not inclusive.

God is God regardless of what fallible humans choose to call God IF God is truly the Omnipotent, All-Powerful All-Knowing Universal God.

The broader concept of God by many names from the fallible human perspective in history is more real in terms of the universal human view of God in the nature of our existence.

 

[Link]

Peace,

My view, some titles of God are more useful then others depending on the context.

"O light O Holy" for example in Du'a Kumail, is more powerful then just saying "O God".

God has been used the most in Quran for the reason that it contains the notion of God's Oneness and the religion (we have to worship God). The second most used title in Quran is "Exalted" (Ali), but exalted is shared between God and his chosen. The reason God uses despite "God" being the highest type of exalted, is to say, exalt by exalted ones as their right is derived from my right. The word "atheem" usually in Quran comes after that, and it means great, and so why use a term less then both "God" and "Exalted" and means the same thing? It's because to honor believers is part of honoring God and who dishonors believers dishonors God. Their right is derived from God and his exalted chosen, and they are not gods or exalted but they are great. And we have to see it that way.

In Salah, Ruku (bowing) comes before Sujood. Ruku is about respect towards God that you deem his morality the truth, that at the very least, you don't insult him but believe in his greatness. It's prerequisite to Sujood.

Ruku we say "Glory to the Lord of the great" or "Glory to the great Lord" (can be translated either way).

Sujood we say "Glory to the Lord of the highest" or "Glory to the highest Lord"

Sujood is about drawing close to God while ruku is about preparing one heart to that.

That means believers ought to be respected before we think we can draw close to God. Those who disrespect the sanctity of believers, will be closed the gateways towards God.

To draw close through Mohammad (s) and his family (a), therefore, one must honor believers before and not violate their sanctity. If he does, he will deprive the companionship in the journey of Mohammad (s) and his family (a).


This is just contextualizing some of the titles "Allah" "Ali" "Atheem"

But because Allah is used to often, different contexts will need different titles. For example "The Peace, the Security Giver, The Preserver..." this appears once in Quran, but the context of it makes it ultra eloquent. And it has wisdom of the religion too, but a different context (the issue of security and peace on earth through worshiping God).

"God is the light of the heavens and earth", appears once in Quran, but it's ultra important. The reality that God is light is important, the light of all light.

There is no one title better than all titles in all context.

Ismal Atham is about God's word of light and refers to Imam or Ahlulbayt (a).

 

[dybmh]

I find it ironic then that they are a number of Jews who seem to be the most fierce opposers of using the Name of Yahweh and would rather substitute it.

I think this is one of those things where claiming knowledge of the name indicates ignorance of the name.

 

[Ebionite]

This time will I praise Yahweh: therefore she called his name Judah...." (Genesis 29:35).

O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my Elah: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Daniel 9:19

Tziyown, city of David: The Psalms have by far the most verses which praise YHWH. For example:

I will praise YHWH according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of YHWH most high.
Psalms 7:17

People: YHWH from YHWDH

 

[Brickjectivity]

I enjoy trying to figure out license plates. In the USA we have a lot of automobiles. You almost cannot function here if you don't have access to one, and so there are millions of license plates. Most of these are automatically assigned and have no readable quality. They will have an encoding method used by the particular state (one of fifty states), and it will usually be several random letters followed by several random digits. It usually is something like: ABA-24876, however registrants in many states may pay an extra fee to apply for a custom unique plate assignment. People who do this often try to cram words, names or an entire phrase into the plate using clever schemes such as: "ITSATRP," "STAYPUFT," "5PO1LED," and "JYZ TOY."

I can't help thinking of Hebrew writing as something like pages full of these custom license plates, since it doesn't use vowels. I am aware that modern Hebrew can have vowel marks added, but these aren't required. A person should be able to read without them. "L O L"

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Sometimes people forget that one of Esau's wives was called Judith/Yehudit years before Judah was born. Judah may have been named in a manner of thanking God, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the word itself or the root was always taken to be so.

Hi Harel13. Good evening. Good point. I assume that Judith may have been a religious person who knew at least some of the truth.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

I believe your view would Fetishize having an excessive and irrational commitment to one of the names of God(s) in the OT. I believe your view is selective and narrow and not inclusive.

God is God regardless of what fallible humans choose to call God IF God is truly the Omnipotent, All-Powerful All-Knowing Universal God.

The broader concept of God by many names from the fallible human perspective in history is more real in terms of the universal human view of God in the nature of our existence.

Hi Shunyadragon. Good evening. Perhaps you do find my view 'narrow', but you seem to forget that Yahshua our Savior called the true path a narrow way. He said "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to." (Luke 13:24). Now consider what our Savior said in relation to what you have just said, when you said 'I believe your view is selective and narrow and not inclusive.' That is the Bible in a nutshell. You may choose to reject the Name of Yahweh because of your own preferences. When we come to Yahweh, we put aside our preferences to take up Yahweh's preferences and He wants us to praise His Name, to worship Him by His Name and to witness His glorious Name to others. But if you claim to follow Yahshua, what did Yahshua say: "I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." Unconverted people hate the Name of Yahweh.

