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What are the Central Positive Messages you Learned from the Quran?
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
Scimitar
Eschatologist
please explain to me, what you term as the Golden Rule? Stop being vague. You aint William Hague 
Be Charitable? Did you know that Muslims give 2.5% of their net assets to charity every year? And that is compulsory, after that we have sadaqah - which translates to optional charity, and we go beyonf the call of duty there too...
...take for example, the UK statistic for which group of people contribute the most to charities: Muslims ‘are Britain’s top charity givers’ | The Times
As you can see, we've outshone everyone else... next point.
Don't hit people - this doesn't even require a religious ruling, this is bloody common sense - and our parents teach us this in infancy, we grow up knowing how to treat others as we would like to be treated. But - if you want Islamic references for these points - I will spam this thread with them, just say the word. Next:
Love everyone: The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said "Love for your brother what you love for yourself" - a companion of his asked him "Is that my brother in Islam?" and the prophet Muhammad replied "No, your brothers in humanity" - meaning, we do not pick and choose who we love based on our own religious affiliation.
Icehorse - I can't believe you asked those basic questions, knowing full well how kindergarten they were.
Scimi
Be Charitable? Did you know that Muslims give 2.5% of their net assets to charity every year? And that is compulsory, after that we have sadaqah - which translates to optional charity, and we go beyonf the call of duty there too...
...take for example, the UK statistic for which group of people contribute the most to charities: Muslims ‘are Britain’s top charity givers’ | The Times
As you can see, we've outshone everyone else... next point.
Don't hit people - this doesn't even require a religious ruling, this is bloody common sense - and our parents teach us this in infancy, we grow up knowing how to treat others as we would like to be treated. But - if you want Islamic references for these points - I will spam this thread with them, just say the word. Next:
Love everyone: The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said "Love for your brother what you love for yourself" - a companion of his asked him "Is that my brother in Islam?" and the prophet Muhammad replied "No, your brothers in humanity" - meaning, we do not pick and choose who we love based on our own religious affiliation.
Icehorse - I can't believe you asked those basic questions, knowing full well how kindergarten they were.
Scimi
Eh oh Scimitar,
My post was in answer to DawudTalut's examples, post #278. For the most part his examples don't strike me as particularly positive. They are more of the "carrot and stick", threatening variety.
Now, I REALLY LIKE that you said "kindergarden variety". Hooray! I agree, this sort of positive message is NOT the domain of any religion, this is in the the domain of moral truths that we all know in spite of any religion.
My post was in answer to DawudTalut's examples, post #278. For the most part his examples don't strike me as particularly positive. They are more of the "carrot and stick", threatening variety.
Now, I REALLY LIKE that you said "kindergarden variety". Hooray! I agree, this sort of positive message is NOT the domain of any religion, this is in the the domain of moral truths that we all know in spite of any religion.
Scimitar
Eschatologist
you've told us that you don't see them as positive, without explaining why... care to explain the "WHY" now?
See Ice, I can easily say "I think the world is a reflection of the moon" but without explaining why - my comment is perceived as nonsensical.
In the interest of true and honest debate and discussion - please make yourself CLEAR in your posts, so as to avoid coming off like a negator without cause.
Thank you,
Scimi
See Ice, I can easily say "I think the world is a reflection of the moon" but without explaining why - my comment is perceived as nonsensical.
In the interest of true and honest debate and discussion - please make yourself CLEAR in your posts, so as to avoid coming off like a negator without cause.
Thank you,
Scimi
Scimitar,
Let me try...
There is no "positive message" here. Seeking refuge means someone if afraid. Positive messages should primarily be about actions a person can take to help others. For example "be charitable" would be a positive message. "Be charitable" message implies a positive action.
Maybe, but this seems self-congratulatory. The Quran is "claiming" to be wonderful, but where is the evidence? Also, this is a carrot and stick mentality. "If you're good, you'll get a treat". This sort of external reward system was shown by Skinner to have many negative consequences. This approach is used by bad or inexperienced managers. This hardly qualifies as "perfect moral advice". This is advice from amateurs.
