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What do you think the Good News of Jesus Christ is?

gnostic

The Lost One
katzpur said:
Yeah, JWs conveniently forget that fact.

It really should be obvious.

savagewind said:
No. Sex is going to go out of fashion. Haha

Yeah, right. I can see that happening some time soon. :rolleyes:

God's first commandment in Genesis was - "Be fruitful and multiply" or something like that. He wanted man to fill the earth and dominate all animals.

How do you populate the world without reproduction, without sex?
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
No. Sex is going to go out of fashion. Haha

Yeah, right. I can see that happening some time soon. :rolleyes:

God's first commandment in Genesis was - "Be fruitful and multiply" or something like that. He wanted man to fill the earth and dominate all animals.

How do you populate the world without reproduction, without sex?
You guys can laugh (and yeah, you probably should) but I think that is pretty much what Paul imagined. If there is no more death, we don't need any more reproduction.


...and no, it is not my idea of paradise either.
 

HeatherAnn

Active Member
What do you think the Good News of Jesus Christ is?
Good is what we strive for - like love - the higher good.
The term, "news" suggests newness - which life is continuously.

I think good news is continually striving to learn new things - getting closer to God/Truth/Love - and becoming more free, peaceful and happy because we're progressing.
 

John Martin

Active Member
God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply.
This is not limited to the physical multiplication of Children. It means to manifest divine attributes of love and compassion in human relationships. We need to multiply what is necessary to the human beings. Jesus Christ did not multiply physically but he multiplied bread and fish, he changed water into wine, he healed people, he gave love and compassion to people. These are expressions of 'fruitfulness and multiplication'.
What we do physically may be very limited what we do spiritually may be unlimited.
 

jah59

Member
First of all, understanding so-called "plain English", on top of being a difficult task even for native speakers due to the fact that English sucks as a language, is not the problem. Word choice and usage is generally more important, and if you aren't careful with the words you use, you will be misunderstood even by people who speak the language better than you do.

Anyway, there's far more documented evidence of Julius Caesar, in addition to all the archaeological evidence of his existence, than there is of Jesus Christ, of whom all there is is early Christian literature like the Gospels. From what I understand, there are no non-Christian sources that mention Jesus; whereas there's plenty of non-Roman sources that mention Julius Caesar.

The weight of historical record is not just from manuscripts. That's a gross oversimplification of how historicity is established. Plenty of other things can be used.

Care to cite sources for your claim?
 

jah59

Member
Exactly.

His life was recorded by many eye witnesses.

jesus not a single one.
I assume that this means that you believe that the writers who say they were eyewitnesses, e.g. Peter and John lied and did not really ever see him and/or didn't even have the names they claimed. If this is true in spite of the overwhelming volume of written records, why would you believe any written history that old or older?

Jesus never wanted his physical appearance to be recorded lest it lead to idolatry.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
People like teachers, leaders, were assigned scribes, this is something that even occurred up until the modern age, and is indicative of societies where there are literate people, and illiterate people, and the rarity of writing materials especially in that era, notes would have been taken (most likely Hebrew or Aramaic, later compiled and translated into what we know as the Gospels. It would be 'odd' rather for nothing to be noted when Jesus was a teacher with followers, adherents, both Jewish and non-Jewish by accounts, and further He was connected to the Essenic community and Nazarene teachings.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
John Martin said:
God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply.
This is not limited to the physical multiplication of Children. It means to manifest divine attributes of love and compassion in human relationships. We need to multiply what is necessary to the human beings. Jesus Christ did not multiply physically but he multiplied bread and fish, he changed water into wine, he healed people, he gave love and compassion to people. These are expressions of 'fruitfulness and multiplication'.
What we do physically may be very limited what we do spiritually may be unlimited.

Nothing in Genesis 1's commandment speak of "love and compassion" or even remotely suggest them.

Right after saying "multiply", it clearly state that they should "dominate" all animals, throughout the world.

The words, "dominate" and that of "love" & "compassion" don't fit well with each other...not unless you warped all 3 words out of context.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Nothing in Genesis 1's commandment speak of "love and compassion" or even remotely suggest them.

Right after saying "multiply", it clearly state that they should "dominate" all animals, throughout the world.

The words, "dominate" and that of "love" & "compassion" don't fit well with each other...not unless you warped all 3 words out of context.