I love Yahweh's Name. I came to love it more and more up to my baptism and beyond that. His Name is based on the root of the word for eternity and it is clear to me that those who love Yahweh and His Name, have a love for eternal life. How many people in Chr-stianity claim to love the Almighty, yet they do not even know, use or regard His Name? Yet songs like '10,000 Reasons' clearly express that glorifying Yahweh's Name is important, yet Chr-stians don't know the words they are even singing. Would you marry someone who you didn't even know their name? The New Testament speaks of the marriage supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9). In the same way, if we want to enter a close communion with Yahweh, we have to address Him by His Name. His Law tells us that Yahweh wants us to exclusively use His Name and not the names of the mighty ones to address Him. All the elohim of the peoples are idols and actually, it seems that Yahweh likens the common names used to address other mighty ones as swear words (Exodus 23:13), which should be avoided. Something repulsive. Have you never read Hosea 2:17? We cannot use simply common, pagan terms to address the only Living and True Elohim, Yahweh. He deserves pure worship. The best we can possibly offer to Him should be His and that means coming before Him in Truth. Isn't that why the sacrifices had to be perfect. Our worship must be perfect. We must inspect our worship to ensure that it appears exactly the way Yahweh wants it or else we will be rejected. Not only will our sacrifice we offer be rejected, but we will too. If we ourselves are blind, then how can we offer ourselves to Yahweh as a suitable sacrifice (Malachi 1:8)? Each one of us is a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1).

If you say Yahweh is Omnipotent, All-Powerful and All-knowing, as you say He is, why don't you fear the fact that you use inferior terms which He has not sanctioned for use, to address the only Living and True Elohim? I fear Yahweh. I would fear to use a different term to address Yahweh now that I know His Name. How would you know the difference between those that speak error and those that speak truth? They are many people using all sorts of names for the Almighty. Yahweh has narrowed down our choices of choosing the correct faith by revealing His personal Name. Although all Bible teachers and professors will confirm the fact that the Tetragrammaton is found in the Inspired Scriptures and that it should be pronounced Yahweh, they will almost without exception reject the necessity for its exclusive use in our worship, which is wrong. The abbreviated form Yah is affixed to words to form proper nouns throughout the Bible such as Isaiah (IsaYah), Jeremiah (JeremeYah), Zephaniah (ZephanYah) and Zechariah (ZecharYah). Would you believe that you have unknowingly used the Sacred Names all your life in the names of these prophets? Clearly, Yahweh's Name is important in the Bible. You are of the opinion that Yahweh's Name doesn't matter, but if you have paid attention to the words you read in the Bible, you will find that the Name is of great importance to Yahweh. You wouldn't like it if I started calling you by something that wasn't your name, and neither does Yahweh. Yahweh has a Name and He has revealed that Name to us and He wants us to use it (Isaiah 55:6). We should call upon Yahweh before it is too late.

 

[dybmh]

When we come to Yahweh, we put aside our preferences to take up Yahweh's preferences and He wants us to praise His Name, to worship Him by His Name and to witness His glorious Name to others.

The God I worship would never reject based on which name is used.

If I narrowly miss getting into a car accident and honestly express gratitude, "Thank you God, Thank you God, Thank you God, etc.."

Do you think this praise is rejected?

 

[Messianic Israelite]

The God I worship would never reject based on which name is used.

If I narrowly miss getting into a car accident and honestly express gratitude, "Thank you God, Thank you God, Thank you God, etc.."

Do you honestly think this praise is rejected?

Hi dybmh. Good evening. Good to hear from you. What do the scriptures say?

"29 Being then the offspring of Elohim, we ought not to think that the Majesty On High is like gold, or silver, or stone, carved by art and device of man. 30 The times of ignorance therefore Elohim overlooked; but now he commands men that they should all everywhere repent" (Acts 17:29-30).

It says that Yahweh was willing to overlook those who worshiped in ignorance, but now with the Truth revealed we have to accept it and we will be judged if we do not accept it. There is a certain way how we must worship Yahweh. Should I remind you of Uzziah, the King of Judah? Do you remember how he tried to offer incense to Yahweh which was not lawful for him to do. He became arrogant in thinking that he could offer worship to Yahweh the way he pleased, and Yahweh struck him with leprosy and he was thrust out of the House of Yahweh. You might say that a king should be able to offer incense to Yahweh if he choose, but it wasn't lawful. Using a different Name to address Yahweh is not supported by the Scriptures. If we want to thank Yahweh, we thank Him by using His Name. Then we can be assured that our praise is sincere and Yahweh will have respect to it. Or what about Abel and Cain, two brothers, who worshipped Yahweh by bringing two different offerings. You might say that if Cain chose to bring a vegetable offering, he should still be accepted by Yahweh. That was his specialty, growing things. But he was rejected by Yahweh and became a murderer. Our worship is specific. We have to worship Yahweh in a specific way or else our worship will be rejected.

 

[dybmh]

Hi dybmh. Good evening. Good to hear from you.

Good evening to you as well.

What do the scriptures say?

Good idea, let's check.

