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What are the Spiritual qualities of Evolution?

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
doppelgänger;815691 said:
Continue . . .
Example: I have specific childhood neuro-associations that are strong and deeply ingrained in my psychological state. Let's say someone taps me on my shoulder while I am in a deep state of sadness/crying for a lost loved one. He startles me, and from hence forth I attach taps on my shoulder to sadness. In this case it would be hard for me to move away from pain because I can't see the taps coming from behind me. If I could, I would seize to attach pain to taps on my shoulder. But at the moment, it is my innate need to move toward pleasure and away from pain that directs it. Now this just happens to be something I'm aware of. There could be hundreds of different attachments that are subconscious and difficult for "self" to catch.

Now, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that we must detach ourselves from everything. Because as I pointed out, it's against our nature and impossible to do. Instead, I think we need to come to realize our attachments and align them properly. What is properly? Well, that’s for another thread.

That clarify? :eek:
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
You agree that "it may not", meaning, of course, that you cling to a sense that it is. But the fact that you invest evolution with wishful qualities says far more about you than about a process that is as indifferent to your desires as it is to your progress.

Of course it says a lot about me! But that does not make my speculation or imaginative interpretation of it within the bounds of my individuality immoral in any way. If I wish, I can add deeper meaning to evolution, the Big Bang, life, death, gravity, desire, happiness, or any other scientifically verifiable idea--despite there not being any objective truth to it.

The fact that I do, as well any other person relates a difference on how we see the world. I do not look at the world as strictly logical. I see it as poetic and brimming with meaning. And it is! It does because it is the world I experience through the brain that was created by it. Indifferent? Perhaps (another "may"), but it's irrelevant.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
There could be hundreds of different attachments that are subconscious and difficult for "self" to catch.

That clarify? :eek:

Yes, I think so. I wrote something similar a while back:

From my blog, "Metaphor & Misunderstanding":

The function of language is relational. But for it to function relationally requires a fixed concept. That fixed concept is subjective experience. On the most fundamental level, it is the raw experience of sensory input fixed as a concept built on the first instinctive interpretation of those raw feels: pleasure/pain/privation. Thus, "I" is born as the imagined object to which sensations of pleasure/pain/privation occur, and the imagined creative consciousness which gives them order and meaning. This is reinforced through socialization until this "experiencing I" becomes fixed and concrete, i.e. "I" as a "thing" becomes unquestionably real.

What the construct aware or the mystic realizes is that this fixed concept can't be anything but symbolic. Self cannot be experienced in any way other than its relation to objects and doings constructed by social reality, which necessarily makes it symbolic. Who or what "understands" and uses these symbols? It seems inordinate and paradoxical, but nothing understands the symbols. To "understand" them would require the loss of the fixed concept of self, and then there'd be no fixed concept for the social reality by which such an "understanding" could be expressed or ordered in thought and language.

At the simplest and earliest stage of language acquisition, self is the product of the experience of dependence on social reality to meet a need. That social reality is built upon the instinctual. A baby needs food and it cries, whether it "understands" the reason it cries or not. The crying brings food, and the experience is stored in memory. The memory, which is the relationship between crying and getting the food, is strengthened by repetition. What is the relation? The fixed experience of a privation (hunger) is associated with a doing (crying) and an external object (food) and the illusion of power in the cry is created by this relational memory. By taking on an illusion of power, the cry has become a symbol. It now has social reality.

Social reality then gradually begins requiring a more sophisticated "form" to the cry to satisfy the need. The child repetitively hears, "Say, 'mama' and I'll give you the cookie." At this stage, the child may have no fixed relational memory to associate the symbols "mama" or "cookie." But the language process (form) is to build a stored relational memory that the sensory experience associated with the symbol "cookie" brings an instinctive pleasure (or absence of privation). Thus, the child can be conditioned to develop its cry into "Mama. Cookie." even though the fixed relational point of the child's experience of self is still little more than the sensory experience of a privation, and corresponding illusion of power of thought projected into reality reinforced by relating "Mama. Cookie." to the chemically stimulated pleasure of tasting sugar, chocolate and flour and the negation of the privation of hunger.

Arguably, the experience of pleasure/pain/privation is all identity ever really is despite the complex means by which we expand identity to better achieve pleasure, and minimize pain. This storing of relational memories by associating a doing with an object, and an object with a privation or pleasure is the foundational "form" of social reality. From there, the relationships between objects become more sophisticated as instinct and survival drive the need for a more developed social reality. The experience of pleasure and privation concretizes in self identity. Objects relationally associated with one another through memory of their specific traits (as those traits themselves take on a symbolic power associated with pleasure and privations) become abstractions based on those traits, and become common nouns instead of proper ones. I gradually learn the useful traits that give the symbol "cookie" its power in social reality. Eventually, I remember the relationship between a set of traits that determine what is and is not a "cookie."

