What causes people to choose what they choose?

[ppp]

Bob is also a living object that possesses self determination or autonomy.

That is the thing that you are claiming is true. Can you demonstrate that it is true?

I was not disingenuous. God simply observes Bob, the self determining being, determine for himself.
God does not force anything, just observes something that He has known for a long time.

Perhaps disingenuous was the wrong word. You are aggressively assuming your conclusion.

Yes, sorry, you did not express any wants.

Thank you.

What is the logical consequences however is that the omnipotent and omniscient God will know what will happen,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and if you add in that He will also know what His self determining creations will do, if He so chooses to bother, we have part of the logical consequences.

Circular argument. You are assuming your conclusion.

And of course even if God did not create the universe, what is going to happen in the future is set and nobody can change it. That means that we cannot do anything but what the future will be.
That means that it is impossible for self determination, free will, to exist, even without the existence of a God.

I agree.

Free will autonomy can be seen as a lack of cause/effect chains in the universe.

Wow. That is a really interesting sentence. I like it. And I think I agree.

Even if this universe had no cause/effect in it and God could see what was going to happen, that would mean (in your logic) that the autonomy (lack of cause/effect) has been taken away and the universe really had cause/effect all that time.

I agree. In such a universe, the cause (God) of any effect would be unavailable to us. Organized events and objects would appear (to us) to occur spontaneously.

Aside: I think that if we lived in such a universe I would be more likely to believe that a god existed.

Do you see the logic? Maybe not but it is at least as logical as saying that God's knowing what we will do means that we have no free will.

Maybe I misunderstand your point, but your illustration seems to support my position. You proposed a universe that had no apparent cause and effect, right? Whereupon if there were a God who created and knew all of the events in that universe, that the causal chaos would only be apparent, not actual. I think that is what you were saying. Please correct me if I misunderstand.

No logic there at all, just an assertion based on God's knowing what will happen. But God's knowing does not change things, all it means is that God can know about them. It does not make an autonomous universe (lack of cause/effect) into a universe where there is cause/effect. It does not make an autonomous individual into someone without autonomy.

And I am saying that there never was an autonomous universe. That such a thing never existed..

 

[halbhh]

Bob is more than an object that happens to be self-aware. Bob is also a living object that possesses self determination or autonomy.



I was not disingenuous. God simply observes Bob, the self determining being, determine for himself.
God does not force anything, just observes something that He has known for a long time.



Yes, sorry, you did not express any wants.
What is the logical consequences however is that the omnipotent and omniscient God will know what will happen,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and if you add in that He will also know what His self determining creations will do, if He so chooses to bother, we have part of the logical consequences.



And of course even if God did not create the universe, what is going to happen in the future is set and nobody can change it. That means that we cannot do anything but what the future will be.
That means that it is impossible for self determination, free will, to exist, even without the existence of a God.
Free will autonomy can be seen as a lack of cause/effect chains in the universe. Even if this universe had no cause/effect in it and God could see what was going to happen, that would mean (in your logic) that the autonomy (lack of cause/effect) has been taken away and the universe really had cause/effect all that time.
Do you see the logic? Maybe not but it is at least as logical as saying that God's knowing what we will do means that we have no free will.
No logic there at all, just an assertion based on God's knowing what will happen. But God's knowing does not change things, all it means is that God can know about them. It does not make an autonomous universe (lack of cause/effect) into a universe where there is cause/effect. It does not make an autonomous individual into someone without autonomy.

Hi Brain, closely related to all of these discussions is the commonplace idea many have that we are in a Universe where the future will play out in a predetermined way, a 'Clockwork Universe.'

Which is a crucial thing to just assume. And often implicit in any discussion....

I have a background in physics, and tend to use physics terms to explain why modern physics suggests strongly we are not in a deterministic Universe. (not in a clockwork Universe)

But I think it will be good to have a link to explain without much physics terminology, without jargon:

But Is Determinism True?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Couldn't it mean that God is just somehow outside of time and can see what will happen in a non deterministic world just as He could see what someone with free will is going to choose?