29 Being then the offspring of Elohim, we ought not to think that the Majesty On High is like gold, or silver, or stone, carved by art and device of man. 30 The times of ignorance therefore Elohim overlooked; but now he commands men that they should all everywhere repent" (Acts 17:29-30).

Well. The scripture you brought does not use the name you have chosen, so that's a problem.

In greek it's Θεοῦ , and Θεὸς. Theos, basically. A generic word for divinity not a name.

Please consider Hannah in 1 Samuel 1, the quintessential example of prayer:

​

And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed to YHVH, and wept bitterly.​

​

And she vowed a vow, and said, YHVH-Tz'vahoht, if you will indeed look on the affliction of your maidservant, and remember me, and not forget your maidservant, but will give to your maidservant a male child, then I will give him to the Lord all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.​

​

And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the YHVH, that Eli observed her mouth.​

​

And Hanna spoke in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard; therefore Eli thought that she was drunk.​

​

...​

​

Then Eli answered and said, Go in peace; and Elohai-Yisrael grant you the petition that you have asked of him.​

​

...​

And it came to pass, in due course, that Hanna conceived and bore a son, and called his name Samuel, saying, Because I have asked him from YHVH.​

So, Hannah uses the name YHVH-Tz'vahoht. Eli uses the name Elohai-Yisrael. And the prayers were answered.

It's a much better example than Acts 17, don't you think?

Then there's Psalm 145. Arguably the 2nd best example of praise and prayer in scripture.

The Lord is near to all those who call upon him, to all who call upon him in truth.​

​

Notice. This is conditional on truth, not on which name is used. If the entire Psalm is read, King David describes precisely what it means to 'bless the holy name". It has nothing to do with consonants and vowels. It has everything to do with what God does. God's reputation.

And, if that's not enough, please consider the 10 commandments. Exodus 20:6

And showing mercy to thousands of those who love me, and keep my commandments.​

​

Notice, again, what are the conditions? Love and keep. Knowing how to pronounce the name is irrelevant.

It says that Yahweh was willing to overlook those who worshiped in ignorance, but now with the Truth revealed we have to accept it and we will be judged if we do not accept it.

Well yes and no. Acts 17 towards the end is about idol-worship. The sermon is inspired by an idol labeled 'unknown god'. The preacher uses this as the beginning of the sermon and tells them what is known about God; tells them God is not make of precious metals and stone. God is not an idol.

Naturally the preacher in Acts 17 wants to convince them also of the truth of Christ, but, nothing in the entire chapter supports this notion you have brought in this thread:

"If you're not using yahweh as the name of God, then it's not praise."

There is a certain way how we must worship Yahweh

Hannah knows what to do.
Eli knows what to do.
King David knows what to do.

None of it is bound to a specific pronounced name.

Hannah spoke in her heart and only her lips were moving.

Should I remind you of Uzziah, the King of Judah?

Yes, you most certainly should.

Do you remember how he tried to offer incense to Yahweh which was not lawful for him to do. He became arrogant in thinking that he could offer worship to Yahweh the way he pleased, and Yahweh struck him with leprosy and he was thrust out of the House of Yahweh. You might say that a king should be able to offer incense to Yahweh if he choose, but it wasn't lawful.

The story has nothing to do with divine names does it?

Using a different Name to address Yahweh is not supported by the Scriptures.

Not true. You have been given scripture which supports different names. Please forgive me, but, how well do you know the book of Psalms?

Perhaps one of the most important psalms in the whole book, 51. Are you claiming King David prayed in vain? The prophet Nathan says he was forgiven. Verse 3:

​

חנני אלהים כחסדך כרב רחמיך מחה פשעי׃​

​

Be gracious to me, O God, according to your loving kindness; according to the multitude of your mercies blot out my transgressions.​

​

That's NOT 'yahweh'.

If what you're saying is true, King David would not have been forgiven. 'yahweh', the name, does not exist in that Psalm. Verse 12:

​

לב טהור ברא־לי אלהים ורוח נכון חדש בקרבי׃​

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a constant spirit inside me.​

I repeat. That's NOT 'yahweh' either.

If what you're saying is true, King David would not have been forgiven. 'yahweh', the name, does not exist in that Psalm.

If we want to thank Yahweh, we thank Him by using His Name.

You can do whatever you want. But it's clear that multiple different names are acceptable.

Who told you that praise is unlawful using any other name? After reading the scripture I brought, isn't it clear I was right in my reply to this thread? Making claims like this indicates ignorance not knowledge?

If this is the same source that declares with certainty, 'yahweh' is the correct pronunciation, do you still trust them for accuracy? Clearly they do not know scripture.

Then we can be assured that our praise is sincere and Yahweh will have respect to it.

I find it repugnant to make a declaration like this. The Almighty can choose to respect or not to respect whomever, whenever, for any reason, and for no reason. Isaiah knows. 55:8

​

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord.​

You might say that if Cain chose to bring a vegetable offering, he should still be accepted by Yahweh. That was his specialty, growing things. But he was rejected by Yahweh and became a murderer. Our worship is specific. We have to worship Yahweh in a specific way or else our worship will be rejected.

