What Did Adam and Eve Do Wrong?

[w00t]

Jesus knew it to be true, and according to the Bible he was there for the creation, the world was created by him and for him, and he gave Adam and Eve as an example of the institution of marriage, and his lineage is traced back to Adam in the NT. I believe the whole Bible is the Word of God who cannot lie. Romans says that by the disobedience of one man, Adam, many were made sinners, but by the obedience of one man, Jesus Christ, many are made rigbteous. This is the central theme to the Bible, the fall of man and the redemtion through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I don't think Jesus knew anything of the sort he just accepted the story the same as the rest of the Jews did. I don't think Jesus had anymore knowledge than was available to people of his time!

 

[joeboonda]

Why couldn't Adam and Eve grow without eating from the tree? Being in a state of innocence doesn't imply an inability to grow does it?

I agree, Victor.

 

[gnomon]

That's exactly what Mormons believe. Shall I see about filling the baptismal font?

Slow down there. Just because I played on a Mormon basketball team doesn't mean I'm willing to join the church.

It's a shame that I've probably been more involved with LDS members than any other non-morman yet I'm so ignorant of the church itself. All we knew then was....basketball! This morman church has a basketball court inside. Craziness.

But anyway, yeah. If Adam and Eve had not been kicked out of the garden then God would not have laid out that "punishment" of childbirth and what not.

 

[w00t]

You can't assure me of anything of the sort! You believe that to be true because it is in the Bible that certainly doesn't make it true as it was written by all to fallible human beings!!!!

 

[gnomon]

Are you sure about that? Jesus created everything.

 

[w00t]

Fundamentalist Christians often quote highly cliched verses from Bible, usually taken out of context and they mean very little!

 

[Quiddity]

Because in theory they would understand that they should not disobey Allah, but not in practice. Allah knows that mankind often needs experience to be the teacher, rather than just admonitions and words. By creating the circumstances whereby Adam would in effect disobey Allah, Allah ensured that Adam would understand the choice through experience and not just cuz Allah said. So proper growth of character could not have come through total obedience. One must falter and then succeed as katz said, in order to truly understand.

A little tidbit I learned is that Allah actually wants us to disobey some of these orders because He likes it if we learn from them practically the mistake in not doing things the way He laid them out. This in turn induces us to seek His guidance which He is obliged to give and in turn we grow spiritually. It is a very well laid out plan if I must say so myself.

I disagree.

It’s rather easy to disprove this. Tell me, do you have to commit rape to understand that it's wrong? How about murder? Or perhaps something smaller like stealing? You see, the mind is able to reason to things without actually committing them, so I don’t understand why you think otherwise. Both in theory and in practice, people are able to grow and become wise without ever committing an evil.

 

[Quiddity]

Fundamentalist Christians often quote highly cliched verses from Bible, usually taken out of context and they mean very little!

Only fundamentalist Christians?

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I disagree.

It’s rather easy to disprove this. Tell me, do you have to commit rape to understand that it's wrong? How about murder? Or perhaps something smaller like stealing? You see, the mind is able to reason to things without actually committing them, so I don’t understand why you think otherwise. Both in theory and in practice, people are able to grow and become wise without ever committing an evil.

Actually as sad as it is, some people actually must commit some atrocity in order to perceive it to be wrong not only because someone said so, but because it is wrong on so many levels. The one most common is thieving. A lot of good people will steal stuff, be it small theft or large. Unless and until they get caught though, or something negative happens as a result of the stealing, they may never truly understand how wrong it is. Experience is the best teacher isn't just a cliche it's also true. Allah uses the practical experience to teach. Adam was a new man and as such had no one else's previous experience from which to draw. He had only Allah's word to draw from, but that was not enough. Allah understood that it wasn't enough, that Adam will need to learn the hard way in order to effectively understand. You and I are not the only nor first humans in the world, so we can potentially draw off other's bad experience to know what not to do. Some people though even under these circumstances may not learn except through trial and error.


Also Vic I'm not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to learn in other ways besides practical experience, I'm just saying it is quite a bit more effective in many instances, particularly in the case of Adam and Eve.

 

[Kcnorwood]

AS gods, there is only one God.

Says who?