I see no positive message in the above?
This sets up a division between people. "Us vs. them". Again, not a positive message.
Here the creator of the universe seems to be saying that he created some people just so that he could torment them, how is that positive? I would say this is more like threatening, cruel, and coersive.
similar to earlier, the above is creating division between people, "us vs. them".
maybe this is okay? but what's positive about turning away from people?
this seems neutral at best. i don't see any positive messages in this.
==
Ok, I can probably summarize my orientation with one example:
Imagine you are doing business with two business owners. They both seem honest and fair.
You also know that owner #1 is honest and fair because he truly loves his fellow man, and he is motivated by compassion.
You also know the owner #2 is honest and fair because the Quran told him that if he isn't, Allah will punish him.
Personally, I would choose to do business with owner #1 and I would be skeptical of owner #2.
Let me try...
There is no "positive message" here. Seeking refuge means someone if afraid. Positive messages should primarily be about actions a person can take to help others. For example "be charitable" would be a positive message. "Be charitable" message implies a positive action.
Maybe, but this seems self-congratulatory. The Quran is "claiming" to be wonderful, but where is the evidence? Also, this is a carrot and stick mentality. "If you're good, you'll get a treat". This sort of external reward system was shown by Skinner to have many negative consequences. This approach is used by bad or inexperienced managers. This hardly qualifies as "perfect moral advice". This is advice from amateurs.
I see no positive message in the above?
This sets up a division between people. "Us vs. them". Again, not a positive message.
Here the creator of the universe seems to be saying that he created some people just so that he could torment them, how is that positive? I would say this is more like threatening, cruel, and coersive.
similar to earlier, the above is creating division between people, "us vs. them".
maybe this is okay? but what's positive about turning away from people?
this seems neutral at best. i don't see any positive messages in this.
==
Ok, I can probably summarize my orientation with one example:
Imagine you are doing business with two business owners. They both seem honest and fair.
You also know that owner #1 is honest and fair because he truly loves his fellow man, and he is motivated by compassion.
You also know the owner #2 is honest and fair because the Quran told him that if he isn't, Allah will punish him.
Personally, I would choose to do business with owner #1 and I would be skeptical of owner #2.
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
Important note
The citizens of the Islamic State are not equal in rights and duties
Because non-Muslims call it the dhimmi
This is not a dhimmi rights such as the rights of Muslims
It is considered second class citizens
Duties of the dhimmi is paying tribute to the House of money
Is this considered a positive message of Islamic
The citizens of the Islamic State are not equal in rights and duties
Because non-Muslims call it the dhimmi
This is not a dhimmi rights such as the rights of Muslims
It is considered second class citizens
Duties of the dhimmi is paying tribute to the House of money
Is this considered a positive message of Islamic
Scimitar
Eschatologist
I agree, brother DawudTalut hasn't made the best case for a positive message with those verses - but I think you've missed the point here brother Ice.
If you allow me, I will explain.
Brother DawudTalut was trying to let you understand the methodology of reading the Quran. He posted a verse from the Quran in order to explain it. Here it is:
Al-Nahl Chapter 16 : Verse 99
And when thou recitest the Qur’an, seek refuge with Allah from Satan the rejected.
Every Muslim, before reciting the Quran, says "I seek refuge in Allah from satan the accursed". This is because the Quran, is full of literal and some allegorical verses and the following verse explains why:
Al Imran Chapter 3 : Verse 7
He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ - as well as others that are allegorical. Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning. Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.
Satan will try to confuse those who read the Quran, and so - it is mandatory practice for every Muslim to say "I seek refuge in Allah from satan the accursed" before reciting any Quran passages.
And when non Muslims read the Quran, they are more prey to the underlined part of the verse above than not.
