That is the thing that you are claiming is true. Can you demonstrate that it is true?
I could say to look at your own choices and see if they are not your choices.
But really what I "claim" is what I believe and am trying to show that God knowing the future does not bring in a contradiction into us still choosing things.
Perhaps disingenuous was the wrong word. You are aggressively assuming your conclusion.
As I said, I'm not proving my conclusions, just stating my beliefs as opposed to an alternative belief, such as the argument about God's omniscience meaning we cannot have self determination and trying to be logical in showing the "no choice" argument is nonsense.
Circular argument. You are assuming your conclusion.
Not really because the argument for no choice actually says that we do choose between alternatives. (It says we cannot choose anything else except what God wants and so is saying that we do choose) So the argument is self contradictory and I was trying to point that out.
That would mean that God's omniscience has nothing to do with it. But as I said, that is using your logic. So I guess that means you are consistent in seeing the universe as pre determined. I just don't see that pre determinism as applying to creatures who actually choose one path or another. That is something that messes up any determinism in the universe.
I just got an article from
@halbhh which you may or may not find interesting.
But Is Determinism True?
Wow. That is a really interesting sentence.
I like it. And I think I agree.
I agree. In such a universe, the cause (God) of any effect would be unavailable to us. Organized events and objects would appear (to us) to occur spontaneously.
Aside: I think that if we lived in such a universe I would be more likely to believe that a god existed.
What I was saying is that if God could be outside of time and just view it and what happens, that would not take away and lack of causal chains in the universe. If there are none, then there would continue to be none and randomness would still rule even though God could see it and know what would happen.
This is the same with creatures who choose freely. God can view what they will do and not alter their free choice.
It is not that God has created a universe to be a certain way, it is that God has seen what will happen and allows that universe to exist,,,,,,,,,,,,, the universe where free will exists. That's an important distinction imo.
Maybe I misunderstand your point, but your illustration seems to support my position. You proposed a universe that had no apparent cause and effect, right? Whereupon if there were a God who created and knew all of the events in that universe, that the causal chaos would only be apparent, not actual. I think that is what you were saying. Please correct me if I misunderstand.
Yes, you misunderstood.
I did not mean that the lack of causal chains would only be apparent, I meant that God being able to see the future from without, of a universe without causal chains, would not change the fact that there were no causal chains.
Similarly if God sees from without, what we freely choose, that does not change the fact that we freely choose.
And I am saying that there never was an autonomous universe. That such a thing never existed..
If you say that, then I guess the argument about God's omniscience stopping us from being able to freely choose does not apply to you. You are saying that we have never been able to freely choose in the first place. Is that right?
If so, why do you think that?
If I do not answer for a couple of days it is because I will be away, apart from the fact that I am slack of course.
