What are some of your thoughts about Pacifists?

[stvdv]

Ahimsa is different from pacifism. Pacifism is appeasement, which was tried by Krishna, but it failed.

"sva-dharmam api cāvekṣya, na vikampitum arhasi;
dharmyād hi yuddhah shreyo anyat, kṣatriyasya na vidyate." BG.2.31

Considering your duty (as a kṣatriya), there is no need to hesitate; no engagement better than fighting for dharma exists for a kshatriya.

True.

If you adhere to Dharma and therefore know that you are not the doer, there is perfect Ahimsa also (even if body parts fly all over the place)

 

[stvdv]

This is the second post where you simply tell me I'm wrong, but give no arguments for your POV. Oh well.

You are the one telling others "you are wrong". I applied here "do unto others, what others do unto you", to correct wrong

 

[oldbadger]

In another OP started by @firedragon , I answered his question, and in his OP I write about being a pacifist.
That made me think, how do other people react to someone who is a pacifist?

So the question may be, what is your view on pacifism and or pacifists?
Are you afraid of them?
Curious to why they think as they do?
Do pacifists create a danger to you as a person?

Do you trust people who identify as nonviolent and pacifistic?

NB: Discussion forum not Debate

I appreciate and respect pacifists and would prefer that they be my neighbours.
But in times of trouble I would keep them at distance if I can because they don't always want to assist others who are in danger.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Only God can, and He will.

Perhaps he will but he takes a long time doing it. Mirza 'Ghalib' said:

"ham ne maanā ki taġhāful na karoge, lekin
ḳhāk ho jā.eñge ham tum ko ḳhabar hote tak"

I agree that you will not ignore me, but I will turn in to ashes by the time you come to know.

Mirza Asadullah Baig Khan "Ghalib", 1797 – 1869

Do you believe that God made a flood to kill off most of the residents of the earth during Noah's time?

Do you believe that ..

 

[stvdv]

but give no arguments for your POV. Oh well.

I see you got the message. If you had added "it's my POV, you would not have heard me, but you phrased it as a claim, hence I was obliged to reply the way I did

 

[Spirit of Light]

I appreciate and respect pacifists and would prefer that they be my neighbours.
But in times of trouble I would keep them at distance if I can because they don't always want to assist others who are in danger.

Speaking only for myself: I would assist anyone as long it does not involve killing someone, That means I will put my own life at risk to save you or anyone else if you were wounded

 

[oldbadger]

Speaking only for myself: I would assist anyone as long it does not involve killing someone, That means I will put my own life at risk to save you or anyone else if you were wounded

How can you do that for sure, CC?
In helping another you might use more force than intended....adrenalin can cause such actions.
Small-Pacifism is highly respectable........ But then, many warriors believe in 'Do no Harm'.

CC, I've seen pacifists and other folks who stay back cause much harm, simply because they would not help a person being attacked. Like I say, they are ok as neighbours but not to be relied upon in grave dangers (from others).

 

[Spirit of Light]

How can you do that for sure, CC?
In helping another you might use more force than intended....adrenalin can cause such actions.
Small-Pacifism is highly respectable........ But then, many warriors believe in 'Do no Harm'.

CC, I've seen pacifists and other folks who stay back cause much harm, simply because they would not help a person being attacked. Like I say, they are ok as neighbours but not to be relied upon in grave dangers (from others).

I help those who do need help, the exception is if you or others asked me to kill or harm others, that I will not do.
I do not see anyone in this world as my enemy, so why would I want to harm them in the first place?

 

[RestlessSoul]

What a naive thing to say. If the allies had not fought the axis powers in WW2, you would be goosestepping in a Judenrein fascist state.

If the allies had not imposed such vengeful conditions on Germany at the treaty of Versailles, the Nazis would never have gained a foothold in the Weimar Republic. If all the European powers had not turned their economies into huge industrial war machines in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, then the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand by a Serbian nationalist would not have led to the "war to end all wars" (the one that singularly didn't).

No WWI would have meant no Nazi Germany and no Soviet Russia. Think how much human suffering would have been avoided if enough brave young men on all sides had joined the handful of conscientious objectors who refused to kill for their country. Or if the fraternisation between British and German soldiers over Christmas 1914 had spread along the entire Western front, as the commanders on both sides feared it would...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You are the one telling others "you are wrong". I applied here "do unto others, what others do unto you", to correct wrong

I don't just say "you are wrong." I give reasons and explanations why that is so. You did not.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

In another OP started by @firedragon , I answered his question, and in his OP I write about being a pacifist.
That made me think, how do other people react to someone who is a pacifist?