Knowing this - DawudTalut and I, find it saddening that you seek out the negative interpretations of the allegorical without knowledge - and have quoted verses out of context in the past... itn reminds us of the other verses you posted in your last post. Saddening indeed that you would be the one who is seen as someone who is outside of the grace of God because you choose to be. And so, the veil which appears, is one which God created to be - but one which you chose to wear...
saddening indeed.
If you try to learn something, brother Ice, you learn it earnestly, sincerely - I would not expect you to learn quantum theory without a sound understanding in physics. The Quran itself, is really something to behold in its original language, the fus'haa Arabic and the translations do it no justice. And you probably don't even have an inclination to learn a little of the language. Instead, we'd rather end up here
arguing?If you really are going to invest such a time here in this forum, why not wonder if you are actually using your time wisely... and if these Islam based topics really are something which bugs you - why not invest your time investigating Islam and the Quran, properly? Why not learn the language and see what you understand after a few years? You'll end up further than a forum post with more ears attentive, I guarantee you that
Scimi
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Hi Scimitar,
As we've agreed in the past, one good path is to study as you are doing.
But I believe we should also acknowledge the power of Occam's razor, i.e. "often the simplest explanation is the best".
I completely believe that through your studies you have derived a peaceful message from Islamic scripture. But you represent a rare case. The more common case, the one that troubles me, is the situation that happens when the scripture is taken at face value. It is consistent with the great scientific approach called Occam's razor, to take things at face value.
I would argue that ISIS is EXACTLY taking the Quran at face value, and that they are NOT doing the kind of study that Scimitar is recommending. In other words:
ISIS is what you get when you apply Occam's razor to Islamic scripture.
This is the problem I'm worried about.
And Scimitar, BTW, I just bought a big, complicated book about Muhammad, and I asked in another thread if Muslims felt this would be a good book for me to study. IF you have an opinion, please tell me. And also, if you know of a less huge book on Muhammad that would be good, tell me that too!
As we've agreed in the past, one good path is to study as you are doing.
But I believe we should also acknowledge the power of Occam's razor, i.e. "often the simplest explanation is the best".
I completely believe that through your studies you have derived a peaceful message from Islamic scripture. But you represent a rare case. The more common case, the one that troubles me, is the situation that happens when the scripture is taken at face value. It is consistent with the great scientific approach called Occam's razor, to take things at face value.
I would argue that ISIS is EXACTLY taking the Quran at face value, and that they are NOT doing the kind of study that Scimitar is recommending. In other words:
ISIS is what you get when you apply Occam's razor to Islamic scripture.
This is the problem I'm worried about.
And Scimitar, BTW, I just bought a big, complicated book about Muhammad, and I asked in another thread if Muslims felt this would be a good book for me to study. IF you have an opinion, please tell me. And also, if you know of a less huge book on Muhammad that would be good, tell me that too!
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Scimitar
Eschatologist
with regard to ISIS - the leaders of the Islamic world have all cited that ISIS/ISIL/IS or whatever they are calling themselves now - are NOT acting in the name of Islam or the Quran, but acting out of their own desires... there is nothing they have done which can actually be justified using the Quran and Hadeeth, therefore, the observations of people such as yourself are nothing more than a deception played out within your own minds.
You claim I am a rare case - truth is, I am the Norm... think about it - 1.7billion Muslims on this planet - 6billion humans - Muslims make up 1/5th of the populus - if we were all like ISIS - dude - you wouldn't even be alive.
There is your logically explained proof that I am the norm. Not the exception. It seems to me that you arfe holding the actions of the minority to be reflective of the majority - that's very much like saying "All Germans are anti-semitic because Hitler killed 6million Jews" - you see how very simple this view is, and yet - how it represents a convenient lie? Exactly. Occams Razor only works when the evidence is stacked up neatly in favour of it - in relation to this thread, it doesn't even stick.
Which book did you get? The Sealed Nectar?
Scimi
You claim I am a rare case - truth is, I am the Norm... think about it - 1.7billion Muslims on this planet - 6billion humans - Muslims make up 1/5th of the populus - if we were all like ISIS - dude - you wouldn't even be alive.