To be fair, if I recall correctly, the Hebrew word used didn't have the same connotations as the English "dominate" does.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I assume that this means that you believe that the writers who say they were eyewitnesses, e.g. Peter and John lied and did not really ever see him and/or didn't even have the names they claimed.
.

Before you post, you should actually know what your talking about.


How could possible apostles lie, when they did not even sign their names ever?


We know the names to the books were attributed long after completion as they became popular in certain circles.

To date, the authors are not known, and we know they factually were not written by a single Galilean Aramaic Jew who followed Jesus.


What we do know is that Hellenist in the Diaspora from all over the Diaspora who were far removed from the life of Jesus, are responsible for the gospels we have.


Paul is the best we have, and he was far removed from Jesus life.


Jesus never wanted his physical appearance to be recorded lest it lead to idolatry

What verse makes you guess like that?

If this is true in spite of the overwhelming volume of written records, why would you believe any written history that old or older?

Because this was religious text and mythology and not a form of history known to most modern people. Its why so many uneducated people take it all out of context.

History can be pulled from its pages, but only after careful study using cultural anthropology, both physical and cultural.


This next part is fact so please pay attention. More then anything the gospels are a reflection of what later Hellenist 40-100 years after Jesus death believed. NOT what actually happened during Passover and his death. He did die on a cross, and was baptized by John, he was from Nazareth and he was a traveling teacher.

Details get fuzzy and in error after that. case in point. Can you separate the teachings of John the Baptist from Jesus? I cannot. Neither could the communities that wrote these books who were never there and relied on oral traditions which gained mythology which factually grew every year, and with ever book.
 

jah59

Member
Anyway, there's far more documented evidence of Julius Caesar, in addition to all the archaeological evidence of his existence, than there is of Jesus Christ, of whom all there is is early Christian literature like the Gospels. From what I understand, there are no non-Christian sources that mention Jesus; whereas there's plenty of non-Roman sources that mention Julius Caesar.

The weight of historical record is not just from manuscripts. That's a gross oversimplification of how historicity is established. Plenty of other things can be used.

Happy to enlighten you to the truth of the matter:

Non-biblical Sources for Historicity of Jesus
1C. CORNELIUS TACITUS (born A.D. 52-54)
A Roman historian, in 112 A.D., Governor of Asia, son-in-law of Julius Agricola who was Governor of Britain A.D. 80-84.
Writing of the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians at Rome: "But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." Annals XV. 44
McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (pp. 81-82). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

2C. LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA
A satirist of the second century, who spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians. He connected them with the synagogues of Palestine and alluded to Christ as: " . . . the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world....
McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 82). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

3C. FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS (born A.D. 37)
A Jewish historian, became a Pharisee at age 19; in A.D. 66 he was the commander of Jewish forces in Galilee. After being captured, he was attached to the Roman headquarters. He says in a hotly-contested quotation: "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day." Antiquities, xviii.33. (Early second century)
McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 82). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

4C. SUETONIUS (A.D. 120)
Another Roman historian, court official under Hadrian, annalist of the Imperial House, says: "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (another spelling of Christus), he expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius 25.4 He also writes: "Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition." Lives of the Caesars, 26.2

5C. PLINIUS SECUNDUS, PLINY THE YOUNGER Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (A.D. 112),
Pliny was writing the emperor Trajan seeking counsel as to how to treat the Christians. He explained that he had been killing both men and women, boys and girls. There were so many being put to death that he wondered if he should continue killing anyone who was discovered to be a Christian, or if he should kill only certain ones. He explained that he had made the Christians bow down to the statues of Trajan. He goes on to say that he also "made them curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do." In the same letter he says of the people who were being tried: "They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up." Epistles X.96
McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 83). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

6C. TERTULLIAN Jurist-theologian of Carthage, in a defense of Christianity (A.D. 197)
before the Roman authorities in Africa, mentions the exchange between Tiberius and Pontius
Pilate: "Tiberius accordingly, in those days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from the truth of Christ's divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favor of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all the accusers of the Christians" (Apology, V.2). Some historians doubt the historicity of this passage. Also, Cr. Justin Martyr, Apology, 1.35.

