What causes people to choose what they choose?

[John53]

Would you want to be a robot programmed by God?
I know I would not want to be one. I like being able to choose.

We only have limited choice so sure. Why not?

 

[Nimos]

I understand your point.... We would believe we have free will but in reality we would be like God's puppets on a string.
No thanks. I do not even like God so I don't want to be His puppet.

Well you wouldn't have a choice

Some people just like chocolate. I don't like it much myself, except in cookies, but even then only occasionally.

But in that case we add randomness as well, which causes a lot of new issues, because who decides those?

But a lot of decisions you make every day are based on these things, as you say, if you don't like chocolate, you are more likely to behave in a way so you don't eat it. But regardless, something decided that I like it and you don't and randomness still have to be decided by something. What is the ratio of liking it compared to not liking it? Because a lot of these "random" things are not 50/50, but far from it.

 

[Trailblazer]

We only have limited choice so sure. Why not?

We only have limited choice but I would rather make my own choices than have them made for me.
On the other hand, if I do not make my own choices, and God makes my choices for me, then I would not be responsible for my choices. There are ways in which that is attractive, but it makes no sense because it messes up the whole system of rewards and punishments. If a person does not feel like they are responsible for their choices then they can do just about anything and get way with it.

 

[John53]

We only have limited choice but I would rather make my own choices than have them made for me.
On the other hand, if I do not make my own choices, and God makes my choices for me, then I would not be responsible for my choices. There are ways in which that is attractive, but it makes no sense because it messes up the whole system of rewards and punishments. If a person does not feel like they are responsible for their choices then they can do just about anything and get way with it

The whole system is already messed up. It's only the plebs who follow it, the elite do what they want. It's just a man made system created to control the masses.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well you wouldn't have a choice

No thanks.

But in that case we add randomness as well, which causes a lot of new issues, because who decides those?
But a lot of decisions you make every day are based on these things, as you say, if you don't like chocolate, you are more likely to behave in a way so you don't eat it. But regardless, something decided that I like it and you don't and randomness still have to be decided by something. What is the ratio of liking it compared to not liking it? Because a lot of these "random" things are not 50/50, but far from it.

As I always say, free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these can be considered causes or reasons why we choose one thing or another.

 

[Trailblazer]

The whole system is already messed up. It's only the plebs who follow it, the elite do what they want. It's just a man made system created to control the masses.

What system is messed up?

 

[John53]

What system is messed up?

The free will one we've been talking about

 

[Nimos]

As I always say, free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these can be considered causes or reasons why we choose one thing or another.

I would agree with that, but it doesn't solve the issue with fate.

There are so many different ideas and things here that need to fit together. Obviously we can't just say that free will exist isolated of an idea of things having a fate etc..

 

[Tiberius]

You haven't answered the question. You don't say what actually is causing us to choose what we choose.

I have answered that question MANY times.

I don't know what is causing us to "choose" the one particular course of action that God has foreseen we will do.

My knowledge of the mechanism is not required.

 

[Trailblazer]

The free will one we've been talking about

How does what you said below apply to the free will system and why it is messed up?

You said: It's only the plebs who follow it, the elite do what they want. It's just a man made system created to control the masses.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would agree with that, but it doesn't solve the issue with fate.

There are so many different ideas and things here that need to fit together. Obviously we can't just say that free will exist isolated of an idea of things having a fate etc..

No, we cannot look at free will as isolated from fate because a person's fate is often determined by the free will choices of other people...We are all interconnected, that is a Baha'i belief.

 

[John53]

How does what you said below apply to the free will system and why it is messed up?

You said: It's only the plebs who follow it, the elite do what they want. It's just a man made system created to control the masses.

Oops sorry, meant to type the punishment reward system. Sorry, was going to the computer to google how to repair a pool cleaner, my mind was elsewhere.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oops sorry, meant to type the punishment reward system. Sorry, was going to the computer to google how to repair a pool cleaner, my mind was elsewhere.

You gave a swimming pool? I'll be right over.
Okay, so how is the reward and punishment system just a man made system created to control the masses?

 

[John53]

You gave a swimming pool? I'll be right over.

I'd give it away if I could, had it for 3 years and I've been in it twice but I've spent a lot of time cleaning and maintaining it.

Okay, so how is the reward and punishment system just a man made system created to control the masses?

How else do you think the ruling class get the rest of us to plough their fields and fight their wars.

 

[Brian2]

I understand that you are saying it. But as I have already illustrated, it sets up a contradiction.

When God creates a universe, he necessarily creates it knowing every event of that universe. If he does not know every event, then he is not omniscient.
God has an unbounded choice of universes to create. If he does not have an unbounded choice, then he is not omnipotent.

Among God's choices is a universe where Bob has a ham sandwich for lunch, and another where Bob has a turkey pot pie.
God chose to create the one where Bob has a turkey pot pie.

Therefore the choice was made at the moment of creation by God. Not at the moment of lunchtime by Bob,
Bob is just a meat puppet with the illusion of freewill.

The only way that Bob could have fee will is if he were able to act in a way that contradicts God's knowledge.

That is the same argument but moved on to another universe.
There is no contradiction if we realise that God is not forcing Bob to act in a certain way. All God is doing is observing which way he acts,,,,,,,,,,,,or will act.
God knows what Bob will freely choose to do.
The part that sets up a contradiction is wanting Bob to act in a different way than the way he would choose to act, so you want Bob to act in a way that goes against his free will....................and it is only then, you say, that he can show he has free will.
It is interesting to consider of course how anyone can, without being forced in any way, act against their free will.
Basically it is a non sensical attempts to show God cannot be omniscient while we have free will. But it looks OK and so can be convincing.

 

[Brian2]

I think the answer is free will.

Yes I think you are right. But it is a good question to help someone see that if God is not forcing someone to act a certain way by knowing how they will act, then what does that mean.

 

[Brian2]

I'd give it away if I could, had it for 3 years and I've been in it twice but I've spent a lot of time cleaning and maintaining it.

Same here, 3 years and I have been in it a couple of times. The wife and grand kids get some use however.

 

[John53]

Same here, 3 years and I have been in it a couple of times. The wife and grand kids get some use however.

My wife uses it but she's been overseas for 3 months so it just sits there wasting my time.

 

[Brian2]

My wife uses it but she's been overseas for 3 months so it just sits there wasting my time.

I heared someone say they like the work or cleaning the pool and use it as a relaxing meditation.

 

[John53]

I heared someone say they like the work or cleaning the pool and use it as a relaxing meditation.

They can come relax and clean mine anytime they want. It kills my knees kneeling down on the tiles to get the basket thingy in and out and I usually get a vertigo attack when I stand back up.