Another story that has nothing to do with which name was used. The story tells you the difference between their offerings.

Abel brought the best of the flock.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Hi dybmh. You said the New Testament scripture I used does not use the Name Yahweh. I am well aware of that, however, Acts 17:30 addresses your point because it shows that Yahweh was willing to overlook ignorance in His worship when people didn't know better. I am coming from the perspective that ignorance *includes* not using the correct Name to worship Yahweh. Ignorance can include other things too regarding the worship of Yahweh such as not keeping all of the commandments. Further, no scripture in the New Testament uses the Sacred Name because undoubtedly this was removed by the translators over time. But they are scriptures which allude to the Name once appearing there such as in 2 Timothy 2:19. Whereas in scriptures such as Romans 10:12 which quote from Hebrew Scriptures which use the Name, the term 'Lord' is used in most translations, but the Name would have appeared in the originals i.e.

"12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Master is Sovereign of all, and is rich, to all that call on him: 13 for, whoever shall call on the name of Yahweh shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they should be sent? Even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!" (The Sacred Scriptures Bethel Edition)

This is a quote from Joel 2:32.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at with Hannah's prayer. It says in the passage that she prayed to Yahweh. Verse 11 says "11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O Yahweh of hosts...", thus she was praying to Yahweh. In the same verse she says: "remember me, and not forget your handmaid, but will give to your handmaid a male child, then I will give him to Yahweh all the days of his life, and no razor shall come upon his head." Her prayer was answered and she most definitely did pray to Yahweh.

Let's look at Psalm 145, which you quote. The Psalm says something along the lines of blessing or praising His Name. The word שֵׁם (šēm) name is used several times. "No certain etymology has been established for this root. The argument put forth by W. R. Smith (Kinship, 213) is preferred by some today. It derives šēm from the Arabic root wsʾm “to mark or brand,”"* hence an external mark to distinguish one thing or person from another. Yahweh's Name distinguishes from all the other names of the mighty ones of the world.

(*Jack B. Scott, “116 אָמַן,” ed. R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Chicago: Moody Press, 1999), 51.)

You quote from verse 18 which says: "18 Yahweh is near to all them that call upon him, To all that call upon him in truth." This supports use of the Name Yahweh. You cannot call upon Yahweh in truth if you are using a false name to address Him. Using the correct Name is necessary in order to call upon Him in truth. The term for truth is אֱמֶת (ʾĕmet) firmness, truth. If I was called as a witness at a trial and was told to tell the judge what I saw, and I used the wrong name of a person, I wouldn't be speaking truth.

You said:

King David describes precisely what it means to 'bless the holy name". It has nothing to do with consonants and vowels. It has everything to do with what God does. God's reputation.

I disagree. Our reputation is tied in with our names. I want to point that out to you. If your name was John Smith, people would know right away's whether you had a good reputation or not by your name. A name is how you distinguish the reputation of one person to another. You even said in a previous post "The G-d I worship would never reject based on which name is used." You all have your own little mighty ones that you worship in your own personal way, just like Israel worshiped the Baals and had their own little shrines, but the universal Mighty One Yahweh is disregarded. I don't call Yahweh my mighty one, I call Him the Mighty One.



You said:

And, if that's not enough, please consider the 10 commandments. Exodus 20:6

And showing mercy to thousands of those who love me, and keep my commandments.

Notice, again, what are the conditions? Love and keep. Knowing how to pronounce the name is irrelevant.

Even if you were to boil the Law down to those two commands, you would still be in violation. Loving Yahweh will mean we will use His Name. We won't substitute His Name. Do we know what love is? Love isn't telling Yahweh, I know you have a Name and it's Yahweh but I'm going to substitute your Name contrary to what you have said, and call you by the name and titles which I desire. That's not love. If I started calling you by a different name that wasn't your name, how would you feel? Yahweh has feelings and I have no idea why more people do not see things as plainly as I do. So I challenge you, show me the commandment in the Bible which tells us to substitute His Name.

The story has nothing to do with divine names does it?

The story of Uzziah is about the worship of Yahweh. We must worship Yahweh in the way that He wants, not in the way that we feel is acceptable. Therefore, the story may be related to using the Name of Yahweh, or any aspect of the worship of Yahweh, differentiating the worship of Yahweh between the way we want to worship Yahweh and the way Yahweh wants us to worship Him. Uzziah wasn't able to enter the House of Yahweh for the rest of his life because of his one decision to worship Yahweh the way he wanted to, with no regard to what Yahweh actually wanted.

In terms of Acts 17 that you mention, it says "23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, To an Unknown Mighty One. What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I set forth to you." In the same way, people that do not know or use the Name of Yahweh do not know who they are worshiping. When you start a relationship with someone, one of the first things you seek on finding out is their name. Yahweh has revealed His Name and those who wish to know Him will use it. Notice what Paul says in verse 23, saying, What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I set forth to you. Then Paul in verse 30 says "30 The times of ignorance therefore Elohim overlooked; but now he commands men that they should all everywhere repent" They weren't worshiping Yahweh properly, but they had an altar just in case they had missed a mighty one out of their worship and didn't want to incur His wrath. Paul was saying the one they had missed was Yahweh.

