What do you Know About Islam?

[mohammed_beiruti]

In short you mean to say that any religion other than Islam is deviation from the true path(which is likened to old analogy of mirage).Its fine,I understand your views.

But other religions also have mirage concept.They can tell the same on Islam.

I didn't claim that other relegions (when it was first established) were false.
I am talking about the deviation from the straight path after relegions had been established

Qura'an 42:13 "Consultation"

13. The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).

14. And they became divided only after Knowledge reached them,- through selfish envy as between themselves. Had it not been for a Word that went forth before from thy Lord, (tending) to a Term appointed, the matter would have been settled between them: But truly those who have inherited the Book after them are in suspicious (disquieting) doubt concerning it.

15. Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: "I believe in the Book which Allah has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal

 

[A-ManESL]

The concept of aboragation would seem to pee all over this idea. The concept of religious tolerance in Islam should be regarded as a mere stepping stone to the furthering of Islam, extolled by Muslims when Muslims are in a minority position. Make that minority the majority and tolerance tends to go right out the proverbial window.

Also, the simple fact that the "peace" Muslims perceive, is not quite the same thing that non-Muslims perceive. "Peace" is normally defined, in Muslim terms, as being an end to any obstacles in the way of Islam.

This is incorrect. Might I ask what is the source of your knowledge on Islam?

Here is a letter sent by the Prophet to the monks of Saint Catherine in Mount Sinai, when "he was in power"(as you think), i.e. in Medina.

"This is a message written by Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, far and near, we are behind them. Verily, I defend them by myself, the servants, the helpers, and my followers, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be changed from their jobs, nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they (Christians) are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, this is not to take place without her own wish. She is not to be prevented from going to her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation is to disobey this covenant till the Day of Judgment and the end of the world."

(Source).

And do tell me what verse of the Quran abrogates Quran 2:256 which states that "There shall be no compulsion in religion".

 

[Kerr]

Dear Kerr and riverwolf

I believe that there is a Truth. I think we agree on that.

as I mentioned in OP the the behavior of light differ according to various mediums(ocean billows).

let me add: that some medium causes refraction to light
definition from wikipedia :
"Refraction is the change in direction of a wave due to a change in its speed. This is most commonly observed when a wave passes from one medium to another. Refraction of light is the most commonly observed phenomenon, but any type of wave can refract when it interacts with a medium, for example when sound waves pass from one medium into another or when water waves move into water of a different depth. Refraction is described by Snell's law.

let suppose that various Mediums as synonym to our vrious deeds or beliefs.

because some medium causes a refraction, a "Mirage" is resulted accordingly.


a mirage shows images of things which are elsewhere(from wikipedia)

Sometime someone think that he knows the truth but the medium (the belief) caused a refraction to the light, and made him deviate from the "straight path"
and finally he go to somewhere else.

Qura'an Surat "the light" 24:39
39. But the Unbelievers,--their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: But he finds Allah (ever) with him, and Allah will pay him his account: and Allah is swift in taking account.

However, this is not how it works in reality. What path is right for us depend on who we are, simply because we are different people. The objective straight path you speak of does simply not exist.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Qura'an 42:13 "Consultation"

13. The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).

14. And they became divided only after Knowledge reached them,- through selfish envy as between themselves. Had it not been for a Word that went forth before from thy Lord, (tending) to a Term appointed, the matter would have been settled between them: But truly those who have inherited the Book after them are in suspicious (disquieting) doubt concerning it.

15. Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: "I believe in the Book which Allah has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal

Similarly,Islam can also considered to be distorted after the death of Mohammad(pbuh).

 

[Kenect2]

There. A Qur'anic argument for complete religious tolerance, leaving no excuse for religious intolerance among Muslims.

Right. You only have a few million Muslims to convince that you are correct.

BBC NEWS | Africa | Somali executed for 'apostasy'

There isn't really much reason to think that American Muslims, many of which, I hear (STRESS: I HEAR; I COULD BE WRONG) are far more liberal than Muslims found in the Middle-East.

So, basically, you're going to be optimistic about Islam.

As for the third question, sure, it would have been naive to do nothing and think that all Japanese-Americans were good citizens and not spies, but certainly the treatment they ended up receiving was childish, as well, and dropping the nukes on them was cowardly, and far worse than anything Al-Qaeda has ever done to us or others.

Attacking Japan with nuclear weapons saved many thousands of lives, both American and Japanese. But there isn't much point in debating this fact.

 

[Riverwolf]

Dear Kerr and riverwolf

I believe that there is a Truth. I think we agree on that.

Yes, but I think we disagree on whether or not any person can know it fully.