It's all about method and form rather than content. The content is never "understood" because the sine qua non of thought is always the form or method of connecting abstractions of language from subjective experiences to create social reality. As Cassirer tells us: "Instead of devoting itself to particular things and events, thought seeks and apprehends a totality of relations and connections; instead of material details, a world of laws opens up to it. Through the 'form' of signs, through the possibility of operating with them in a definite way and combining them in accordance with fixed and constant rules, the character of theoretical self-certainty opens up to thought."
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Let us assume that the concept-theory of Evolution as presented by scientific orthodoxy is an indisputible fact: as in, It Happened and IS Happening and we all know it (somehow...depending on whose "evidence" you're prepared to accept, I suppose)

Now, what, if any, are the spiritual qualities of it? How does/can Evolution as both a factual premise and an intellectual reference point enhance, nourish and feed our human Spirit?
Evolution has no more bearing on spirituality than the theory of gravity.



If a person chooses to view, philosophically, Evolution as a sort of "progression" towards some other (higher?) State of (human?) Being, is this of value? If so, why? If not, why?
Who am I to say whether it's of "value" for people to believe that we are progressing towards some higher state? If it is of value for the individual believer, fine. But I would be quick to point out that the "evolution" of which they are speaking has nothing to do with the scientific theory of evolution which makes no judgment whatsoever of "progress."

In fact, if I were to draw "spiritual lessons" from evolutionary theory - and it would be just me reading meaning into a theory that does not make a value judgment either way - I would say that the theory as articulated says that we are all EQUAL - whether amoeba or chimps or humans or dandelions. Any ranking of "more or less progressed" would be invalid.
 

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
I've been in awe of the beauty and complexity of life before. If you want to call that a "spiritual" experience, fine. However, the word "spiritual" is misleading. I don't have a spirit or a soul to "feed", but I do have emotions and every now and then I do feel humble or at peace due to some of the discoveries of science.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
I've been in awe of the beauty and complexity of life before. If you want to call that a "spiritual" experience, fine. However, the word "spiritual" is misleading. I don't have a spirit or a soul to "feed", but I do have emotions and every now and then I do feel humble or at peace due to some of the discoveries of science.
For me "spirituality" is about making meaning, not about supernatural spirits. For example, we make a distinction between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. The former being what was really intended - the meaning - instead of a legalistic adherence to the rules. In that case, no one is talking about supernatural spirits. There used to be a phrase "the Spirit of '76" which referred to the meaning/intent behind the Declaration of Independence. Again, it had nothing to do with supernaturalism. And then there's school spirit, team spirit, in the spirit of cooperation...
 

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
For me "spirituality" is about making meaning, not about supernatural spirits. For example, we make a distinction between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. The former being what was really intended - the meaning - instead of a legalistic adherence to the rules. In that case, no one is talking about supernatural spirits. There used to be a phrase "the Spirit of '76" which referred to the meaning/intent behind the Declaration of Independence. Again, it had nothing to do with supernaturalism. And then there's school spirit, team spirit, in the spirit of cooperation...

Well I'd say evolution doesn't give us meaning. We have the luxury of making up our own.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Evolution has no more bearing on spirituality than the theory of gravity.
I quite agree.

For me "spirituality" is about making meaning, not about supernatural spirits. For example, we make a distinction between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. The former being what was really intended - the meaning - instead of a legalistic adherence to the rules. In that case, no one is talking about supernatural spirits. There used to be a phrase "the Spirit of '76" which referred to the meaning/intent behind the Declaration of Independence. Again, it had nothing to do with supernaturalism. And then there's school spirit, team spirit, in the spirit of cooperation...

Good point; spirituality is the goal to achieve.

I have to disagree with you about spirits though, although they are natural - nothing is supernatural....:p
 

d.

_______
from the gospel of thomas :

(29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
from the gospel of thomas :

(29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

Why do/did the Gnostics dislike the physical so much?


Yeah, yeah, I know. Demiurge, imperfect creation... So what if it's imperfect? Why does that make it bad?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
The simple answer is this, a human form has more options available to it than a simple plant or animal so we are the preferred vehicle for a soul to experience the material dimension.

But the real connection between spirit and evolution has nothing to do with the minor evolutionary changes in DNA caused by evolution that have occured while our species has existed on the earth.

It has to do with a new idea for a being, one more detached from spirit influence than any before, a being that is inherently selfish. How does this being ever adopt altruism?

There is no reason for it to exist in us. The universe is watching with wide eyes at our real evolution which is spiritual growth. We can have faith. We can be good for no return benefit. God is at work in us, through us, in subtle, mostly undetected ways.

And the rest of the universe is watching and learning.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
There are many dimensions. In these other dimensions are beings (souls) who have ascended from the material dimension. They are continuing to learn about the incredible universe and they are advancing their understanding of God and as they do they move up in the dimensions and make their way closer and closer to heaven.

They are the ones who are very interested in us, not other material beings who have no way of knowing we are even here.
 
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