In terms of Psalm 51 not mentioning the Name, it's true, it doesn't. However, why ignore the many other Psalms that do use the Name? Perhaps King David felt too filthy to use the Name of Yahweh at that time. Do you remember when he saw the angel with a sword drawn in his hand at the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite over in 1 Chronincles 21:28-30 when it says: "28 At that time, when David saw that Yahweh had answered him in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there. 29 For the tabernacle of Yahweh, which Moses made in the wilderness, and the altar of burnt-offering, were at that time in the high place at Gibeon. 30 But David could not go before it to inquire of Elohim; for he was afraid because of the sword of the angel of Yahweh." Something to consider that they are certain times when the fear of Yahweh causes us to keep our distance from Yahweh. We should always seek or be desirous of a close connection with Yahweh, but sometimes getting to a point where we can draw closer to Yahweh takes time.

You can do whatever you want. But it's clear that multiple different names are acceptable.

Yahweh has one Name. Elohim is not a Name, it's a title, that can be used as well as Yahweh. However, in scriptures like Isaiah 42:8 it clearly tells us that Yahweh is zealous for His Name and won't allow glory or praise to any other (name).

"8 I am Yahweh, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to carved images."

You said:

The Almighty can choose to respect or not to respect whomever, whenever, for any reason, and for no reason. Isaiah knows. 55:8

That's not true. Yahweh is not unjust. He will respect those that worship Him correctly, which is why I brought up the story of Cain and Abel, it clearly saying: "And Yahweh had respect unto Abel and to his offering:" What are you offering? And does Yahweh have respect to your offering? My point of the story of Abel and Cain is how we worship Yahweh is of supreme importance. Perhaps you would be happy bringing a vegetable offering to the Almighty when that's not what Yahweh wants, just like Cain, but in our faith the Assemblies of Yahweh we'll worship Yahweh the proper way, out of love for Him, using His Name, addressing Him the way He chooses and Yahweh willing He will be pleased with our worship which is offered out of sincere hearts through His Lamb Yahshua the Messiah.

 

[Clear]

Good evening to you as well.



Good idea, let's check.



Well. The scripture you brought does not use the name you have chosen, so that's a problem.

In greek it's Θεοῦ , and Θεὸς. Theos, basically. A generic word for divinity not a name.

Please consider Hannah in 1 Samuel 1, the quintessential example of prayer:

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And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed to YHVH, and wept bitterly.​

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And she vowed a vow, and said, YHVH-Tz'vahoht, if you will indeed look on the affliction of your maidservant, and remember me, and not forget your maidservant, but will give to your maidservant a male child, then I will give him to the Lord all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.​

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And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the YHVH, that Eli observed her mouth.​

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And Hanna spoke in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard; therefore Eli thought that she was drunk.​

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...​

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Then Eli answered and said, Go in peace; and Elohai-Yisrael grant you the petition that you have asked of him.​

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...​

And it came to pass, in due course, that Hanna conceived and bore a son, and called his name Samuel, saying, Because I have asked him from YHVH.​

So, Hannah uses the name YHVH-Tz'vahoht. Eli uses the name Elohai-Yisrael. And the prayers were answered.

It's a much better example than Acts 17, don't you think?

Then there's Psalm 145. Arguably the 2nd best example of praise and prayer in scripture.

The Lord is near to all those who call upon him, to all who call upon him in truth.​

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Notice. This is conditional on truth, not on which name is used. If the entire Psalm is read, King David describes precisely what it means to 'bless the holy name". It has nothing to do with consonants and vowels. It has everything to do with what God does. God's reputation.

And, if that's not enough, please consider the 10 commandments. Exodus 20:6

And showing mercy to thousands of those who love me, and keep my commandments.​

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Notice, again, what are the conditions? Love and keep. Knowing how to pronounce the name is irrelevant.



Well yes and no. Acts 17 towards the end is about idol-worship. The sermon is inspired by an idol labeled 'unknown god'. The preacher uses this as the beginning of the sermon and tells them what is known about God; tells them God is not make of precious metals and stone. God is not an idol.

Naturally the preacher in Acts 17 wants to convince them also of the truth of Christ, but, nothing in the entire chapter supports this notion you have brought in this thread:

"If you're not using yahweh as the name of God, then it's not praise."



Hannah knows what to do.
Eli knows what to do.
King David knows what to do.

None of it is bound to a specific pronounced name.

Hannah spoke in her heart and only her lips were moving.



Yes, you most certainly should.



The story has nothing to do with divine names does it?



Not true. You have been given scripture which supports different names. Please forgive me, but, how well do you know the book of Psalms?

Perhaps one of the most important psalms in the whole book, 51. Are you claiming King David prayed in vain? The prophet Nathan says he was forgiven. Verse 3:

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חנני אלהים כחסדך כרב רחמיך מחה פשעי׃​

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Be gracious to me, O God, according to your loving kindness; according to the multitude of your mercies blot out my transgressions.​

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That's NOT 'yahweh'.