7C. THALLUS, THE SAMARITAN-BORN HISTORIAN One of the first Gentile writers who mentions Christ is Thallus, who wrote in 52 A.D.
However, his writings have disappeared and we only know of them from fragments cited by other writers. One such writer is Julius Africanus, a Christian writer about 221 A.D. One very interesting passage relates to a comment from Thallus. Julius Africanus writes: " 'Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun — unreasonably, as it seems to me* (unreasonably, of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died)." Thus, from this reference we see that the Gospel account of the darkness which fell upon the land during Christ's crucifixion was well known and required a naturalistic explanation from those non-believers who witnessed it. 2/113
McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (pp. 83-84). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

8C. PHLEGON, A FIRST CENTURY HISTORIAN His Chronicles have been lost, but a small fragment of that work, which confirms the darkness upon the earth at the crucifixion, is also mentioned by Julius Africanus. After his (Africanus5) remarks about Thallus* unreasonable opinion of the darkness, he quotes Phlegon that "during the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon." 7/IIB, sect. 256 f16, p. 1165 Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen in Contra Celsum, Book 2, sections 14,33,59. Philopon (De. opif. mund. II21) says: "And about this darkness... Phlegon recalls it in the Olympiads (the title of his history)." He says that "Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Christ, and no other (eclipse), it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous t i m e s . . . and this is shown by the historical account itself of Tiberius Caesar." 4/H B, sect. 257 f 16, c, p. 1165

9C. LETTER OF MARA BAR-SERAPION F. F. Bruce records that there is: " . . . in the British Museum an interesting manuscript preserving the text of a letter written some time later than A.D. 73, but how much later we cannot be sure. This letter was sent by a Syrian named Mara Bar-Serapion to his son Serapion. Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ:
McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 84). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.
 

jah59

Member
Sadly that is a very common lie found in Christian apologetics. There is a far greater body of historical evidence for many other ancient figures than there is for the NT. For Julius Ceaser for example there are coins, statues, hundreds of legal documents, public records, images etc etc etc - enough to outweigh the evidence for the historicity of Jesus a hundred times over.

Which leads to the second very common lie found in Christian apologetics, that the historicity of Jesus has somehow been established to the point of near certainty - which is simply not the case.

I have an book of biblical archaeology backing up the NT from which would take days for me to post exhaustively. What citations can you provide for your claim?
 

jah59

Member
Anyway, there's far more documented evidence of Julius Caesar, in addition to all the archaeological evidence of his existence, than there is of Jesus Christ, of whom all there is is early Christian literature like the Gospels. From what I understand, there are no non-Christian sources that mention Jesus; whereas there's plenty of non-Roman sources that mention Julius Caesar.

The weight of historical record is not just from manuscripts. That's a gross oversimplification of how historicity is established. Plenty of other things can be used.

A little reality check might be helpful here:
The New Testament Documents vividly pictures the comparison between the New Testament and ancient historical writings: "Perhaps we can appreciate how wealthy the New Testament is in manuscript attestation if we compare the textual material for other ancient historical works. For Caesar's Gallic Wars (composed between 58 and 50 B.C.) there are several extant MSS, but only nine or ten are good, and the oldest is some 900 years later than Caesar's day. Of the 142 books of the Roman history of Livy (59 B.C.-A.D. 17), only 35 survive; these are known to us from not more than 20 MSS of any consequence, only one of which, and that containing fragments of Books III-VI, is as old as the fourth century. Of the 14 books of the Histories of Tacitus (ca A.D. 100) only four and a half survive; of the 16 books of his Annals, 10 survive in full and two in part. The text of these extant portions of his two great historical works depends entirely on two MSS, one of the ninth century and one of the eleventh.

McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 41). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

Is this the kind of evidence you're referring to???
 

jah59

Member
Anyway, there's far more documented evidence of Julius Caesar, in addition to all the archaeological evidence of his existence, than there is of Jesus Christ, of whom all there is is early Christian literature like the Gospels. From what I understand, there are no non-Christian sources that mention Jesus; whereas there's plenty of non-Roman sources that mention Julius Caesar.

The weight of historical record is not just from manuscripts. That's a gross oversimplification of how historicity is established. Plenty of other things can be used.