That is how I see it.
We determine the future with our choices .. it is just that God can know what we will choose.

 

[halbhh]

That is how I see it.
We determine the future with our choices .. it is just that God can know what we will choose.

Unless, as we read in the common Bible, He does not always know what we will choose.

(Ergo, which must mean He intentionally created us to be unpredictable, by His design.)

 

[halbhh]

As @Trailblazer already said, if he knows everything he would know this. Which is the premise for this whole discussion. So him knowing the result its sort of a given I would say.

Indeed, that's such a key assumption, and...a mistaken one according to the common bible....

 

[muhammad_isa]

Unless, as we read in the common Bible, He does not always know what we will choose.

What about the prophecies in the OT & Book of Revelation?

 

[Nimos]

In other words, it makes no sense to you either.

The 'other things' that you mention are not what we are discussing in this thread.
It is all about "What causes people to choose what they choose?"

Naturally, the free-will issue is not the only thing. There are also psychological issues, as well as experience and maturity .. a number of different things.

No, but you were referring to this particular issue as not being inline with common sense and I gave you some examples of things that doesn't seem to align with common sense either, yet you don't seem to have an issue with these or some of these. Yet, you seem very surprise that none of these makes sense to me, because I don't think any of them have been even remotely explained.

 

[Nimos]

Indeed, that's such a key assumption, and...a mistaken one according to the common bible....

Well I don't know, if I recall correctly the bible does say or strongly imply this. Why do you think that it doesn't?

 

[halbhh]

What about the prophecies in the OT & Book of Revelation?

Isaiah 46 is such a great chapter to give us the precise way God accomplishes the prophecies He has chosen to "bring about". How He intervenes with agents to work to "fulfill" what He wants to be an outcome.

“Remember this, keep it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’

From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do."

Isaiah 46 NIV

 

[halbhh]

Well I don't know, if I recall correctly the bible does say or strongly imply this. Why do you think that it doesn't?

Just reading fully enough.

There are so very many instances, but here is one I think is a lot of fun to quote:

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

And see the post #589 just above for what God does instead of seeing all of some predetermined future -- work day to day in reaction to what shows up, with effort and interventions to "bring about" an outcome He has chosen.

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem is with the use of the word foresaw in the context of free will. You've got a group of critical thinkers saying that that position is incoherent. like the married bachelor, and another group saying that they don't see why it can't occur. One group believes that a deity can do these things anyway, because they have been taught that God is omniscient and granted man free will, therefore they can coexist, and that's the end of the analysis.

No, that is not the end of the analysis. The analysis goes as follows:

Whether an omniscient God exists or not, humans can only make one choice at a time. For example, I cannot choose to (A) go to Europe on vacation and also choose to (B) stay home on vacation, because those are logically contradictory. However, that does NOT mean I could have not chosen either A or B, before I made one of those choices.

Some atheists are saying I could only make one choice (A) because that is the choice that the deity knows I will make, but that is patently illogical because before I made that one choice, I could have chosen A or B.

Let’s say that I chose A, to go to Europe instead of choosing B, staying home.

Before I made choice A (Europe) I could have chosen B (stay home) and there is nothing preventing me from making that choice.

Not one atheist has been able to explain why I could not have chosen either A or B before I chose A, why I have no free will to choose if God is omniscient.

If God exists and is omniscient, as I believe He is, God has always known since the beginning of creation:

1) That I was considering both A and B before I chose A, and
2) That I would choose A

As I have explained to a certain atheist multiple times:

• I could have chosen either A or B.
• If I had chosen A, the deity would have known that I was going to choose A.
• If I had chosen B, the deity would have known that I was going to choose B.

But this atheist just kept repeating the same old mantra, that I did not have a choice, that I had to choose A. However, there is no logical reason why I would have to choose A, and he could not explain why I had to choose A or what caused me to choose A.

