Mr Spinkles
Mr
Please tell me that you are not giving the insurgents a pass on your criticism.painted wolf said:
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What did Sadam do that was so wrong?
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Several (not one, but several) of my friends pointed out to me before we went into Iraq that our invassion would most likely lead to the sort of insurgency movement that we have today. As far as I know, not one of my friends is an expert on the Middle East, but they all knew enough about it to tell me that we would be facing a guerilla style war in Iraq. I find it interesting that these non experts could foresee such a thing happening but the "experts" in Washington were predicting that our troops would be received with flowers. Makes me wonder whether people inside the beltway live in an altered universe.
It seems to me that anyone who knows even a little about the Middle East is not at all surprised by the attitude of the region towards American soldiers deployed in a Middle Eastern country.
It seems to me that anyone who knows even a little about the Middle East is not at all surprised by the attitude of the region towards American soldiers deployed in a Middle Eastern country.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Have no fear Mr Spinkles, nothing of the sort. I am saying that all sides the conflict are hypocrits and for one to point at the other and cry foul is rediculous. The insergents are IMHO the puppets of power hungry individuals useing religion and nationalism as tools to blind and bind the insurgents to them. On the same hand I see many of the same tools being used by our side to promote support for the war.
The people using the insurgents were just waiting for the inevitable time that Saddam would be pushed out of power and the country would be desabilized enough to make thier move. When Saddam was in power he was too strong to oppose eaven by insurgent tactics... just look at what happined to the Kurds and anyone elce who stood in his way. The USA is a mighty and terrifying opponant but it is a distant leadership. That makes it easy to rebel against. We do not have spy networks and bribery networks like Saddam had, you can plot all you want in the dark quiet places that we, as outsiders, will never see. We are the perfect people to have an insurgency against. * plus we wont just randomly gass neighborhoods.
I'm more affraid of the rabid raccoon in my backyard than I am of the bear in the woods.
wa:do
The people using the insurgents were just waiting for the inevitable time that Saddam would be pushed out of power and the country would be desabilized enough to make thier move. When Saddam was in power he was too strong to oppose eaven by insurgent tactics... just look at what happined to the Kurds and anyone elce who stood in his way. The USA is a mighty and terrifying opponant but it is a distant leadership. That makes it easy to rebel against. We do not have spy networks and bribery networks like Saddam had, you can plot all you want in the dark quiet places that we, as outsiders, will never see. We are the perfect people to have an insurgency against. * plus we wont just randomly gass neighborhoods.
I'm more affraid of the rabid raccoon in my backyard than I am of the bear in the woods.
wa:do
Mr Spinkles
Mr
And what harsh criticism it turned out to be.painted wolf said:
I have no problem with criticism of our own government, its leaders, and their actions. I agree with most of it. However, I find it peculiar that when confronted with the opportunity to criticize the actions of those thugs over in Iraq, many are perfectly willing to spin the issue.
It hardly surprises me that so many Iraqi expatriots hold a grudge against their fellow Arabs for tolerating Saddam for so long.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Tolerance and fear are two differnet things... Chemical weapons are prefect weapons of fear. Especally if you have a history of using them. I'm not trying to 'spin' this much, just pointing out a fact that we, who are far from any real danger of such things, often forget. (our fear of chemical weapons and thier ilk is media fear and hype for the most part.)
Truth is I can criticize another government till I turn blue and have no effect. I have a better chance to make an impact on my own government. All governments are worthy of criticizim.
Honestly if I were an Iraqi expatriot I would be pissed at the US as well, we have promiced help and then shafted the Iraqi people so many times that its no wonder they weren't expecting much from us this time. The gassing of the Kurds is almost directly the fault of US policies to encourage them to revolt then our pulling our support out from under them at the last moment.
They revolted, we shrugged and Saddam gassed them to death with the weapons we gave him.
No one gets a white horse in this mess.
wa:do
Truth is I can criticize another government till I turn blue and have no effect. I have a better chance to make an impact on my own government. All governments are worthy of criticizim.
Honestly if I were an Iraqi expatriot I would be pissed at the US as well, we have promiced help and then shafted the Iraqi people so many times that its no wonder they weren't expecting much from us this time. The gassing of the Kurds is almost directly the fault of US policies to encourage them to revolt then our pulling our support out from under them at the last moment.
They revolted, we shrugged and Saddam gassed them to death with the weapons we gave him.