A little reality check might be helpful here:
The New Testament Documents vividly pictures the comparison between the New Testament and ancient historical writings: "Perhaps we can appreciate how wealthy the New Testament is in manuscript attestation if we compare the textual material for other ancient historical works. For Caesar's Gallic Wars (composed between 58 and 50 B.C.) there are several extant MSS, but only nine or ten are good, and the oldest is some 900 years later than Caesar's day. Of the 142 books of the Roman history of Livy (59 B.C.-A.D. 17), only 35 survive; these are known to us from not more than 20 MSS of any consequence, only one of which, and that containing fragments of Books III-VI, is as old as the fourth century. Of the 14 books of the Histories of Tacitus (ca A.D. 100) only four and a half survive; of the 16 books of his Annals, 10 survive in full and two in part. The text of these extant portions of his two great historical works depends entirely on two MSS, one of the ninth century and one of the eleventh.

McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 41). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

E. G. Turner points out that Homer was no doubt the most widely read author in antiquity. 92/97
WORK //////////// WHEN WRITTEN /// EARLIEST COPY /// TIME SPAN /// NO. OF COPIES
Homer (Iliad) /// 900 B.C. //////////// 400 B.C. /////////// 500 yrs. /////// 643
New Testament // 40-100 A.D. //////// 125 A.D. /////////// 25 yrs. ////// over 24,000

McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 43). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

Is this the kind of evidence you're referring to???
 
Last edited:

jah59

Member
Before you post, you should actually know what your talking about.

How could possible apostles lie, when they did not even sign their names ever?
Wow! How many times did you read the Bible before you came up with that? Or how told you that???

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
(1 Peter 1:1-2)

I invite you to actually read the Bible before you start talking about it!
 

jah59

Member
Before you post, you should actually know what your talking about.


How could possible apostles lie, when they did not even sign their names ever?


We know the names to the books were attributed long after completion as they became popular in certain circles.

To date, the authors are not known, and we know they factually were not written by a single Galilean Aramaic Jew who followed Jesus.


What we do know is that Hellenist in the Diaspora from all over the Diaspora who were far removed from the life of Jesus, are responsible for the gospels we have.


Paul is the best we have, and he was far removed from Jesus life.




What verse makes you guess like that?



Because this was religious text and mythology and not a form of history known to most modern people. Its why so many uneducated people take it all out of context.

History can be pulled from its pages, but only after careful study using cultural anthropology, both physical and cultural.


This next part is fact so please pay attention. More then anything the gospels are a reflection of what later Hellenist 40-100 years after Jesus death believed. NOT what actually happened during Passover and his death. He did die on a cross, and was baptized by John, he was from Nazareth and he was a traveling teacher.

Details get fuzzy and in error after that. case in point. Can you separate the teachings of John the Baptist from Jesus? I cannot. Neither could the communities that wrote these books who were never there and relied on oral traditions which gained mythology which factually grew every year, and with ever book.

I can see that you are so prejudiced against Scripture that you cannot even entertain the idea that it is just as valid as any history. You are certainly entitled to such an opinion. Now that I know where you're coming from (I was of such a mindset myself many years ago) I will spend no more time presenting evidence to you as I realize no amount of evidence alone will change your mind.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Happy to enlighten you to the truth of the matter:

Non-biblical Sources for Historicity of Jesus
1C. CORNELIUS TACITUS (born A.D. 52-54)
A Roman historian, in 112 A.D., Governor of Asia, son-in-law of Julius Agricola who was Governor of Britain A.D. 80-84.
Writing of the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians at Rome: "But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." Annals XV. 44
McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (pp. 81-82). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

2C. LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA
A satirist of the second century, who spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians. He connected them with the synagogues of Palestine and alluded to Christ as: " . . . the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world....
McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 82). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

3C. FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS (born A.D. 37)
A Jewish historian, became a Pharisee at age 19; in A.D. 66 he was the commander of Jewish forces in Galilee. After being captured, he was attached to the Roman headquarters. He says in a hotly-contested quotation: "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day." Antiquities, xviii.33. (Early second century)
McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 82). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

4C. SUETONIUS (A.D. 120)
Another Roman historian, court official under Hadrian, annalist of the Imperial House, says: "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (another spelling of Christus), he expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius 25.4 He also writes: "Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition." Lives of the Caesars, 26.2