``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
I made the choice between A and B myself because I have free will to choose. What God knows has nothing to do with the choices I make, NOTHING. To claim that is patently illogical and it certainly is not the product of a critical thinker.

Knowing something is going to happen is not what causes it to happen. What causes it to happen is when a person makes a choice and acts on it. God’s foreknowledge does not CAUSE the actions of men.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Foreknowledge and free will simply can't exist together, like marriage and bachelorhood, because the two terms are mutually exclusive.

Human foreknowledge and free will cannot coexist together, but I just explained how God’s foreknowledge and human free will can coexist.

I understand that you will never accept this. No theist who believes by faith that they are both possible will. But you can probably also understand why the critical thinker who sees the incoherence of the proposition will never be moved by a believer simply repeating doctrine without reconciling the internal contradiction of the proposition.

For you this continues to be about atheists vs. believers because you think as believers we cannot think our way out of a paper bag and atheists by contrast are critical thinkers.

If you accept what I just explained then you would have to admit you are wrong, that what you perceived as critical thinking has failed in this case, and God forbid, a believer is more logical than you are..

It is the atheists who cannot see that there is no contradiction between human free will and an omniscient God because they cannot think logically. The other reason they cannot see it is because they know nothing about what it means for God to be omniscient, what that implies.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. Apart from the fact that I am an atheist, if I suspend skepticism and accept provisionally that the future can be predicted perfectly, it does not mean that a deity is forcing choices. It means that there are no choices possible but one, which really isn't a choice if it's compelled.

Why would the choice have to be compelled?

If there is no deity, who would be forcing anyone to make choices unless they were incarcerated in a prison?

If there is an omniscient deity, why would the choice be compelled by that deity? Why would my choice to either (A) go to Europe on vacation, or (B) stay home on vacation be compelled by a deity, just because the deity has foreknowledge of which one I will choose?

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Just because God did not EXPECT some things that people did that does not mean God did not KNOW that they were going to do them.

God is all-knowing so that means God knows everything.

Unless God specifically choose to design nature and/or spirit (the latter of which may be 'super' natural and not subject to nature even) -- to be unpredictable. By His choice. By design, from the start.

Nature is unpredictable. In fact, most everything that happens in this world is unpredictable. My point was that God is all-knowing so God has always known everything that will happen in this world, before it was even created.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nimos said: ↑
As @Trailblazer already said, if he knows everything he would know this. Which is the premise for this whole discussion. So him knowing the result its sort of a given I would say.

Indeed, that's such a key assumption, and...a mistaken one according to the common bible....

Where in the Bible does it say that God does not have foreknowledge of the future?
I think you are concluding that because of the way you are interpreting the Bible, what you think it means.
The Old Testament is as anthropomorphic as the day is long. It is not an accurate representation of God or what God knows. Imo.

 

[Nimos]

Just reading fully enough.

There are so very many instances, but here is one I think is a lot of fun to quote:

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

And see the post #589 just above for what God does instead of seeing all of some predetermined future -- work day to day in reaction to what shows up, with effort and interventions to "bring about" an outcome He has chosen.

I agree with you on that

There is no doubt that God changes personality and capabilities throughout the bible. Which is one of the issues with it in general I think, pretty much everything goes in these religious text, it depends which of them you read.

 

[Tiberius]

If you don't know, you don't know
Surely, a logical person could at least make a guess?
Give us a list of possibilities?

So you want me to give you a list of possibilities...

Assuming God exists (which I don't believe), AND assuming the future can be known before it happens (which I also don't believe)?

Why is it my job to come up with a list of answers to this question when I've been very clear that I reject the very basis of the question?

YOU are the one who believes in a God that can see the future, not me, so why don't YOU answer it?

 

[Trailblazer]

So you agree.... But you are contradicting your earlier statements.

Why do you think that? What is the contradiction?

Exactly. So really there's no reason to pay any attention to it.
I can make up an innumerable amount of claims that could be believed which are unfalsifiable. It's utterly meaningless.