 

[Katzpur]

I did answer that specific question in my answer you quoted:

Okay, then... "one of us" means one of those who were present at the beginning. I'm not following how that fits into your theology, though. How do you see Adam and Eve as being "one of them"?

 

[lilithu]

Why couldn't Adam and Eve grow without eating from the tree? Being in a state of innocence doesn't imply an inability to grow does it?

Of course innocence doesn't imply an inability to grow. Otherwise, A&E could not have chosen to disobey, could they? It isn't that innocence precludes growth; it's that innocence is lost once growth happens.

Our culture celebrates the innocence of a child. Don't we eventually want our children to grow up? Wouldn't God want Adam and Eve to grow up? To reach they full potentials or at least try.

I disagree.

It’s rather easy to disprove this. Tell me, do you have to commit rape to understand that it's wrong? How about murder? Or perhaps something smaller like stealing? You see, the mind is able to reason to things without actually committing them, so I don’t understand why you think otherwise. Both in theory and in practice, people are able to grow and become wise without ever committing an evil.

I agree that it is quite possible to know that rape is wrong without raping, and it is quite possible to know that murder is wrong without murdering. But I do not believe that it is possible to know right from wrong without ever committing wrong. Perhaps a child does something small like telling a fib or taking someone else's toy. It is only by seeing the pain that the wrong causes others that the child truly learns why wrong is wrong. Otherwise, they're just a computer programed to follow certain rules. Only if there is the capacity to do wrong is there any merit in refraining from doing wrong. And only by doing wrong is it demonstrated that there is the capacity to do wrong.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Of course innocence doesn't imply an inability to grow. Otherwise, A&E could not have chosen to disobey, could they? It isn't that innocence precludes growth; it's that innocence is lost once growth happens.

Our culture celebrates the innocence of a child. Don't we eventually want our children to grow up? Wouldn't God want Adam and Eve to grow up? To reach they full potentials or at least try.


I agree that it is quite possible to know that rape is wrong without raping, and it is quite possible to know that murder is wrong without murdering. But I do not believe that it is possible to know right from wrong without ever committing wrong. Perhaps a child does something small like telling a fib or taking someone else's toy. It is only by seeing the pain that the wrong causes others that the child truly learns why wrong is wrong. Otherwise, they're just a computer programed to follow certain rules. Only if there is the capacity to do wrong is there any merit in refraining from doing wrong. And only by doing wrong is it demonstrated that there is the capacity to do wrong.

You know its utterly ridiculous that I cannot frubal you again..... oh well

 

[Darkness]

It’s rather easy to disprove this. Tell me, do you have to commit rape to understand that it's wrong? How about murder? Or perhaps something smaller like stealing? You see, the mind is able to reason to things without actually committing them, so I don’t understand why you think otherwise. Both in theory and in practice, people are able to grow and become wise without ever committing an evil.

But Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil. They could not know that disobeying was bad/evil.

 

[lilithu]

But Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil. They could not know that disobeying was bad/evil.

Wow. Here I am going on and on but you nailed it. :bow:

 

[Katzpur]

But Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil. They could not know that disobeying was bad/evil.

Speaking of frubals... If you can get Victor to concede this fact, you're in for a ton a frubals from me (My frubal power is pretty big. )

 

[Darkness]

Wow. Here I am going on and on but you nailed it. :bow:

Sometimes you just need a fresh voice.

Speaking of frubals... If you can get Victor to concede this fact, you're in for a ton a frubals from me (My frubal power is pretty big.

Victor, please concede so I get frubals. Pretty please. :shout

 

[lilithu]

You know its utterly ridiculous that I cannot frubal you again..... oh well

lol, I'm essentially still saying the same thing so once is enough. Thank you.

I was pleasantly surprised to see you agree with me. I knew that neither Judaism nor Islam see "the Fall" as the beginning of original sin and depravity. But, at least from the Christian perspective, the idea that the Fall is a good thing - a thing that God both expected and wanted - is a rather radical idea. It's nice to know it's not radical in Islam.

(And yes to all you LDS on this thread, I know - because of learning it before from you guys - that this is standard LDS theology. )

 

[YmirGF]

But Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil. They could not know that disobeying was bad/evil.

Bingo! So much for fairy tales, eh.

 

[Ozzie]

Bingo! So much for fairy tales, eh.

An apple a day keeps the doctor away.