If what you're saying is true, King David would not have been forgiven. 'yahweh', the name, does not exist in that Psalm. Verse 12:

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לב טהור ברא־לי אלהים ורוח נכון חדש בקרבי׃​

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a constant spirit inside me.​

I repeat. That's NOT 'yahweh' either.

If what you're saying is true, King David would not have been forgiven. 'yahweh', the name, does not exist in that Psalm.


You can do whatever you want. But it's clear that multiple different names are acceptable.

Who told you that praise is unlawful using any other name? After reading the scripture I brought, isn't it clear I was right in my reply to this thread? Making claims like this indicates ignorance not knowledge?

If this is the same source that declares with certainty, 'yahweh' is the correct pronunciation, do you still trust them for accuracy? Clearly they do not know scripture.




I find it repugnant to make a declaration like this. The Almighty can choose to respect or not to respect whomever, whenever, for any reason, and for no reason. Isaiah knows. 55:8

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For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord.​

Another story that has nothing to do with which name was used. The story tells you the difference between their offerings.

Abel brought the best of the flock.

@dmybh

Usually you and I are on different sides in a debate but I have to say your last post (#15) was really logical, concise, and a great post to read. Thanks so much for that post.

Clear

Thanks

Clear

 

[shunyadragon]

Hi Shunyadragon. Good evening. Perhaps you do find my view 'narrow', but you seem to forget that Yahshua our Savior called the true path a narrow way. He said "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to." (Luke 13:24). Now consider what our Savior said in relation to what you have just said, when you said 'I believe your view is selective and narrow and not inclusive.' That is the Bible in a nutshell. You may choose to reject the Name of Yahweh because of your own preferences. When we come to Yahweh, we put aside our preferences to take up Yahweh's preferences and He wants us to praise His Name, to worship Him by His Name and to witness His glorious Name to others. But if you claim to follow Yahshua, what did Yahshua say: "I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." Unconverted people hate the Name of Yahweh.

I love Yahweh's Name. I came to love it more and more up to my baptism and beyond that. His Name is based on the root of the word for eternity and it is clear to me that those who love Yahweh and His Name, have a love for eternal life. How many people in Chr-stianity claim to love the Almighty, yet they do not even know, use or regard His Name? Yet songs like '10,000 Reasons' clearly express that glorifying Yahweh's Name is important, yet Chr-stians don't know the words they are even singing. Would you marry someone who you didn't even know their name? The New Testament speaks of the marriage supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9). In the same way, if we want to enter a close communion with Yahweh, we have to address Him by His Name. His Law tells us that Yahweh wants us to exclusively use His Name and not the names of the mighty ones to address Him. All the elohim of the peoples are idols and actually, it seems that Yahweh likens the common names used to address other mighty ones as swear words (Exodus 23:13), which should be avoided. Something repulsive. Have you never read Hosea 2:17? We cannot use simply common, pagan terms to address the only Living and True Elohim, Yahweh. He deserves pure worship. The best we can possibly offer to Him should be His and that means coming before Him in Truth. Isn't that why the sacrifices had to be perfect. Our worship must be perfect. We must inspect our worship to ensure that it appears exactly the way Yahweh wants it or else we will be rejected. Not only will our sacrifice we offer be rejected, but we will too. If we ourselves are blind, then how can we offer ourselves to Yahweh as a suitable sacrifice (Malachi 1:8)? Each one of us is a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1).

If you say Yahweh is Omnipotent, All-Powerful and All-knowing, as you say He is, why don't you fear the fact that you use inferior terms which He has not sanctioned for use, to address the only Living and True Elohim? I fear Yahweh. I would fear to use a different term to address Yahweh now that I know His Name. How would you know the difference between those that speak error and those that speak truth? They are many people using all sorts of names for the Almighty. Yahweh has narrowed down our choices of choosing the correct faith by revealing His personal Name. Although all Bible teachers and professors will confirm the fact that the Tetragrammaton is found in the Inspired Scriptures and that it should be pronounced Yahweh, they will almost without exception reject the necessity for its exclusive use in our worship, which is wrong. The abbreviated form Yah is affixed to words to form proper nouns throughout the Bible such as Isaiah (IsaYah), Jeremiah (JeremeYah), Zephaniah (ZephanYah) and Zechariah (ZecharYah). Would you believe that you have unknowingly used the Sacred Names all your life in the names of these prophets? Clearly, Yahweh's Name is important in the Bible. You are of the opinion that Yahweh's Name doesn't matter, but if you have paid attention to the words you read in the Bible, you will find that the Name is of great importance to Yahweh. You wouldn't like it if I started calling you by something that wasn't your name, and neither does Yahweh. Yahweh has a Name and He has revealed that Name to us and He wants us to use it (Isaiah 55:6). We should call upon Yahweh before it is too late.

I have paid a great deal of attention to ALL the Bible, and ALL the scriptures of the world and history. That is where the severe contradictions of your view and the many conflicting very human claims of their WAY is the only way even to the point of rejecting science.

The problem with this perspective is your view is one of thousands and more ancient and contemporary perspectives that claim their God(s) or name(s) of God(s) are the One True God(s). This makes your view problematic from an ancient tribal perspective. The ancient text and archaeology do refer to Yahweh as a God among Gods including a female God.