No, there's no reason for you to pay any attention to it but there are reasons why I believe it.
I do not need proof because I have evidence.

Yes, you could make up an innumerable amount of claims that could be believed which are unfalsifiable and these claims might be false, but that does not mean that all unfalsifiable claims are false. They might be true or false or unknown between true or false, or they might be unknowable. There is more than one possibility.

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,

1. true
2. false
3. unknown between true or false
4. being unknowable (among the first three).[1]

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

However, if you choose to believe only in claims that can be proven true, that is your prerogative.

They seem nonsensical, because they are nonsensical. You just admitted such also, by saying that they are "just religious beliefs" with no evidence.

No, I did not say there is not evidence, I said there is no proof. Evidence is not proof.

Again, I can make up an innumerable amount of such claims / beliefs and they would have the same merit.

"an undetectable dragon is going to eat you unless you wrap yourself in tinfoil".

That statement would seem non-sensical to you, right?
It has the same merit and basis as your religious claim of "god being outside of time" and whatnot.
Which is to say: no merit and no basis.

No, there is no proof that God is outside of time because there is not even any proof that God exists. I believe that God exists and is what is recorded in scriptures because there is evidence that supports the claims of the Messenger of God.

Just like it "makes sense" to the undetectable dragon believer that you need to protect yourself from it by wrapping yourself in tinfoil.

The only reason it "makes sense", is because you start with the assumption that the belief is accurate. That is the only reason.

I did not assume the belief was true before looking at the evidence that supports the belief.
Everything else followed from there.

We've been over this. How many times are you going to come back to this strawman?
I've already stated multiple times that in no way am I suggesting otherwise.

It is not a straw man because I was not misrepresenting your position, I was only stating my own position.

Because of the deterministic forces of physics.
Now consider the part you seem to be missing: suppose the orbit of planets / moon were not a matter of deterministic forces like gravity, but rather the result of the free choice of movement from those planets. Do you think astronomers would still be able to predict an eclipse?

The answer, off course, is NO.

Because when you add "free will" as a factor, you can no longer know with certainty what the movement will be like in the future.

That's true. I never claimed that humans can know the future, I only ever said that 'I believe' that God knows the future.

 

[halbhh]

Nature is unpredictable. In fact, most everything that happens in this world is unpredictable. My point was that God is all-knowing so God has always known everything that will happen in this world, before it was even created.

Not if He, in His wisdom, chose to design Nature so that it does not -- does not -- have a clockwork future that is already pre-set. So that there is no already existing (already predetermined) future. So that the future does not exist. So that nothing exists until it happens.

( like Quantum Mechanics for a particle -- not having an already existing predetermined state until the observation/interaction....)

God making the Universe a lot more interesting and enjoyable it would seem. By His choice.

There is no doubt that God changes personality and capabilities throughout the bible.

'I think you are concluding that because of the way you are interpreting the Bible, what you think it means.'

Better is to read it with a neutral attitude, without a thesis, to just see what is there, in spite of theories and ideas people came up with about it.

 

[Nimos]

'I think you are concluding that because of the way you are interpreting the Bible, what you think it means.'

Better is to read it with a neutral attitude, without a thesis, to just see what is there, in spite of theories and ideas people came up with about it.

Well I already did.

But both things are mentioned in it, you don't need someone to tell you that in my opinion

 

[Trailblazer]

Not if He, in His wisdom, chose to design Nature so that it does not -- does not -- have a clockwork future that is already pre-set. So that there is no already existing (already predetermined) future. So that the future does not exist. So that nothing exists until it happens.

( like Quantum Mechanics for a particle -- not having an already existing predetermined state until the observation/interaction....)

God making the Universe a lot more interesting and enjoyable it would seem. By His choice.

I was not saying I believe the future is predetermined. I do not believe that the future exists until it happens. All I was saying is that I believe that God has perfect foreknowledge of the future, so God knows everything that will ever happen before it happens.