That is the thing that you are claiming is true. Can you demonstrate that it is true?Bob is also a living object that possesses self determination or autonomy.
Perhaps disingenuous was the wrong word. You are aggressively assuming your conclusion.I was not disingenuous. God simply observes Bob, the self determining being, determine for himself.
God does not force anything, just observes something that He has known for a long time.
Thank you.Yes, sorry, you did not express any wants.
Circular argument. You are assuming your conclusion.What is the logical consequences however is that the omnipotent and omniscient God will know what will happen,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and if you add in that He will also know what His self determining creations will do, if He so chooses to bother, we have part of the logical consequences.
I agree.And of course even if God did not create the universe, what is going to happen in the future is set and nobody can change it. That means that we cannot do anything but what the future will be.
That means that it is impossible for self determination, free will, to exist, even without the existence of a God.
Wow. That is a really interesting sentence. I like it. And I think I agree.Free will autonomy can be seen as a lack of cause/effect chains in the universe.
I agree. In such a universe, the cause (God) of any effect would be unavailable to us. Organized events and objects would appear (to us) to occur spontaneously.Even if this universe had no cause/effect in it and God could see what was going to happen, that would mean (in your logic) that the autonomy (lack of cause/effect) has been taken away and the universe really had cause/effect all that time.
Aside: I think that if we lived in such a universe I would be more likely to believe that a god existed.
Maybe I misunderstand your point, but your illustration seems to support my position. You proposed a universe that had no apparent cause and effect, right? Whereupon if there were a God who created and knew all of the events in that universe, that the causal chaos would only be apparent, not actual. I think that is what you were saying. Please correct me if I misunderstand.Do you see the logic? Maybe not but it is at least as logical as saying that God's knowing what we will do means that we have no free will.
And I am saying that there never was an autonomous universe. That such a thing never existed..No logic there at all, just an assertion based on God's knowing what will happen. But God's knowing does not change things, all it means is that God can know about them. It does not make an autonomous universe (lack of cause/effect) into a universe where there is cause/effect. It does not make an autonomous individual into someone without autonomy.