So the question may be, what is your view on pacifism and or pacifists?
Are you afraid of them?
Curious to why they think as they do?
Do pacifists create a danger to you as a person?

Do you trust people who identify as nonviolent and pacifistic?

NB: Discussion forum not Debate

Even the Lord Jesus Christ became angry and drove out the money-changers from the Temple.

We should be able to fight for what we believe is right.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Even the Lord Jesus Christ became angry and drove out the money-changers from the Temple.

We should be able to fight for what we believe is right.

I don't think this is a good example. I'm not a pacifist. I beleive in protecting my life and the lives of others. I'll do that as a person in the military, if my country is threatened, and I'll do it as a person on the street if I see someone being attacked.

There was nothing going on in the temple that was injuring others or killing them. The merchants were providing a valuable service, allowing Jews to purchase their sacrificial lambs at the site of the sacrifice, rather than having to herd them from far away places and taking the chance that they would be damaged along the way. It was a lovely service. It hurt no one.

What Jesus basically did was commit a crime. It's called vandalism and assault. It's wrong. If you want to add a religious dimension, he also desecrated the temple by bringing violence within its walls.

I would lay you odds that this act of violence was part of why Pilate did him in.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't think this is a good example. I'm not a pacifist. I beleive in protecting my life and the lives of others. I'll do that as a person in the military, if my country is threatened, and I'll do it as a person on the street if I see someone being attacked.

There was nothing going on in the temple that was injuring others or killing them. The merchants were providing a valuable service, allowing Jews to purchase their sacrificial lambs at the site of the sacrifice, rather than having to herd them from far away places and taking the chance that they would be damaged along the way. It was a lovely service. It hurt no one.

What Jesus basically did was commit a crime. It's called vandalism and assault. It's wrong. If you want to add a religious dimension, he also desecrated the temple by bringing violence within its walls.

I would lay you odds that this act of violence was part of why Pilate did him in.

It is interesting to hear the story from a Jewish perspective. If one only hears one side of the story one's judgment can easily be skewed.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I don't think this is a good example. I'm not a pacifist. I beleive in protecting my life and the lives of others. I'll do that as a person in the military, if my country is threatened, and I'll do it as a person on the street if I see someone being attacked.

There was nothing going on in the temple that was injuring others or killing them. The merchants were providing a valuable service, allowing Jews to purchase their sacrificial lambs at the site of the sacrifice, rather than having to herd them from far away places and taking the chance that they would be damaged along the way. It was a lovely service. It hurt no one.

What Jesus basically did was commit a crime. It's called vandalism and assault. It's wrong. If you want to add a religious dimension, he also desecrated the temple by bringing violence within its walls.

I would lay you odds that this act of violence was part of why Pilate did him in.

I respectfully disagree.

The outer court of the Temple were where foreigners (Gentiles) could come and worship.

Instead of finding a reverent environment - there was a marketplace.

There could have been a marketplace anywhere - why in the Temple?

The Temple is supposed to be a place of quiet reflection - but the Gentiles could not appreciate that - they were surrounded by a market place.

There were live animals being bartered and sold - in the Temple.

There were no synagogues or churches like today - this was the only place on Earth where people could come and offer their sacrifices.

Having a market in the Temple is like placing a barrier between the people and God - and it was most likely the only time these Gentiles would ever come to the Temple.

Rather than enjoying that experience - they are ushered in and ushered out - to make way for more business.

No opportunity to worship in a place of business.

The money-changers also charged fees for their services - which they have every right to do - but not in the Temple.

No one should be making a profit in the Temple.

They were bringing the world into the Temple.

Those people who set up shop in the Temple were the true vandals - blasphemers - who were desecrating the Temple with their greed.

Don't stand in the way of people who want to come to God.

Don't defile their holy places and make them empty of reverence and worship.

There is nothing wrong with righteous and justified anger.

The Lord Jesus Christ removed a cancer from the Temple.

Pilate gave the Lord to the mob because he feared the people - and he washed his hands of the deed - for he saw in fault in Him.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I respectfully disagree.

The outer court of the Temple were where foreigners (Gentiles) could come and worship.

Instead of finding a reverent environment - there was a marketplace.

But even if it were, the market still does not hurt anyone -- it is a service. You don't respond with violence to things that are not injuring people.

The Temple is supposed to be a place of quiet reflection - but the Gentiles could not appreciate that - they were surrounded by a market place.

Don't impose your own culture on another culture. It may be very spiritual to you to sit quietly ina place that has littel distraction -- many people do that. But that wasn't the idea of the temple. The idea of the temple was to offer sacrifice, and the market was there to further that.

