What do you Know About Islam?

[Riverwolf]

You are being optimistic due to the fact that you are cherry-picking items from the Quran which support a tolerant interpretation of Islam, and you are denying the fact of reality that most Islamic nations practice some version of Sharia law, which is not tolerant at all. Just because there are some Muslims in your school cafeteria who mingle with non-Muslims does not mean that Islam is a tolerant religion. Projecting your own liberal psychology onto the many Muslims of the world is not realistic, it is wildly optimistic.

Remember: I have not read the entire Qur'an, and I do not know much about Sharia Law, such as whether or not it is supported in the Qur'an. My studies have not reached that, yet.

It seems to me that you are completely ignoring the fact that many Muslims are tolerant, and tolerance is supported by the Qur'an. Instead, you seem to be focusing on the bad, and that the bad somehow cancels out the good.

My conclusion: a religion cannot be intolerant or tolerant: that falls only to the people who follow it. There are tolerant Muslims, AND intolerant Muslims. I admit: the intolerant ones do appear to outnumber the tolerant ones. Islam itself is just a form of worship.

I don't judge a religion by the counties that use it as a political system.

EDIT: If tolerant Muslims do exist, that itself is, in my opinion, enough to show me that tolerance is fully compatible with Islam.

 

[McBell]

If tolerant Muslims do exist, that itself is, in my opinion, enough to show me that tolerance is fully compatible with Islam.

I agree.
And you may well be happy to know that there are all manner of tolerant Muslims.
I know several of them personally.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

What do you Know About Islam?

Very little. But most of what I do know is consistent with my own beliefs. The parts of the Quran that I've read are quite nice. I would like to read the Quran completely. The trouble is finding a decent English translation. (Any recommendations?) From what I've seen so far, Islam and Christianity seem to be in the same boat. Followers adding their own beliefs/opinions to what was the original truth resulting in confusion and a decrease in genuineness. I think that if all Muslims lived what the Quran teaches, and all Christians lived what the Bible teaches, we would realize they sent by the same God. Honestly, my biggest (only?) beef with Islam is that it claims revelation is ended. I strongly reject that idea. Mankind has always needed guidance and revelation from God in any age and any continent. I look around the world and think we need God's help now more than ever. Why would he abandon us now when we need him the most? No, I cannot believe that God has gone silent.

 

[footprints]

You are being optimistic due to the fact that you are cherry-picking items from the Quran which support a tolerant interpretation of Islam, and you are denying the fact of reality that most Islamic nations practice some version of Sharia law, which is not tolerant at all. Just because there are some Muslims in your school cafeteria who mingle with non-Muslims does not mean that Islam is a tolerant religion. Projecting your own liberal psychology onto the many Muslims of the world is not realistic, it is wildly optimistic.

I would suggest, as is projecting your negative psychology onto the many.

Yes there are extremist Muslims, the good should not be judged by the bad. Yes there are extremist Americans and Australians, the good should not be judged by the bad. In fact there are extremists in every belief ranging from atheist to theist to every culture and nationality around the world, the good should never be judged by the bad.

Where you focus your association of relationship will determine the positive or negative within the self and set your tolerance/intolerance level accordingly. The native american indian put it like this; we each carry two wolves inside of us, a positive wolf and a negative wolf, which one we feed will become strongest.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

That's fine: I'm not interested in heaven.

There has been great fruit for followers from Islam, but I must accept the fact that many are Muslims not through love and devotion, but through fear, either of Allah or of the government. That's not religion: that's tyranny. So while there is good fruit, there is just as much bad fruit. Same with Christianity. That's partially why I chose Sanatana Dharma, because there's far more good fruit than bad in those paths.

I do consider Islam a valid spiritual path of devotion. I do not condemn it, nor do I listen to anti-Islam propaganda. But understand, I don't listen to pro-Islam propaganda, either. When I study a religion, I try to study it on its own terms objectively.

heaven and hell are tools to accelerte motion of slef's approach to Allah and vacate self's secular desires

it's a way of awakening one's hope for of heaven and terrifying him from hell

have you heard about the way of how thunder is resulted?

let suppose "awakening one's hope for heaven" as a synonym to "heat"
and suppose "terrifying him from hell" as a synonym to "pressure"
and let suppouse that the "word of Allah" as a synonym to "lightning"

Thunder is the sound made by lightning.The sudden increase in pressure and temperature from lightning produces rapid expansion of the air surrounding and within a bolt of lightning. In turn, this expansion of air creates a sonic shock wave which produces the sound of thunder.

we as a muslim consider the sound of thunder -due to rapid increase in pressure and temperature at air- as a praise to Allah.