Have you ever heard the parable of the blind men and the elephant?

as I mentioned in OP the the behavior of light differ according to various mediums(ocean billows).

let me add: that some medium causes refraction to light
definition from wikipedia :
"Refraction is the change in direction of a wave due to a change in its speed. This is most commonly observed when a wave passes from one medium to another. Refraction of light is the most commonly observed phenomenon, but any type of wave can refract when it interacts with a medium, for example when sound waves pass from one medium into another or when water waves move into water of a different depth. Refraction is described by Snell's law.

let suppose that various Mediums as synonym to our vrious deeds or beliefs.

because some medium causes a refraction, a "Mirage" is resulted accordingly.


a mirage shows images of things which are elsewhere(from wikipedia)

Sometime someone think that he knows the truth but the medium (the belief) caused a refraction to the light, and made him deviate from the "straight path"
and finally he go to somewhere else.

Qura'an Surat "the light" 24:39
39. But the Unbelievers,--their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: But he finds Allah (ever) with him, and Allah will pay him his account: and Allah is swift in taking account.

Hence why Jesus said: "By their fruits you shall know them."

The followers of the paths I look onto show me that they have yielded very sweet fruits.

 

[Riverwolf]

Right. You only have a few million Muslims to convince that you are correct.

BBC NEWS | Africa | Somali executed for 'apostasy'

That is not my place. I can only defend the Qur'an, which also mentions, by the way, the futility of trying to convince anyone close-minded of anything different.

So, basically, you're going to be optimistic about Islam.

No, I'm going to try to be realistic, and recognize the fact that there are lots of problems in Islam right now, and that many forms of Islam are based on twisted interpretations which are, sadly, valid because the Qur'an is vague on many subjects, and because of the use of extra-canonical writings as authoritative.

But know this: at my college, I've seen lots of Muslims socializing with non-Muslims: all the time, in fact.

Attacking Japan with nuclear weapons saved many thousands of lives, both American and Japanese. But there isn't much point in debating this fact.

Nah, I already debated till I was blue in the mouth this subject months ago with someone else. Therefore, I will not say anything else, except this: Sadako Sasaki.

 

[Kenect2]

I can only defend the Qur'an,

Why only defend it? Why not look at it realistically?

No, I'm going to try to be realistic, and recognize the fact that there are lots of problems in Islam right now, and that many forms of Islam are based on twisted interpretations which are, sadly, valid because the Qur'an is vague on many subjects, and because of the use of extra-canonical writings as authoritative.

In your unrealistic optimism, you are jumping to the conclusion that certain interpretations are "twisted."

But know this: at my college, I've seen lots of Muslims socializing with non-Muslims: all the time, in fact.

So what?

 

[Breathe]

What do I know about Islam?

A bit (but not enough), yet enough to know:

That it's not for me, especially theologically (I'm not big on "Believe or burn!!!", however one tries to sell it to me) and I'm doubtful it ever will be (but never say never!)
It don't like a lot of ahadith
I don't support shari'a law

I do at the same time like things about Islam. I like the calligraphy and prayer mats, the unified message of brotherhood it brings, Sufism, etc.

I live in a city with a sizeable population of Muslims, and know that they cannot be generalised as a whole I've encountered some truly awful Muslims that have done some pretty shameful acts and I have met some wonderful Muslims (like my doctor and some local shopkeepers and a few people I went to college and university with).



Just my $0.02 from experience

 

[Riverwolf]

Why only defend it? Why not look at it realistically?

I do, only on its own terms, and not literally. However, since I have not studied it in depth, yet, I can only defend it so far.

In your unrealistic optimism, you are jumping to the conclusion that certain interpretations are "twisted."

How am I giving you the impression that I'm being optimistic? I'm trying to be as realistic as I can, just as you are. You don't see me accusing you of being pessimistic, do you?

I've demonstrated that there's an entire Surah in the Qur'an that promotes religious tolerance. Do you not believe the Surah exists or promotes religious tolerance at all?

So what?

So, you're saying the fact that many Muslims are able to get along perfectly with non-Muslims don't count as Muslims?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Hence why Jesus said: "By their fruits you shall know them."

fruits.

fruits: means righteous deeds

Deeds to be considered righteous and accepted from Allah should satisfy two condotions:

1- sincerity (no hypocrisy in doing it) To gain Allah Acceptance
2- compatible with the Law

Mat: 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

My prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is a good sower his message raised fruitful follwers all around the world



Qura'an Ch.48:29 "the victory"
29. Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

:see Mat Ch 13 in regard


finally,put in mind the righteous deeds is not enough to enter heaven. without Allah mercy and forgiveness we can't enter heaven.

 

[kai]

"compassionate amongst each other".
well you don't see much of that in the Islamic world now do you?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

"compassionate amongst each other".
well you don't see much of that in the Islamic world now do you?