There is your logically explained proof that I am the norm. Not the exception. It seems to me that you arfe holding the actions of the minority to be reflective of the majority - that's very much like saying "All Germans are anti-semitic because Hitler killed 6million Jews" - you see how very simple this view is, and yet - how it represents a convenient lie? Exactly. Occams Razor only works when the evidence is stacked up neatly in favour of it - in relation to this thread, it doesn't even stick.
Which book did you get? The Sealed Nectar?
Scimi
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Hi Scimitar,
I suspect that most Muslims don't study their own ideology very much at all. I think you're rare in that I suspect you're in the upper percentile in terms of actual knowledge of the scripture.
In fact, I would guess specifically that most Muslims have not read the Quran. Instead they've learned a few verses here and there. And I'd agree that most Muslims are moderate and peace loving.
So, we can arbitrarily create three categories of people:
1 - those who know very little about Islamic scripture (e.g. they haven't read the Quran)
2 - those who have done enough studying to know the basics of Islam (like me)
3 - Islamic scholars (such as yourself)
This thread is about Islam, specifically the Quran. It's not about Muslims.
So if a person is in category 1, they could say "here's what I've heard about positive messages in the Quran". But since they haven't read it, that's really all they can say.
If a person is in category 2, my claim is that, using Occam's razor, the Quran is not a peaceful book.
If a person is in category 3, my claim is that that person must also suspend Occam's razor to derive peaceful messages from the book.
For example, whenever I say "verse X sounds violent and intolerant", the Islamic scholar says: "oh you have to consider the context of this other verse over here and then you have to remember what happened in the previous battle and then don't forget how society was 1400 years ago..."
All of this scholarly explanation is a suspension of Occam's razor.
==
As far as books, I got the Guillaume translation of Ibn Ishaq's biography - it's too much hard work.
I just ordered Karen Armstrong's: "Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet"
I suspect that most Muslims don't study their own ideology very much at all. I think you're rare in that I suspect you're in the upper percentile in terms of actual knowledge of the scripture.
In fact, I would guess specifically that most Muslims have not read the Quran. Instead they've learned a few verses here and there. And I'd agree that most Muslims are moderate and peace loving.
So, we can arbitrarily create three categories of people:
1 - those who know very little about Islamic scripture (e.g. they haven't read the Quran)
2 - those who have done enough studying to know the basics of Islam (like me)
3 - Islamic scholars (such as yourself)
This thread is about Islam, specifically the Quran. It's not about Muslims.
So if a person is in category 1, they could say "here's what I've heard about positive messages in the Quran". But since they haven't read it, that's really all they can say.
If a person is in category 2, my claim is that, using Occam's razor, the Quran is not a peaceful book.
If a person is in category 3, my claim is that that person must also suspend Occam's razor to derive peaceful messages from the book.
For example, whenever I say "verse X sounds violent and intolerant", the Islamic scholar says: "oh you have to consider the context of this other verse over here and then you have to remember what happened in the previous battle and then don't forget how society was 1400 years ago..."
All of this scholarly explanation is a suspension of Occam's razor.
==
As far as books, I got the Guillaume translation of Ibn Ishaq's biography - it's too much hard work.
I just ordered Karen Armstrong's: "Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet"
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Scimitar
Eschatologist
Get lesley hazletons book. Shes an agnostic jewish lady and I admire her method of study and delivery. She was featured on TEDx.
Writer Lesley Hazleton is the author of 'The First Muslim,' a new look at the life of Muhammad.
Why you should listen
A psychologist by training and Middle East reporter by experience, British-born Lesley Hazleton has spent the last ten years exploring the vast and often terrifying arena in which politics and religion, past and present, intersect. She's written about the history of the Sunni/Shi'a split, as well as books on two of the Bible's most compelling female figures: Mary and Jezebel.