Qur'an 13:12-13 " Thunder"

12. It is He Who doth show you the lightning, by way both of fear and of hope: It is He Who doth raise up the clouds, heavy with (fertilising) rain!

13. Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will..yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!

put in mind heaven is the place where you would be close to Allah

 

[Kerr]

heaven and hell are tools to accelerte motion of slef's approach to Allah and vacate self's secular desires

it's a way of awakening one's hope for of heaven and terrifying him from hell

have you heard about the way of how thunder is resulted?

let suppose "awakening one's hope for heaven" as a synonym to "heat"
and suppose "terrifying him from hell" as a synonym to "pressure"
and let suppouse that the "word of Allah" as a synonym to "lightning"

Thunder is the sound made by lightning.The sudden increase in pressure and temperature from lightning produces rapid expansion of the air surrounding and within a bolt of lightning. In turn, this expansion of air creates a sonic shock wave which produces the sound of thunder.

we as a muslim consider the sound of thunder -due to rapid increase in pressure and temperature at air- as a praise to Allah.

Qur'an 13:12-13 " Thunder"

12. It is He Who doth show you the lightning, by way both of fear and of hope: It is He Who doth raise up the clouds, heavy with (fertilising) rain!

13. Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will..yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!

put in mind heaven is the place where you would be close to Allah

"Secular desires"? You do realize that being "secular" and "non-religious" is not that much of a crime? And that the concept of heaven and hell causes more problems then it solves?

 

[McBell]

heaven and hell are tools to accelerte motion of slef's approach to Allah and vacate self's secular desires

it's a way of awakening one's hope for of heaven and terrifying him from hell

have you heard about the way of how thunder is resulted?

let suppose "awakening one's hope for heaven" as a synonym to "heat"
and suppose "terrifying him from hell" as a synonym to "pressure"
and let suppouse that the "word of Allah" as a synonym to "lightning"

Thunder is the sound made by lightning.The sudden increase in pressure and temperature from lightning produces rapid expansion of the air surrounding and within a bolt of lightning. In turn, this expansion of air creates a sonic shock wave which produces the sound of thunder.

we as a muslim consider the sound of thunder -due to rapid increase in pressure and temperature at air- as a praise to Allah.

Qur'an 13:12-13 " Thunder"

12. It is He Who doth show you the lightning, by way both of fear and of hope: It is He Who doth raise up the clouds, heavy with (fertilising) rain!

13. Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will..yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!

put in mind heaven is the place where you would be close to Allah

Yes.
The fear of punishment and hope of reward is a really powerful motivator.
Religion has been using it successfully for millennia.

 

[England my lionheart]

heaven and hell are tools to accelerte motion of slef's approach to Allah and vacate self's secular desires

it's a way of awakening one's hope for of heaven and terrifying him from hell

have you heard about the way of how thunder is resulted?

let suppose "awakening one's hope for heaven" as a synonym to "heat"
and suppose "terrifying him from hell" as a synonym to "pressure"
and let suppouse that the "word of Allah" as a synonym to "lightning"

Thunder is the sound made by lightning.The sudden increase in pressure and temperature from lightning produces rapid expansion of the air surrounding and within a bolt of lightning. In turn, this expansion of air creates a sonic shock wave which produces the sound of thunder.

we as a muslim consider the sound of thunder -due to rapid increase in pressure and temperature at air- as a praise to Allah.

Qur'an 13:12-13 " Thunder"

12. It is He Who doth show you the lightning, by way both of fear and of hope: It is He Who doth raise up the clouds, heavy with (fertilising) rain!

13. Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will..yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!

put in mind heaven is the place where you would be close to Allah

This could be summarised by two words,stick,Carrot

 

[YmirGF]

heaven and hell are tools to accelerte motion of slef's approach to Allah and vacate self's secular desires

it's a way of awakening one's hope for of heaven and terrifying him from hell

have you heard about the way of how thunder is resulted?

let suppose "awakening one's hope for heaven" as a synonym to "heat"
and suppose "terrifying him from hell" as a synonym to "pressure"
and let suppouse that the "word of Allah" as a synonym to "lightning"

Thunder is the sound made by lightning.The sudden increase in pressure and temperature from lightning produces rapid expansion of the air surrounding and within a bolt of lightning. In turn, this expansion of air creates a sonic shock wave which produces the sound of thunder.

we as a muslim consider the sound of thunder -due to rapid increase in pressure and temperature at air- as a praise to Allah.

Qur'an 13:12-13 " Thunder"

12. It is He Who doth show you the lightning, by way both of fear and of hope: It is He Who doth raise up the clouds, heavy with (fertilising) rain!

13. Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will..yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!

put in mind heaven is the place where you would be close to Allah

Just for a change, I thought I'd try to be understanding, but unfortunately I can't seem to wrap my head around the concept that your post is reasonable, in any way, let alone reflecting any kind of wisdom. May Allah strike me down if I am telling a lie.

 

[Riverwolf]

heaven and hell are tools to accelerte motion of slef's approach to Allah and vacate self's secular desires

it's a way of awakening one's hope for of heaven and terrifying him from hell

have you heard about the way of how thunder is resulted?

let suppose "awakening one's hope for heaven" as a synonym to "heat"
and suppose "terrifying him from hell" as a synonym to "pressure"
and let suppouse that the "word of Allah" as a synonym to "lightning"

Thunder is the sound made by lightning.The sudden increase in pressure and temperature from lightning produces rapid expansion of the air surrounding and within a bolt of lightning. In turn, this expansion of air creates a sonic shock wave which produces the sound of thunder.

we as a muslim consider the sound of thunder -due to rapid increase in pressure and temperature at air- as a praise to Allah.

Qur'an 13:12-13 " Thunder"

12. It is He Who doth show you the lightning, by way both of fear and of hope: It is He Who doth raise up the clouds, heavy with (fertilising) rain!

13. Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will..yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!

put in mind heaven is the place where you would be close to Allah

I was under the impression that Heaven is a place where all our desires are fulfilled. That's not interesting to me.

Besides, I do not follow any form of God who uses fear as part of the motivating factor in getting His people to follow Him.

 

[no-body]

heaven and hell are tools to accelerte motion of slef's approach to Allah and vacate self's secular desires

it's a way of awakening one's hope for of heaven and terrifying him from hell

have you heard about the way of how thunder is resulted?

let suppose "awakening one's hope for heaven" as a synonym to "heat"
and suppose "terrifying him from hell" as a synonym to "pressure"
and let suppouse that the "word of Allah" as a synonym to "lightning"

Thunder is the sound made by lightning.The sudden increase in pressure and temperature from lightning produces rapid expansion of the air surrounding and within a bolt of lightning. In turn, this expansion of air creates a sonic shock wave which produces the sound of thunder.

we as a muslim consider the sound of thunder -due to rapid increase in pressure and temperature at air- as a praise to Allah.

Qur'an 13:12-13 " Thunder"

12. It is He Who doth show you the lightning, by way both of fear and of hope: It is He Who doth raise up the clouds, heavy with (fertilising) rain!

13. Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will..yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!

put in mind heaven is the place where you would be close to Allah

The concept of divine love sounds more reasonable...

"O Allah! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell,
and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise.
But if I worship You for Your Own sake,
grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.”

THIS is a God I could worship, One that transcends human thinking and petty revenge.

 

[Riverwolf]

The concept of divine love sounds more reasonable...

"O Allah! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell,
and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise.
But if I worship You for Your Own sake,
grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.”

THIS is a God I could worship, One that transcends human thinking and petty revenge.

I do love that prayer. :yes:

I, too, try to worship God in that manner.

 

[YmirGF]

I do love that prayer. :yes:

I, too, try to worship God in that manner.