I do believe that taking the Torah in context the Jews have a better understanding of the Hebrew text, than Christianity particularly from the Reformed Jewish perspective. Nonetheless, the Torah has very little context of the actual known ancient history of Jews, and the Middle East.

You actually do not have any objective perspective outside your ancient scriptures compiled, edited, and redacted by unknown authors without provenance thousands of years ago,

 

[dybmh]

Hi dybmh. You said the New Testament scripture I used does not use the Name Yahweh. I am well aware of that, however, Acts 17:30 addresses your point because it shows that Yahweh was willing to overlook ignorance in His worship when people didn't know better. I am coming from the perspective that ignorance *includes* not using the correct Name to worship Yahweh. Ignorance can include other things too regarding the worship of Yahweh such as not keeping all of the commandments

A fair statement, but, maybe ask yourself this. In those occasions where ignorance was ( and is ) overlooked, what is it that is valued in those circumstances? The answer to that question, I think, will resolve whatever disagreement we have over this issue.

Further, no scripture in the New Testament uses the Sacred Name because undoubtedly this was removed by the translators over time.

This doesn't match what I know about the way the NT was scribed. They thought the greek words were holy, and they were omitting those greek words. So, there wasn't a removal of the sacred name over time. And even if it was, the greek would say Kyrios ( κύριος ) replacing the four letter name, however you choose to pronounce it. Acts 17 does not use that word.

Nomina sacra - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

the term 'Lord' is used in most translations, but the Name would have appeared in the originals i.e.

That's an assumption which does not seem to have any basis.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at with Hannah's prayer. It says in the passage that she prayed to Yahweh. Verse 11 says "11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O Yahweh of hosts...", thus she was praying to Yahweh.

Lord-of-Hosts, YHVH-Tzvahoht is a divine name. When Hannah prayed she was praying to God using the name "YHVH-Tzvahoht". Yes, she was praying to YHVH, but she was using the name YHVH-Tzvahoht.

Isaiah 47:4, 48:2, 51:15, 54:5. Here's an example:

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As for our redeemer, the Lord of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.​

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Jeremiah 10:16, 31:34, 32:18, 50:34, 51:19. Here's an example:

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He, who is the portion of Jacob, is not like them; for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance; The Lord of hosts is his name.​

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Let's look at Psalm 145, which you quote. The Psalm says something along the lines of blessing or praising His Name. The word שֵׁם (šēm) name is used several times. "No certain etymology has been established for this root. The argument put forth by W. R. Smith (Kinship, 213) is preferred by some today. It derives šēm from the Arabic root wsʾm “to mark or brand,”"* hence an external mark to distinguish one thing or person from another. Yahweh's Name distinguishes from all the other names of the mighty ones of the world.

I don't know this person, or author, but, "an external mark or brand" is God's expressed-will in the form of actions revealed to humanity. It's what God does.

You quote from verse 18 which says: "18 Yahweh is near to all them that call upon him, To all that call upon him in truth." This supports use of the Name Yahweh. You cannot call upon Yahweh in truth if you are using a false name to address Him. Using the correct Name is necessary in order to call upon Him in truth. The term for truth is אֱמֶת (ʾĕmet) firmness, truth. If I was called as a witness at a trial and was told to tell the judge what I saw, and I used the wrong name of a person, I wouldn't be speaking truth.

In that example: God is the judge, 'Your Honor" would be appropriate not their personal name. Beyond that?

First, you would need to show that the other names besides 'yahweh' are false. Second, you have not addressed the example I gave originally. If I avoid a car accident and breathlessly, in a near panic, say "Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God, Thank-you-God..." what is false about that? Am I not grateful to God? Third, I have very good reasons to think yahweh is a false name. So you would need to prove that it's true before criticisizing any other pronounciation.

Answer me this? If it's yahweh, then that means it's a four letter name with only two vowel sounds? Right? The 'Y' has the "ah" vowel? The first "H" has no vowel sound? The "W" ( assuming it's a W and not a V ) has the "eh" sound? The last letter "H" has no vowel sound? All correct? All good so far?

Can you find ANY example of a hebrew name where the middle "H" has no vowel sound? Spoiler: I looked and can't find any. This topic has come up before. There's 9 chapters of names in chronicles. Find me one where the middle 'H' is lacking a vowel sound? Does it exist? People skip over those geneologies. Thank God we have them. Now's an opportunity to use them.

I disagree. Our reputation is tied in with our names. I want to point that out to you. If your name was John Smith, people would know right away's whether you had a good reputation or not by your name.

Not unless there were actions associated with the name.

You even said in a previous post "The G-d I worship would never reject based on which name is used." You all have your own little mighty ones that you worship in your own personal way, just like Israel worshiped the Baals and had their own little shrines, but the universal Mighty One Yahweh is disregarded. I don't call Yahweh my mighty one, I call Him the Mighty One.

The universal God is not disregarded. That's the whole point of saying, "the God I worship would not reject based on which name is used." Not rejecting people based on the name used is what would describe a universal god.