No one gets a white horse in this mess.
wa:do
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Then why did you just spend the last three posts criticizing everyone and everything except the insurgents?painted wolf said:
Honestly, it's not that I disagree with you--I think you make some good points. It's just sad that we can't have a discussion about the hypocrisy of insurgents/Iraq's neighbors and stick to the hypocrisy of insurgents/Iraq's neighbors.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
because to talk solely on the hypocracy of one group without mentioning the hypocracy of your own is frankly hypocritical. 
again, I try not one to be a pot calling a kettle black.
wa:do
again, I try not one to be a pot calling a kettle black.
wa:do
Mr Spinkles
Mr
1) The Bush administration is not your group 2) You have not mentioned, much less "talked solely on", the hypocracy of the insurgents in your last three posts. The closest you came was four posts ago when you said "The whole world is filled with hypocracy. Why expect less from the insurgents?"painted wolf said:because to talk solely on the hypocracy of one group without mentioning the hypocracy of your own is frankly hypocritical.
How would you respond if I were to downplay an attempted discussion on the hypocracy of the Bush administration by insisting that "the whole world is filled with hypocracy"?
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
fair enough... what part of thier hypocracy do you want to touch on first?
the fact that they kill more of thier own people in the bombings than they do 'us'.
the fact that they believe that they are fighting a 'holy' cause that is forbidden by thier own holy book?
the fact that they clame to be trying to 'free' their people when 'freedom' means following thier respective puppit master.
the fact that as brave as they are now they were too chicken *poop* to do anything untill after Saddam was safely behind bars
the fact that while thier own people terroize them they insist on saying its just because we are there, and 'at least the streets were safe' when Saddam was in power.
This whole situation disgusts me to no end.
now that I think about it, most of my initial problem with this post is its location, this is a political issue not a religious one. True religion is one of the tools being used in this mess but religion has always been a tool of the power hungry.
wa:do
the fact that they kill more of thier own people in the bombings than they do 'us'.
the fact that they believe that they are fighting a 'holy' cause that is forbidden by thier own holy book?
the fact that they clame to be trying to 'free' their people when 'freedom' means following thier respective puppit master.
the fact that as brave as they are now they were too chicken *poop* to do anything untill after Saddam was safely behind bars
the fact that while thier own people terroize them they insist on saying its just because we are there, and 'at least the streets were safe' when Saddam was in power.
This whole situation disgusts me to no end.
now that I think about it, most of my initial problem with this post is its location, this is a political issue not a religious one. True religion is one of the tools being used in this mess but religion has always been a tool of the power hungry.
wa:do
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
And the congregation shouted "AMEN!"
croak
Trickster
Well, if the US was giving Iraq loads of weapons, and giving no weapons to other Arab countries, I'm thinking that if they did attack, Iraq would beat them all easily, as it would be backed by the US. Same things happened when they tried to get rid of Israel. Big embarrasment. Now, if the US wasn't so "one-sided", things might have turned out differently. For example, Israel have tons of fighter jets. I remember asking my dad how many we had, and he said about 10. 10. And the US seemed to side with the Christians here. That's just great, especially since the Israeli-backed Phalangists (who were Christians, as far as I know) massacared a Palestinian refugee camp in Sabra and Chatila (one area), killing over 700 men, women, and children. So, as far as I can see, the US is the reason for many of the problems here. And you'd think they'd send us some money and help us, instead of giving billions of dollars to Israel and help "finance their agressions" (I read something like that in a book).
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
One person's insurgent is another person's freedom fighter. The difference is only in perspective. Not to say I condone their actions, but I can see where they are coming from, they believe they are defending their country from an outside invader. Not our perpspective, but that is theirs. Who is right?Mr_Spinkles said:
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Maize-- The brother of a friend of mine was a gunner on a Marine humvee. He said that one time, a bus came at their checkpoint at full speed....they blew whistles and horns, and the bus just kept coming. So they opened fire. Afterwords, they found that the bus was rigged with explosives...and full of women and children.
These people aren't freedom fighters--they're thugs, from any perspective.
These people aren't freedom fighters--they're thugs, from any perspective.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
I'm shure that some of them think that they are fighting for thier freedom. That being said only an evil madman would rig a bus of women and children to explode. Though the do get a double victory by killing not only the 'enemy' but providing 'victems' to blame on 'the enemy'.
wa:do
wa:do
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Exactly, pw. It's part of a propoganda war. And Iraq is on its way to self-government...the insurgents want power, not freedom.