Her latest book is The First Muslim, a new look at the life of Muhammad, the founder of Islam. In researching her book, she sat and read the full Koran again -- exploring the beauty and subtlety in this often-misquoted holy book. As she says: " I’m always asking questions — not to find “answers,” but to see where the questions lead. Dead ends sometimes? That’s fine. New directions? Interesting. Great insights? Over-ambitious. A glimpse here and there? Perfect."
What others say
“Very interesting perspective. Her talk has motivated me to read and learn more about the Koran and make up my own mind rather than get second hand information filled with hate.” — Alan Klein, commenting at Informed Comment,
Writer Lesley Hazleton is the author of 'The First Muslim,' a new look at the life of Muhammad.
Why you should listen
A psychologist by training and Middle East reporter by experience, British-born Lesley Hazleton has spent the last ten years exploring the vast and often terrifying arena in which politics and religion, past and present, intersect. She's written about the history of the Sunni/Shi'a split, as well as books on two of the Bible's most compelling female figures: Mary and Jezebel.
Her latest book is The First Muslim, a new look at the life of Muhammad, the founder of Islam. In researching her book, she sat and read the full Koran again -- exploring the beauty and subtlety in this often-misquoted holy book. As she says: " I’m always asking questions — not to find “answers,” but to see where the questions lead. Dead ends sometimes? That’s fine. New directions? Interesting. Great insights? Over-ambitious. A glimpse here and there? Perfect."
What others say
“Very interesting perspective. Her talk has motivated me to read and learn more about the Koran and make up my own mind rather than get second hand information filled with hate.” — Alan Klein, commenting at Informed Comment,
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mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
The life of Muhammad is
Combat and sex
And knowing God
God carries out the wishes of Mohammed when adopted son's wife Zaynab Bint jahsh
Adores beauty
God performs his desire to marry him immediately
What's new in the morality of Muhammad
Those women
Do you know the writer WS
Just go and ask her
A woman and know the feelings of women than me
And the attitude of Islam towards women
Do you know the Qur'anic verse that says if you are a turd, it was also said: women
And also women lack reason and religion
I do not know how to write her book about the morality of Muhammad
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
(Either bounce, Muslim women don't kill either originated or embraced Islam on this caper, if anything it shows disrespect towards Islam to mind women. Jurists here treat women as children not through apostasy, because his mind minus as drunk or crazy. Since women are mind and religion in Islam, they are treated like children.
This is an Islamic
Do you know that these Muslim writer
The position of women is very mild
I don't know how the writer wrote her new book
I think he has been granted several barrels of Saudi oil or may
This is an Islamic
Do you know that these Muslim writer
The position of women is very mild
I don't know how the writer wrote her new book
I think he has been granted several barrels of Saudi oil or may
Scimitar
Eschatologist
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
to--
icehorse
I give you two words
Of the Qur'an
I wish I could look for yourself analasmaa synonym in your own language
Words-the ****-you-"give the nature of women
And also your vulva
And these words from the Quran
In the original Arabic language
I'm not saying words from Ayr to prove if the Quran in the Arabic language search words
And if you want I'll help you too
Your author to what you want to learn from the Holy Quran
icehorse
I give you two words
Of the Qur'an
I wish I could look for yourself analasmaa synonym in your own language
Words-the ****-you-"give the nature of women
And also your vulva
And these words from the Quran
In the original Arabic language
I'm not saying words from Ayr to prove if the Quran in the Arabic language search words
And if you want I'll help you too
Your author to what you want to learn from the Holy Quran
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
the two words in arabic
and from qouran
is
الفرج
بضم الفاء والسكون على الراء
وايضا كلمة
نكاح --ومشتقاتها
انكحوا
and from qouran
is
الفرج
بضم الفاء والسكون على الراء
وايضا كلمة
نكاح --ومشتقاتها
انكحوا
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
keep trying Mahasn
Scimi
What this talk
Are you able to answer makes sense to me
If your lyrics book refuses to say to your daughter
الفرج والنكاح
How do you think that God revealed to his Prophet Muhammad
Do you think that this education is beneficial to humans