Regarding each person having their own version of God: every human being is different, and each human brain is different. That means **automatically** each person is going to have a different conception of God. At least a little different. Well. Assuming that it's not idol worship. If it's idol worship then, yes, everyone is imagining the same god because they're all looking at the same idol.

Now, please don't think that I missed the insult, accusing me and people like me of idol worship. I simply don't care. An insult needs to have at least a shred of truth in order to sting.

Even if you were to boil the Law down to those two commands, you would still be in violation. Loving Yahweh will mean we will use His Name.

I do not call my parents by their names and I love them. So that's a failed argument. I wonder if there will be any scripture in your post?

 

[dybmh]

We won't substitute His Name. Do we know what love is? Love isn't telling Yahweh, I know you have a Name and it's Yahweh but I'm going to substitute your Name contrary to what you have said, and call you by the name and titles which I desire. That's not love. If I started calling you by a different name that wasn't your name, how would you feel? Yahweh has feelings and I have no idea why more people do not see things as plainly as I do. So I challenge you, show me the commandment in the Bible which tells us to substitute His Name.

The answer to your challenge is Exodus 20:7. Not using the name in vain requires having a subsititute for mundane purposes.

And you need to prove that yahweh is correct pronounciation or else your entire argument is a failure. I've shown you examples of other names that are acceptable in prayer. In Exodus 3, multiple names are given. So far I am winning this argument simply because I have brought scripture making my point, and so far all you have brought is Acts 17 and an asumption that the name yahweh must have been removed.

The story of Uzziah is about the worship of Yahweh. We must worship Yahweh in the way that He wants, not in the way that we feel is acceptable. Therefore, the story may be related to using the Name of Yahweh, or any aspect of the worship of Yahweh, differentiating the worship of Yahweh between the way we want to worship Yahweh and the way Yahweh wants us to worship Him. Uzziah wasn't able to enter the House of Yahweh for the rest of his life because of his one decision to worship Yahweh the way he wanted to, with no regard to what Yahweh actually wanted.

I agree with what you're saying in principle, but you have brought no scripture saying, "Only pray using the name yahweh." Without that, then you are praying the way you want to pray, and criticising others for not doing it like you want to do it. These rules of worship you are putting forward are not coming from scripture. It's just how you want it to be. Or your community, or your preacher, or whomever.

And there's still the problem of proving that 'yahweh' is correct.

In terms of Psalm 51 not mentioning the Name, it's true, it doesn't. However, why ignore the many other Psalms that do use the Name?

I'm not ignoring any of them. You seem to be ignoring psalm 145 and 51, and I ca find you several others that don't use the four letter name. The whole book of Esther doesn't use the four letter name. Did you know that? Was Mordechai wrong? Didn't God save the Jewish people?

Perhaps King David felt too filthy to use the Name of Yahweh at that time

So what? The other name worked. And that doesn't explain Psalm 145. Definitely not filthy in that one.

Do you remember when he saw the angel with a sword drawn in his hand at the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite over in 1 Chronincles 21:28-30 when it says: "28 At that time, when David saw that Yahweh had answered him in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there. 29 For the tabernacle of Yahweh, which Moses made in the wilderness, and the altar of burnt-offering, were at that time in the high place at Gibeon. 30 But David could not go before it to inquire of Elohim; for he was afraid because of the sword of the angel of Yahweh." Something to consider that they are certain times when the fear of Yahweh causes us to keep our distance from Yahweh. We should always seek or be desirous of a close connection with Yahweh, but sometimes getting to a point where we can draw closer to Yahweh takes time.

All this means is that different names are appropriate at different times. Again, trying to force a specific single name is not scriptural.

Yahweh has one Name. Elohim is not a Name, it's a title, that can be used as well as Yahweh. However, in scriptures like Isaiah 42:8 it clearly tells us that Yahweh is zealous for His Name and won't allow glory or praise to any other (name).

"8 I am Yahweh, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to carved images."

3 names were given in Exodus 3. I am not sure if there are any verses which explicitly say Elohim is a name. But King David uses it as a name and has positive results. I'm sure I can find more examples.

That's not true. Yahweh is not unjust.

The verse from isaiah is not true. Your thoughts are like God's thoughts? What you imagine as just and unjust is incumbent on God? What's going on here? Who is in control? You or God?

which is why I brought up the story of Cain and Abel, it clearly saying: "And Yahweh had respect unto Abel and to his offering:" What are you offering? And does Yahweh have respect to your offering? My point of the story of Abel and Cain is how we worship Yahweh is of supreme importance. Perhaps you would be happy bringing a vegetable offering to the Almighty when that's not what Yahweh wants, just like Cain, but in our faith the Assemblies of Yahweh we'll worship Yahweh the proper way, out of love for Him, using His Name, addressing Him the way He chooses and Yahweh willing He will be pleased with our worship which is offered out of sincere hearts through His Lamb Yahshua the Messiah.

All I see here is you pretending to be a god and telling me what to do like your underling. You speak like you have some sort of private arcane knowledge of what God wants, but cannot produce anything written to confirm it.