Having a market in the Temple is like placing a barrier between the people and God - and it was most likely the only time these Gentiles would ever come to the Temple.

I disagree. At my synagogue, we have a Judaica shop that sells tallitot, books, jewish jewlery, shabbat candle holders, etc etc etc. Because I live a couple hours away from the nearest Judaica store, this makes my synagogues Judaica store an enormous convenience. It doesn't interfere with my capacity to pray or sing psalms at all.

At any rate, the point is that no one was being harmed by the market. And you don't respond violently to things that you simply disagree with. You reserve becoming violent for when another person is really being hurt.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

But even if it were, the market still does not hurt anyone -- it is a service. You don't respond with violence to things that are not injuring people.

Don't impose your own culture on another culture. It may be very spiritual to you to sit quietly ina place that has littel distraction -- many people do that. But that wasn't the idea of the temple. The idea of the temple was to offer sacrifice, and the market was there to further that.

I disagree. At my synagogue, we have a Judaica shop that sells tallitot, books, jewish jewlery, shabbat candle holders, etc etc etc. Because I live a couple hours away from the nearest Judaica store, this makes my synagogues Judaica store an enormous convenience. It doesn't interfere with my capacity to pray or sing psalms at all.

At any rate, the point is that no one was being harmed by the market. And you don't respond violently to things that you simply disagree with. You reserve becoming violent for when another person is really being hurt.

You are free to believe what you want.

There is nothing wrong with having a market outside of the Temple providing what was needed for within.

Is your Judaica shop placed in the center of where you worship?

Do they barter their wares - such as live animals - during your worship service?

Not off to the side. Not after the service is over.

But right in the center while it is happening?

Where in the Torah or Old Testament is buying and selling associated with Temple worship?

People came to the Temple to offer their sacrifices, make their offerings and offer prayers.

I don't believe the Lord Jesus Christ did anything wrong.

No one was hurt - but they got the message.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is your Judaica shop placed in the center of where you worship?

Do they barter their wares - such as live animals - during your worship service?

Not off to the side. Not after the service is over.

But right in the center while it is happening?

It is not in the sanctuary, just as the market was not in the inner courts where the sacrifices happened (remember that the whole purpose of the temple was to offer sacrifices). Nor do we have it open on Shabbat, which is our commanded day of rest--its not that its a distraction to worship, it wouldn't be, but because it is forbidden for us to do business on teh Shabbat. The market in the Temple would not have been conducting business on teh Shabbat either. But for example, on Sundays we have Sunday school for the kids, and the shop is always open then. Sometimes the women's group sponsers guest speakers, and the shop will be open then. You get the idea.

This is a pretty normal store. Stores these days don't barter. We use money. but then, you knew that already

Again, your premise is flawed. the center of worhsip in the Temple were the sacrifices being done in the inner courts. These sacrifices were completely removed from the market.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

It is not in the sanctuary, just as the market was not in the inner courts where the sacrifices happened (remember that the whole purpose of the temple was to offer sacrifices). Nor do we have it open on Shabbat, which is our commanded day of rest--its not that its a distraction to worship, it wouldn't be, but because it is forbidden for us to do business on teh Shabbat. The market in the Temple would not have been conducting business on teh Shabbat either. But for example, on Sundays we have Sunday school for the kids, and the shop is always open then. Sometimes the women's group sponsers guest speakers, and the shop will be open then. You get the idea.

This is a pretty normal store. Stores these days don't barter. We use money. but then, you knew that already

Again, your premise is flawed. the center of worhsip in the Temple were the sacrifices being done in the inner courts. These sacrifices were completely removed from the market.

None of this matters. All the courts of the Temple were considered holy ground.

The Jews at the time of the Lord Jesus Christ had no respect for Gods' promise that His Temple would be a house of prayer for all nations.

They were not giving the same respect to the Gentile's desire to worship that they did themselves and they polluted the House of God with commerce.

There was an entire city outside the walls of the Temple where business could be done - it should not have been done in the Temple.

Nothing you have said changes any of this.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

None of this matters. All the courts of the Temple were considered holy ground./QUOTE]
You are missing the point. The point of the temple wasn't for people to meditate in the outer courtyard. It was to offer sacrifice. The market facilitated that. It was a wonderful service.

 

[Subduction Zone]

For my benefit could you go into more detail please. This was a first for me, and I do not have a closed mind in this area. If this action was improper one would have thought that the Jews of that time would have opposed it. I have only heard the Christian side historically. I would like to hear the other side.