:see Mat Ch 13:24-30 in regard

 

[Riverwolf]

fruits: means righteous deeds

Deeds to be considered righteous and accepted from Allah should satisfy two condotions:

1- sincerity (no hypocrisy in doing it) To gain Allah Acceptance
2- compatible with the Law

Mat: 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

My prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is a good sower his message raised fruitful follwers all around the world



Qura'an Ch.48:29 "the victory"
29. Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

:see Mat Ch 13 in regard


finally,put in mind the righteous deeds is not enough to enter heaven. without Allah mercy and forgiveness we can't enter heaven.

That's fine: I'm not interested in heaven.

There has been great fruit for followers from Islam, but I must accept the fact that many are Muslims not through love and devotion, but through fear, either of Allah or of the government. That's not religion: that's tyranny. So while there is good fruit, there is just as much bad fruit. Same with Christianity. That's partially why I chose Sanatana Dharma, because there's far more good fruit than bad in those paths.

I do consider Islam a valid spiritual path of devotion. I do not condemn it, nor do I listen to anti-Islam propaganda. But understand, I don't listen to pro-Islam propaganda, either. When I study a religion, I try to study it on its own terms objectively.

 

[YmirGF]

This is incorrect. Might I ask what is the source of your knowledge on Islam?

There is no single source. It's just my opinion garnered from what I have read from Islamic sources.

Here is a letter sent by the Prophet to the monks of Saint Catherine in Mount Sinai, when "he was in power"(as you think), i.e. in Medina.

That's nice. By putting "he was in power" in quotes are you suggesting that Muhammad did not rule Medina/Yathrib?

And do tell me what verse of the Quran abrogates Quran 2:256 which states that "There shall be no compulsion in religion".

Given that the archangel Gabriel compelled Muhammad to "Recite/Read!" three times, I can say that I do not put a lot of credence into the idea that there is "no compulsion in religion", as apparently, by this single, but significant example - there IS compulsion in Islam.

Then again, by offering an enemy three choices:

1. to "revert" to Islam
2. the pay the jizya and accept Muslim domination - as second class citizens
3. to fight

That sounds very much like compulsion to me. It's not like Muslims gave foes a realistic choice, therefore the concept of "no compulsion" is a paper thin veneer. My guess is that it is an example of the famous Muslim sense of humor and isn't meant seriously.

 

[A-ManESL]

There is no single source. It's just my opinion garnered from what I have read from Islamic sources.

Can you tell me a few of those sources. I think you have made a capital mistake if you have directly read the Quran translation and traditions. I am saying this, because I have an idea of the cultural gap, and the implications it may have. I think you should first read a good book on Islam.

That's nice. By putting "he was in power" in quotes are you suggesting that Muhammad did not rule Medina/Yathrib?

I am putting it in quotes because I believe that your conclusion that the Prophet was ever in power, or ever out of power is wrong. Anyway, that's my belief: No one is ever really in or out of power, (s)he only thinks so.

Given that the archangel Gabriel compelled Muhammad to "Recite/Read!" three times, I can say that I do not put a lot of credence into the idea that there is "no compulsion in religion", as apparently, by this single, but significant example - there IS compulsion in Islam.

Do you believe in this story? If you do not, as being a non-muslim you probably do, then you shouldn't believe in any conclusions that you may infer, either. That seems only fair.

IMHO, you have no idea of what you are talking about. There was no compulsion of the mind, only hesitation was being removed. Even so, tell me if a parent forces his/her child to study would you call it wrong?

Then again, by offering an enemy three choices:
1. to "revert" to Islam
2. the pay the jizya and accept Muslim domination - as second class citizens
3. to fight
That sounds very much like compulsion to me. It's not like Muslims gave foes a realistic choice, therefore the concept of "no compulsion" is a paper thin veneer. My guess is that it is an example of the famous Muslim sense of humor and isn't meant seriously.

First of all (2) was not theoretically unfair, and no treatment as second class citizens was implied. In return of paying jizya, the non-Muslims got the protection of the state, were not obligated to pay zakat, were not obligated to fighting for the state. Secondly, you are entirely failing to take into account the tribal nature of Arab society back then and treating what was acceptable then as supposed to be universally acceptable. Thirdly, this list of 3 choices was not always comprehensive and you are making an oversimplification by saying that there were always 3 choices: take it or leave it. Do you know about the Constitution of Medina? There was no revert to Islam or pay zijya or fight there. (Also read up on the treaty of Hudaybiyyah.) These 3 choices arose only when due to political (or other) causes war broke out. Soon after the lifetime of the Prophet, Umar (RA) stopped his army from conquering parts of India, despite being in a favorable position to do so, by saying that this was not the goal of Muslims.

There are many Quranic verses such as 18:29, 2:256, 88:21-22, 3:20, 4:137, 39:41 against compulsion. I can give you further examples from the Prophet's life as well, if you wish.

Regards.

 

[Metempsychosis]

In fact Muslim scholars have explicitly declared other faiths such as Zoroastrianism, Hinduism etc as legitimate faiths as well; as and when they encountered them.