5C. PLINIUS SECUNDUS, PLINY THE YOUNGER Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (A.D. 112),
Pliny was writing the emperor Trajan seeking counsel as to how to treat the Christians. He explained that he had been killing both men and women, boys and girls. There were so many being put to death that he wondered if he should continue killing anyone who was discovered to be a Christian, or if he should kill only certain ones. He explained that he had made the Christians bow down to the statues of Trajan. He goes on to say that he also "made them curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do." In the same letter he says of the people who were being tried: "They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up." Epistles X.96
McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 83). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

6C. TERTULLIAN Jurist-theologian of Carthage, in a defense of Christianity (A.D. 197)
before the Roman authorities in Africa, mentions the exchange between Tiberius and Pontius
Pilate: "Tiberius accordingly, in those days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from the truth of Christ's divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favor of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all the accusers of the Christians" (Apology, V.2). Some historians doubt the historicity of this passage. Also, Cr. Justin Martyr, Apology, 1.35.

7C. THALLUS, THE SAMARITAN-BORN HISTORIAN One of the first Gentile writers who mentions Christ is Thallus, who wrote in 52 A.D.
However, his writings have disappeared and we only know of them from fragments cited by other writers. One such writer is Julius Africanus, a Christian writer about 221 A.D. One very interesting passage relates to a comment from Thallus. Julius Africanus writes: " 'Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun — unreasonably, as it seems to me* (unreasonably, of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died)." Thus, from this reference we see that the Gospel account of the darkness which fell upon the land during Christ's crucifixion was well known and required a naturalistic explanation from those non-believers who witnessed it. 2/113
McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (pp. 83-84). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

8C. PHLEGON, A FIRST CENTURY HISTORIAN His Chronicles have been lost, but a small fragment of that work, which confirms the darkness upon the earth at the crucifixion, is also mentioned by Julius Africanus. After his (Africanus5) remarks about Thallus* unreasonable opinion of the darkness, he quotes Phlegon that "during the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon." 7/IIB, sect. 256 f16, p. 1165 Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen in Contra Celsum, Book 2, sections 14,33,59. Philopon (De. opif. mund. II21) says: "And about this darkness... Phlegon recalls it in the Olympiads (the title of his history)." He says that "Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Christ, and no other (eclipse), it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous t i m e s . . . and this is shown by the historical account itself of Tiberius Caesar." 4/H B, sect. 257 f 16, c, p. 1165

9C. LETTER OF MARA BAR-SERAPION F. F. Bruce records that there is: " . . . in the British Museum an interesting manuscript preserving the text of a letter written some time later than A.D. 73, but how much later we cannot be sure. This letter was sent by a Syrian named Mara Bar-Serapion to his son Serapion. Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ:
McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 84). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

Okay, then. I said that I was unaware of any non-Christian sources that mentioned him, and now I am aware of some.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
A little reality check might be helpful here:
The New Testament Documents vividly pictures the comparison between the New Testament and ancient historical writings: "Perhaps we can appreciate how wealthy the New Testament is in manuscript attestation if we compare the textual material for other ancient historical works. For Caesar's Gallic Wars (composed between 58 and 50 B.C.) there are several extant MSS, but only nine or ten are good, and the oldest is some 900 years later than Caesar's day. Of the 142 books of the Roman history of Livy (59 B.C.-A.D. 17), only 35 survive; these are known to us from not more than 20 MSS of any consequence, only one of which, and that containing fragments of Books III-VI, is as old as the fourth century. Of the 14 books of the Histories of Tacitus (ca A.D. 100) only four and a half survive; of the 16 books of his Annals, 10 survive in full and two in part. The text of these extant portions of his two great historical works depends entirely on two MSS, one of the ninth century and one of the eleventh.

McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 41). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

E. G. Turner points out that Homer was no doubt the most widely read author in antiquity. 92/97
WORK //////////// WHEN WRITTEN /// EARLIEST COPY /// TIME SPAN /// NO. OF COPIES
Homer (Iliad) /// 900 B.C. //////////// 400 B.C. /////////// 500 yrs. /////// 643
New Testament // 40-100 A.D. //////// 125 A.D. /////////// 25 yrs. ////// over 24,000

McDowell, Josh (1992-09-01). Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1: 001 (p. 43). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

Is this the kind of evidence you're referring to???

The dating of a text is not based on supposed authorship, or the dates of the surviving copies. If it were, the Gospels would be dated to about 200 CE.

It's based on such things like comparative linguistics.

In any case, I understand that there is some question as to Homer's exact historicity, as well.
 
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