I am still wrestling with why worship is considered a meaningful act. Why would a god want to be worshiped? Why would a god tolerate being the object of worship? It all sounds far too human, imo.

 

[YmirGF]

Can you tell me a few of those sources. I think you have made a capital mistake if you have directly read the Quran translation and traditions. I am saying this, because I have an idea of the cultural gap, and the implications it may have. I think you should first read a good book on Islam.

I think it is a bit late for that, my friend. So, now we are not supposed the read English translations? Do you realize just how idiotic that sounds?

I am putting it in quotes because I believe that your conclusion that the Prophet was ever in power, or ever out of power is wrong. Anyway, that's my belief: No one is ever really in or out of power, (s)he only thinks so.

I would consider this to be a very naive opinion.

Do you believe in this story? If you do not, as being a non-muslim you probably do, then you shouldn't believe in any conclusions that you may infer, either. That seems only fair.

You're kidding me. I can't read a story and develop an informed opinion of what the story is about?

IMHO, you have no idea of what you are talking about. There was no compulsion of the mind, only hesitation was being removed. Even so, tell me if a parent forces his/her child to study would you call it wrong?

This is an excellent example of one shooting their toes off. Nice work. So, are you saying that compulsion is ok, if done for the right reasons?

First of all (2) was not theoretically unfair, and no treatment as second class citizens was implied. In return of paying jizya, the non-Muslims got the protection of the state, were not obligated to pay zakat, were not obligated to fighting for the state.

Theory and practice are two different things. In theory, Communism looks good on paper, it just doesn't work worth a damn in the real world. It's terrible how humans can ruin the best laid plans, isn't it?

Secondly, you are entirely failing to take into account the tribal nature of Arab society back then and treating what was acceptable then as supposed to be universally acceptable. Thirdly, this list of 3 choices was not always comprehensive and you are making an oversimplification by saying that there were always 3 choices: take it or leave it. Do you know about the Constitution of Medina? There was no revert to Islam or pay zijya or fight there. (Also read up on the treaty of Hudaybiyyah.) These 3 choices arose only when due to political (or other) causes war broke out. Soon after the lifetime of the Prophet, Umar (RA) stopped his army from conquering parts of India, despite being in a favorable position to do so, by saying that this was not the goal of Muslims.

There are many Quranic verses such as 18:29, 2:256, 88:21-22, 3:20, 4:137, 39:41 against compulsion. I can give you further examples from the Prophet's life as well, if you wish.

Regards.

A valiant effor, A-ManESL, but I remain far from impressed. You might want to tell your fellow Muslims that there is no compulsion in religion -- for it seems that all too many did not get the memo.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I am still wrestling with why worship is considered a meaningful act. Why would a god want to be worshiped? Why would a god tolerate being the object of worship? It all sounds far too human, imo.

Narcissists love to be worshipped by throngs of vapid groupies.

 

[no-body]

I am still wrestling with why worship is considered a meaningful act. Why would a god want to be worshiped? Why would a god tolerate being the object of worship? It all sounds far too human, imo.

Worshiping could mean acknowledgment. Anyway I wouldn't get too hung up on the words, I think this is where most religious dogma arises people get caught up in meaningless semantic debates.

If you can't call it God then call it higher consciousness or energy or whatever you like.

 

[Kenect2]

If you can't call it God then call it higher consciousness or energy or whatever you like.

I call it mythology, no offense.

 

[YmirGF]

Worshiping could mean acknowledgment. Anyway I wouldn't get too hung up on the words, I think this is where most religious dogma arises people get caught up in meaningless semantic debates.

If you can't call it God then call it higher consciousness or energy or whatever you like.

Let's call it delusion then. May as well call a spade a spade.

 

[Riverwolf]

I am still wrestling with why worship is considered a meaningful act. Why would a god want to be worshiped? Why would a god tolerate being the object of worship? It all sounds far too human, imo.

God doesn't need worship. However, worship is a very calming and humbling act for me.

 

[Riverwolf]

I call it mythology, no offense.

Well, I don't think very many people worship mythology itself. However, many do worship the characters in mythology. But those are just anthropomorphic representations of the Supreme Reality, not the whole Supreme Reality itself.