It may interest you to know that there is a only one non-Abrahamic faith referred to by name in the Quran . It is Magians in Quran 22:17, a faith practiced during those times in the middle East.

Hello,I would say you are not following orthodox Islam.

See how so called scholars normally denigrate other faiths.

This meaning of istikhlaf and this status of the vicegerent, man, constitute the philosophy of the Islamic concept concerning man's status in this universe - the status of vicegerent for the creator of this universe and the creator of this man. The materialist philosophies and civilizations strayed from this understanding when they deified man and made their heroes gods, or made God a man, claiming that he had come down and been incarnated in a man. The first trend is exemplified by the Greeks, who, in the ancient Greek civilization, made their heroes, who were men, gods. The second trend is exemplified in the Romans, who, when they became Christians, put this pagan content in the place of Christianity's original oneness and exaltation of the creator, deifying the Christ, Issa bin Miriam (peace be upon him), claiming that the divinity had entered into his humanity! Both processes, the deification of man and the incarnation of God, stray from the philosophy of vicegerency and make man lord of the universe, rather than the vicegerent for the Lord of the universe!
Straying from the philosophy of vicegerency is what has made man in this materialist civilization, either in its pagan Greek guise or in its western secular guise, give free rein to his freedom, without any restraints or limits or horizons deriving from the heavenly law. If the idea of vicegerency is denied, the restraints, limits and landmarks of the contract of vicegerency are also denied. This is what has created a sort of freedom, in the west, and hence a western democracy which does not respect the religious limits of what is forbidden (haram) and what is allowed (halal) in regulating the freedom of man!
Contrary to this erroneous materialist theory regarding the status of man in this universe, some philosophies connected with the religions invented by man , like the Hindu philosophy of Nirvana and some schools of esoteric and philosophical Sufism, came and denied man any freedom or innate capabilities. They regarded him as despicable and ephemeral, unable to achieve salvation, progress or exaltation except through fatalism and absorption into the absolute or into the being of God/Truth! Through shackling and marginalizing man so excessively, and by denying his freedom, they have strayed from the mediating Islamic conception, which regards man as the vicegerent of God on this earth, commissioned to populate and civilize it. He has been given the qualities necessary to be free and capable. These do not, of course, remove him from the created order and the position of deputy and agent, for he is not the lord of the universe. At the same time, however, they make man more than an object of scorn who will be absorbed into the other, who has no freedom, ability or right of choice.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/91308-islam-story.html

 

[A-ManESL]

Hello,I would say you are not following orthodox Islam.

See how so called scholars normally denigrate other faiths.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/91308-islam-story.html

Hello Anti-Religion. Good day to you. I consider myself to be following orthodox Islam. There is a huge amount of variety of opinions among 25% of the world population so a different opinion is no surprise.
Regarding maros post:
1. What is the source please? Which scholars have said this, or is this her personal opinion. In the latter case I advise you not to use inductive reasoning. In the former, is it an opinion of one scholar or many ; what school of thought does that scholar(s) belong to: wahabi, barelwi etc, what is the relative standing of that one scholar as opposed to the scholars who classified Zoroastrianism/Hinduism as legitimate faiths. I think all these questions are answered before making a conclusion about all of Islam.
2. I did not quote any scholar. I quoted a fact, (for which I believe I have already given you a source). This is also a fact that it was orthodox Islamic scholars who made this judgement.

I have already showed verses from the Quran, traditions of the Prophet that Christianity and Judaism were legitimate faiths. These are not merely to be tolerated, but are de jure religions. (Source).

You can some find my own personal views here, although the article is poorly written.

Regards.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Regarding maros post:
; what school of thought does that scholar(s) belong to: wahabi, barelwi etc, what is the relative standing of that one scholar as opposed to the scholars who classified Zoroastrianism/Hinduism as legitimate faiths. I think all these questions are answered before making a conclusion about all of Islam.
I have already showed verses from the Quran, traditions of the Prophet that Christianity and Judaism were legitimate faiths. These are not merely to be tolerated, but are de jure religions. (Source).

But unfortunately,the wahabi, barelwi etc, are most influential schools today.Still your opinion is really the opinion of 1 in 100 muslims(at least in this forum).

You can some find my own personal views here, although the article is poorly written.

Regards.

I have read that.Thanks.

 

[Kenect2]

How am I giving you the impression that I'm being optimistic?

You are being optimistic due to the fact that you are cherry-picking items from the Quran which support a tolerant interpretation of Islam, and you are denying the fact of reality that most Islamic nations practice some version of Sharia law, which is not tolerant at all. Just because there are some Muslims in your school cafeteria who mingle with non-Muslims does not mean that Islam is a tolerant religion. Projecting your own liberal psychology onto the many Muslims of the world is not realistic, it is wildly optimistic.